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[The Gentle Ben]

I posted the below in the recent "Dialogue Thread" discussing the DA2 VO-Paraphrase system, but despite not being about VO specifically, I feel it perhaps has equal relevance here (Besides I may have inadvertently killed that thread. This one's next). At the time we were discussing the Femshep/Jacob interactions, where players were surprised by the outcomes of their paraphrase selections.

Forgive the indulgence of quoting oneself.

The Gentle Ben wrote...
In my opinion, the Jacob/Femshep scenario is an example of one of the inherent risks and limitations of the player:VO cinematic dialogue/paraphrase system. The core issue is that the system is designed to both 1.) provide options for the player to select PC intent in their responses, and 2.) provide an implementation for the selected intent.

The potential pitfall is that under such a system only a limited number of implementations can be supported and the nature of those implementations lack prescient transparency (Which can lead to responses that ultimately differ in their implementation sufficiently from the intent of the player to be discordant or chagrin-inducing). In
games without the system in question, nearly the entire responsibility for the interpretation of the player's intent falls upon the dialogue/actions of the NPC the PC is interacting with. Typically, if the NPC's reaction is discordant, people are more apt to assume it is the NPC's fault for misinterpreting what they said, but if the PC's reaction is discordant the player is more likely to blame the game for misinterpreting what they intended.

I hope that makes sense. I wrote it in a hurry. All that said, I still prefer the story-telling approach of fully voiced cinematic dialogue, but when people (such as Sylvius) advocate for a full-text option in conjunction with the
paraphrase system, I am sympathetic. When prescience exists, such as in complete text (as opposed to paraphrase) systems, the player's options are still limited, but by better knowing what they are going to say they
can console themselves with the knowledge that they selected the option that best reflects their intent (even if no option perfectly reflects it), however, when the dialogue system interprets player intent in a discordant way, (and the player has no foreknowledge to anticipate this outcome) the player is more likely to feel betrayed.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 02 février 2011 - 08:48 .

[Lyssistr]

Addai67 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Ah, so then the term "streamlining" when used on the forums is even more meaningless than I had anticipated.  This is perhaps the... third or fourth unique definition of "streamlining" I've read. 

Out of curiosity, where did Bioware claim that the voiced protagonist was intended to draw a wider audience for the game?

In any case, the dismissive groupthink comment bothered me more anyway.

I can't account for how others use the term.  I mean it as the various ways in which the game is supposedly made less nerdy and "cumbersome"- don't have to change your companions' outfits, don't have to read through lists of dialogue options, etc.

As for groupthink, in early discussions of DA2 devs were saying things like "everyone hated the silent Warden" and then in the forums you get these threads cropping up saying "everyone hates a silent PC, time to move on".  As if this is a self-evident truth.  I'm just glad when I see some acknowledgement that it's not.  No need to get prickly.

tbh I believe this decission was based on reviews. Many DAO reviews seemed to go like

blah blah
nice game
blah blah
revives blah
blah blah
but the protagonist isn't VO'd!

It made sense for them to try & adjust according to what the reviewers suggested, in hope of more exposure, higher scores etc.

 Tbh I prefer a VOd protagonist, if the voiceacting is solid, so this is not one of the changes I'm bitter about. However, I don't think is a decission that came out of demand from the playerbase, rather it was some reviews that triggered this change.

[upsettingshorts]

FieryDove wrote...

Streamlining is the Ebil wheel and paraphrase system.

I'd even disagree entirely with that. I've spoken at length about how I view those as innovations, though they're still new and imperfect.  From what I've seen of DA2's setup I expect it to improve upon ME1-2 for example.

But that's not really my point - only to make clear that there are many different reasons for someone to prefer the VO, or the wheel/paraphrase, or anything else.  Saying or implying that it's some new crowd, or some other group I've never seen actually represent the position is either dishonest or lazy. 

FieryDove wrote...

(Your avatar still scares me) Sorries.

And Ron Swanson is still awesome.  No apology necessary.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 08:50 .

[FieryDove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Streamlining is the Ebil wheel and paraphrase system.

I'd even disagree entirely with that. I've spoken at length about how I view those as innovations.

Let's agree to diasgree. It put me off the ME series completely. Failure in my book. (Femshep and Jacob as a good example above by Ben)

[LdyShayna]

Nighteye2 wrote...
From what I've seen, I'd guess about 30-70% of gamers prefers a silent protagonist.

Hehe.  I see what you did there.

And FieryDove - yes, the paraphrase system would be the third step back from my point of view, as it completely inverts how I "play" dialog in these games.

[upsettingshorts]

FieryDove wrote...

Let's agree to diasgree. It put me off the ME series completely. Failure in my book. (Femshep and Jacob as a good example above by Ben)

An occasional failure of execution does not torpedo the concept in my book, even I avoid the FemShep/Jacob romance like the plague.  And a huge part of where I place the blame for that one lies with Jennifer Hale and whoever was directing her.  Not the dialogue system itself.

For example I'd cite pretty much every other conversation in the entire game(s) as resounding successes.  Given my position, would it be reasonable for me to abandon the idea of the paraphrase/dialogue wheel because one romance came off as uncomfortable and broken?

LdyShayna wrote...

And FieryDove - yes, the paraphrase system would be the third step back from my point of view, as it completely inverts how I "play" dialog in these games.

Whereas it more closely follows how I always have.  These are all steps sideways with benefits and drawbacks, some only experience the benefits, some only experience the drawbacks, and others still a mix of both.  That includes the VO, the paraphrase, etc.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 08:58 .

[FieryDove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

A failure of execution does not torpedo the concept in my book, even I avoid the FemShep/Jacob romance like the plague.  And a huge part of where I place the blame for that one lies with Jennifer Hale and whoever was directing her.

I wasn't trying to romance anyone. I simply wanted to get to know my teammates better. I learned the hard way. Plus it wasn't just that, even in 1 there were too many times I nearly fell off my chair because that's not what I thought I was going to say.
It's like in RL someone put a translator collar on me and everything I said translated to something entirely different. Like I was speaking an unknown dialect for a lost alien race or worse all curse-words and gibberish in that language. I'm not going to bother, too much *work* for a game.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Filament wrote...

But everyone did hate the silent Warden. Why can't you just join us and move on?

Your statement is false.  If only one person did not hate the silent Warden, then "everyone" is untrue. 

Several people have stated that they prefered, liked, or did not hate the silent Warden.

[Killjoy Cutter]

FieryDove wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

A failure of execution does not torpedo the concept in my book, even I avoid the FemShep/Jacob romance like the plague.  And a huge part of where I place the blame for that one lies with Jennifer Hale and whoever was directing her.

I wasn't trying to romance anyone. I simply wanted to get to know my teammates better. I learned the hard way. Plus it wasn't just that, even in 1 there were too many times I nearly fell off my chair because that's not what I thought I was going to say.
It's like in RL someone put a translator collar on me and everything I said translated to something entirely different. Like I was speaking an unknown dialect for a lost alien race or worse all curse-words and gibberish in that language. I'm not going to bother, too much *work* for a game.

One of my biggest complaints about the games with voiced PCs I've played is that sometimes, what I click on is so so so not what comes out. 

If it were up to me, there would either be no paraphrasing ever, or far far more careful paraphrasing.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 02 février 2011 - 09:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

FieryDove wrote...

I wasn't trying to romance anyone. I simply wanted to get to know my teammates better. I learned the hard way. Plus it wasn't just that, even in 1 there were too many times I nearly fell off my chair because that's not what I thought I was going to say.

I understand the position and maintain that I simply play differently and always have, so aside from isolated cases have never had such issues because I don't see the point in trying to figure out what my character is precisely going to do or say, as long as the tone, intent, and general reaction (including both the PC and the NPC) are consistent with my predictions.  And - again, infrequent exceptions aside - they always are.  Because the literal content of the line ultimately wasn't what concerned me in the first place, not even when it was all we had to go with in games like Baldur's Gate or Fallout.

Combine that with my overwhelming annoyance with inconsistency (NPCs talk, PC doesn't) and it's pretty clear to see why I'm on board with the wheel.  

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

If it were up to me, there would either be no paraphrasing ever, or far far more careful paraphrasing.

If it were up to you, I would be very upset with your game design.

If it were up to me, I would put a voice and a paraphrase and dialogue wheel system in every game that calls for PC and try to improve it with each one.

And if it were up to me, you would be very upset with my game design.

Maybe that's part of why it's not up to us.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

The Gentle Ben wrote...
 however, when the dialogue system interprets player intent in a discordant way, (and the player has no foreknowledge to anticipate this outcome) the player is more likely to feel betrayed.

That's why I could not understand why on Maker Breath some people could simply ignore this obvious. This happen not once but many times to the point I could no longer be able to roleplay Shephard. There are too much guessing around just to simply say Hi and too much monotonous voice, I may add. I end up releasing my frustration by shooting mini boss head-on with god mode on. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 02 février 2011 - 09:14 .

[The Gentle Ben]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
An occasional failure of execution does not torpedo the concept in my book. And a huge part of where I place the blame for that one lies with Jennifer Hale and whoever was directing her.

I agree (and on balance support both VO and the paraphrase system), my point was only that the degree of difficulty for successfully implementing the paraphrase system is considerably higher on a case by case basis, and therefore more prone to errors, which are in turn more glaring/off-putting as a consequence of the system itself. I also think it is understandable why the lack of transparency within the system in question leads to anxiety/hostility (despite not generally feeling it myself), and since the paraphrases are of necessity already linked to the VO and therefore subtitles, it is a reasonably supportable feature from a resource standpoint to allow for a full-text opt-in option, which means the exclusion is instead largely a design decision that may be worthy of reconsideration.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
For example I'd cite pretty much every other conversation in the entire game as resounding successes.

I had one or two more (although when viewed as a vast majority, I do concur), but in actuality, in those cases it was primarily my rationale that was not supported as opposed to my intent, but the paraphrase obscured this fact.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 02 février 2011 - 09:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

That's why I could not understand why on Maker Breath some people could simply ignore this obvious. This happen not once but many times to the point I could no longer be able to roleplay Shephard. There are too much guessing around just to simply say Hi and too much monotonous voice, I may add.

It isn't a case of "ignoring the obvious" but having different expectations and approaches.  I cannot ignore what didn't happen to me, because I wasn't looking for the same things you were to begin with in the first place.  Nor will I never start.

The Gentle Ben wrote...
(big snip).

I generally agree with the "show the full line when the paraphrase is highlighted" compromise, as long as I can turn it off.  Because I instinctively read it despite the fact I prefer not to have it at all, and then the repetition starts to get on my nerves.  This happened to me with the Witcher, for example.

Also, I agree that it is likely more difficult to pull off properly but I don't see that as evidence against it as a concept though I don't get the impression you do either. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 09:16 .

[Faust1979]

I hope the wheel stays in future Bioware games myself, some people think that even with a mute hero you have control over what you say. You don't really they are trying to tell a story and you can't roleplay your character the way you would with a pen and paper game. It's not really roleplaying if you're just selecting things that the programmers and writers want you to pick

[LdyShayna]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Whereas it more closely follows how I always have.  These are all steps sideways with benefits and drawbacks, some only experience the benefits, some only experience the drawbacks, and others still a mix of both.  That includes the VO, the paraphrase, etc.

Yes.  I guess it comes down to this: if they want to create some games that go down that path, that's peachy by me.  Though I would be SUCH a happy camper if everything they made was targeted at my preferences, I understand that's not going to happen.  I do object to those who say this is NOT a trade-off sorta thing, but an inevitable complete migration to an obviously superior style.  That's tiresome. 

BioWare is not going to change Dragon Age 2 in this regard in a way I would find meaningful.  There's really no middle ground I could reasonably ask for.  Well, aside from the possibility of a DLC adventure designed more towards my preferences, I guess.  I only hope, at this point, for some small acknowledgement from someone at BioWare that they understand where I'm coming from...and maybe some indication of whether or not it makes any difference.  *shrugs*

[eyesofastorm]

LdyShayna wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Whereas it more closely follows how I always have.  These are all steps sideways with benefits and drawbacks, some only experience the benefits, some only experience the drawbacks, and others still a mix of both.  That includes the VO, the paraphrase, etc.

Yes.  I guess it comes down to this: if they want to create some games that go down that path, that's peachy by me.  Though I would be SUCH a happy camper if everything they made was targeted at my preferences, I understand that's not going to happen.  I do object to those who say this is NOT a trade-off sorta thing, but an inevitable complete migration to an obviously superior style.  That's tiresome. 

BioWare is not going to change Dragon Age 2 in this regard in a way I would find meaningful.  There's really no middle ground I could reasonably ask for.  Well, aside from the possibility of a DLC adventure designed more towards my preferences, I guess.  I only hope, at this point, for some small acknowledgement from someone at BioWare that they understand where I'm coming from...and maybe some indication of whether or not it makes any difference.  *shrugs*

You're not going to get it.  You belong to a niche market.  Bioware has gotten too cool... too cool for school to care about niche audiences.

[Lyssistr]

eyesofastorm wrote...

LdyShayna wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Whereas it more closely follows how I always have.  These are all steps sideways with benefits and drawbacks, some only experience the benefits, some only experience the drawbacks, and others still a mix of both.  That includes the VO, the paraphrase, etc.

Yes.  I guess it comes down to this: if they want to create some games that go down that path, that's peachy by me.  Though I would be SUCH a happy camper if everything they made was targeted at my preferences, I understand that's not going to happen.  I do object to those who say this is NOT a trade-off sorta thing, but an inevitable complete migration to an obviously superior style.  That's tiresome. 

BioWare is not going to change Dragon Age 2 in this regard in a way I would find meaningful.  There's really no middle ground I could reasonably ask for.  Well, aside from the possibility of a DLC adventure designed more towards my preferences, I guess.  I only hope, at this point, for some small acknowledgement from someone at BioWare that they understand where I'm coming from...and maybe some indication of whether or not it makes any difference.  *shrugs*

You're not going to get it.  You belong to a niche market.  Bioware has gotten too cool... too cool for school to care about niche audiences.

That's my feeling as well, but for different reasons, not related to VO.

[FieryDove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't see the point in trying to figure out what my character is precisely going to do or say

I can make due with similar if I have too, just not "I disagree" and instead I stab someone. Or "Hi tell me about yourself" and get...well nvm, just no.

The sad part is I don't even know if the ME team is aware of people's concerns on this. Its not isloated to me.

I almost wish after DA2 they borrow the writers here for awhile for ToR. That has the same bells and whistles and it worries me a bit.

[TMZuk]

Faust1979 wrote...

I hope the wheel stays in future Bioware games myself, some people think that even with a mute hero you have control over what you say. You don't really they are trying to tell a story and you can't roleplay your character the way you would with a pen and paper game. It's not really roleplaying if you're just selecting things that the programmers and writers want you to pick

What a load of nonsense. Why do I feel like the Warden(s) was my characters, where as I am merely watching Shepard or Geralt of Rivia? Why is the Lone Wanderer and the Courier in Fallout 3 and New Vegas MY characters as well?

That's how it works for me, so perhaps you should stop making the assumption, that you know how every else feel and should react. If you prefer a voiced protagonist, good for you. DA2 grants your wish. I'm quite certain that TES: Skyrim will not, so your dream of seeing the silent protagonist gone forever is not likely to be granted.

Modifié par TMZuk, 03 février 2011 - 01:44 .

[upsettingshorts]

FieryDove wrote...

The sad part is I don't even know if the ME team is aware of people's concerns on this. Its not isloated to me.

I honestly think they do.  Though a lot of the confusion and inconsistency in ME1-2 I blame near-exclusively on the writing and the Paragon/Renegade dichotomy.  That's a different thread, though.

TMZuk wrote...

I'm quite certain that TES: Skyrim will not, so your dream of seeing the silent protagonist gone forever is not likely to be granted.

Bethesda killed off any hope of drawing my interest in their story long ago anyway.  Granted, their game worlds are absurdly fun to play in, which is why I buy their games.  My "character" in a Bethesda game might as well be nothing more than a gameplay mechanic.  I take him or her about as seriously I do the form my avatar takes in shooters.

But of course, I understand not everyone plays the same way I do.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 09:27 .

[Nighteye2]

LdyShayna wrote...

Nighteye2 wrote...
From what I've seen, I'd guess about 30-70% of gamers prefers a silent protagonist.

Hehe.  I see what you did there.

It's true, though - both sides like to claim the majority, but the reality is more likely to be that both sides are near evenly matched. I cannot tell which side is in the majority, but it's not impossible that it's for the silent protagonist. Either way, the group of people in favour of an unvoiced protagonist is big enough for Bioware to give some serious consideration, at the least.

[Faust1979]

TMZuk wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

I hope the wheel stays in future Bioware games myself, some people think that even with a mute hero you have control over what you say. You don't really they are trying to tell a story and you can't roleplay your character the way you would with a pen and paper game. It's not really roleplaying if you're just selecting things that the programmers and writers want you to pick

What a load of nonsense. Why do I feel like the Warden(s) was my characters, where as I am merely watching Shepard or Geralt of Rivia? Why is the Lone Wanderer and the Courier in Fallout 3 and New Vegas MY characters as well?

That's how it works for me, so perhaps you should top making assumptions that you know how every else feel and should react. If you prefer a voiced protagonist, good for you. DA2 grants your wish. I'm quite certain that TES: Skyrim will not, so your dream of seeing the silent protagonist gone forever is not likely to be granted.

where have I stated in this post that is how everyone feels? perhaps you missed the parts where I said me or I? I don't know why they are your characters I'm not you and can't predict what you're thinking when you play the game, but I find it hard thinking a character is mine when I'm holding a joystick and not in control of what they are saying where as when I'm playing a character in a pen n paper game I can control what my character says. There are things I wish I could have made the character say or want them to react in certain ways that just aren't in the game itself so to me they aren't true roleplaying games. Fun yes and well made  but not true roleplaying games. 

[Nozybidaj]

BW seems to be getting the hang of a voiced protagonist. I wouldn't mind seeing them stay with it. I don't prefer it, and that is probably why I like some other games much more than BW games, but they are good at it and it is a nice change once in a while.



So long as they can avoid the FemShep/Jacob type moments they will be fine.



That said, it certainly isn't time to "leave the mute hero behind". 2011's GotY is (most likely) going to have a mute protagonist.

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Bethesda killed off any hope of drawing my interest in their story long ago anyway.  Granted, their game worlds are absurdly fun to play in, which is why I buy their games.  My "character" in a Bethesda game might as well be nothing more than a gameplay mechanic.  I take him or her about as seriously I do the form my avatar takes in shooters.

But of course, I understand not everyone plays the same way I do.

I don't roleplay much in Bethesda games either, tbh.  The settings are kind of cartoony and being a stuffed shirt, I could never see myself writing fanfiction based on them, for instance, let alone the ridiculous amount I've now put to page for DA.

But DAO hit a sweet spot of mature fantasy and roleplay immersion for me that was a lot like the experience I had in MUSH (text RPG).   I'm just sorry to see that go.  *whimper*

[LdyShayna]

eyesofastorm wrote...
You're not going to get it.  You belong to a niche market.  Bioware has gotten too cool... too cool for school to care about niche audiences.

Heh.  Well, not being terribly cool myself, it wouldn't be too difficult for them to become too cool for me.  I'm just too uncool to take hints, perhaps? 

Maybe I should ask, "Are you breaking up with me, BioWare?" 

Modifié par LdyShayna, 02 février 2011 - 09:44 .