95 réponses à ce sujet

[Bluko]

You know I've been trying to think how I could possibly critique or add to your post. I honestly can't. It's like the OP Embraced Eternity with me or something. Is that wrong? Anyways this is like the first post I've seen that hasn't made me want to warp-detonate and throw a Pyjack into the Turian Councillor for the prize.

I dunno give AdmiralCheez the Achievement of "Feedback" Make a post on Insanity difficulty while in the Bioware forums being both reasonable and well written.

I should go.

Modifié par Bluko, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:52 .

[ShaggyWolf]

Bluko wrote...

You know I've been trying to think how I could possibly critique or add to your post. I honestly can't. It's like the OP Embraced Eternity with me or something. Is that wrong? Anyways this is like the first post I've seen that hasn't made me want to warp-detonate and throw a Pyjack into the Turian Councillor for the prize.

I dunno give AdmiralCheez the Achievement of "Feedback" Make a post on Insanity difficulty while in the Bioware forums being both reasonable and well written.

I should go.

Haha I love how you wrote that, and I agree. This is probably the first critique thread that didn't make me rage at my keyboard.

It's like... Cheez gets it... Cheez is The One.

Modifié par Valadras21, 31 janvier 2011 - 08:22 .

[GHOST OF FRUITY]

Great post AdmiralCheez - An example of what good feedback should be.

[Ahriman]

Really good conclusion, Cheez.. I even cannot add something to your list.
I'm agree with all what you wrote except one thing.

-Skills and squadmates.  Again, I
like the direction ME2 went in--it was nicely streamlined and forced
the player to think more carefully about where to spend squad points.  I
also liked how each squadmate had a unique set of powers and weapons so
that there was minimal overlap and no obviously superior combination. 
The one thing I could suggest is more opportunities for powers to branch off, instead of just one final evolution for each.  As it is, though, it works great.

Actually on 30 lvl almost all skills will be on maximum, you just choose which of them will be upgraded first.
In ME1 it was impossible to feel the difference between skill A with 5 points and same skill with 6 points. This problem stayed in ME2. Just remember KOTOR system, there was only three stages for each skill but you can see the difference between them. And there was a lot of those skills.

[Vena_86]

I think you sugar coated the Skills for Squad Mates a bit much. Lets be honest, there is a lot of overlapping skills, because there arn't many in total. Tali and Legion even have the exact same powers without loyalty.
But yeah, this is a great post summing up the main issues that have been discussed since ME2 was released in a clean and understandable way. If BioWare takes this as a general guideline I would be super happy.

Modifié par Vena_86, 31 janvier 2011 - 08:50 .

[CannotCompute]

I fully agree with what Terror_K said a page back.

[galland]

We should bottle this thread and use it as a biotic restorative/thermal clip+10!!!!!

Well done. Cookies all round!

[Funker Shepard]

Have to applaud the OPs well thought-out post here, and say that I agree with most parts. I do disagree when it comes to heatsinks - as while I think their un-universe retconning is kind of painful - they did, in combination with with the regenerating health (which was retconned a lot better...) IMO vastly add to the tension and rhythm of the combat gameplay.



Apart from that, count me in as another one who can pretty much subscribe to those sentiments, certainly regarding the Mako/Hammerhead, and the Mako's problems being more related to level design (in the SIDE missions, the main storyline Mako missions rocked!) than the vehicle itself. Situation is partially reversed with the Hammerhead, where the fragility and lack of hud for the vehicle become a primary issue (even though the lava platforming, lack of saving etc. don't exactly... stun me with awesome, either...)



I also had some positive feedback revelation on the scale of removing famine from Africa, but I got a phone call in the middle of this post, and will have to get back on that, if I ever catch that revelation again.

[Lumikki]

Good post OP, I agree most, but not everyting.

Here is what I little bit disagree.

Squad armor.

It should have been better if armors would have used when situation required it and normal cloths when situation was good for them. Because normal cloths gives characters more personality, while armors fit better in combat.

Experience

This is 100% useless feature. I mean showing experience has no meaning to anyone else than player who wanna see numbers. Every number what has no real meaning in game world will lower impression of the game world and making it more like game of numbers.

Heat sinks

While overheat system or hybrid looks good in paper and lore point. There is little problems in it. Mostly it promote more open area close combat or stand still combat. Meaning if you aren't strong enough to come out of cover, it promote use same best weapon from behind same safe cover combat. Other possibilitity is that combat is too much gear based what means covers aren't needed and then it's open area combat, because you ability do damage and take damage (armors) is bigger than enemies. So, if we look termal clip based combat, it was more like avoid damage, stay in cover, but the picking clips forced player out from cover. Also there wasn't enough gear based gameplay to stay long in open. So, termal clip based combat feeled more like modern warfare (avoid damage), while overheat system was more like middle age combat (high defence). Point is that forcing player out of cover to pick clips and not allow to have higher enough of defence to stay open areas long, is what made the combat work better and be more modern warfare like.

Basicly all others I agreeded one way or other.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:36 .

[Fredvdp]

Since Preston is doing a lot of research on the forums these days, I'll just repeat what I have said before hoping he reads this. I was very disappointed with the user interface in the PC version of ME2 and sometimes I wish Demiurge handled the PC port. Every single WRPG I have played had menu shortcuts, except Mass Effect 2. Press J to go to your journal is impossible and there isn't even an ini tweak for that. I would also like to have double click and mouse wheel support in menus. Mass Effect 2 on PC felt like a console game on an emulator.

[Funker Shepard]

I think I remember what I meant to say, even though it's less of a revelation that I'd hoped. Mostly that we would steer clear of the DAO style "say the right things" loyalty shopping. While the ME2 system was simplistic, I think it allowed you generally more options for roleplaying your character as you would like to, instead of trying to second guess what the NPCs want you to say. I understand that Bio are trying something different for DA2, but... Even if VO and practicalities call for squadmate specific missions, I'd like them to revolve around something else than "winning them to my side" this time around...

Terror_K wrote...
Preferably squaddies would have their civvie gear and their combat gear, or at least an alternate or fixed get-up for dangerous locations that automatically triggers (like how the helmets/masks already do this when needed, but have the entire costume change).

Had to bring this one out separately. I think this would probably be the best way to go, if they are set on maintaining a clear visual image for each character in most circumstances (which would appear to be the reason for the ME2 approach).

Edit: I also think that Lumikki above is pretty much on the money on the (few) things I disagree with the OP.

Modifié par Funker Shepard, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:42 .

[War Houndoom]

Might as well add my two cents.

Galaxy Map = I actually saw improvement from the the first games map, infact if I remember correctly the Mass Effect 2 version of the galaxy map was to be thee "original" version in the first place. One of the only problems is that felt too empty. I mean we have a whole galaxy to explore and the number of uncharted worlds they gave us was slim as best. There was a sense of yearning for more exploration of new worlds, new species, and archaeological discovery.

Sqaudmate Armor = Sqaudmate armor needs to be updgraded to equal level as Shepards in terms of customization and variety. It was uber annoying not to be able to give anyone the proper armor they needed...a.k.a. Jack and Miranda. Jacks armor was so ugly that it turned me off and I never used her as a proper squadmate. You guys should bring back an updated version of the inventory system but make it like the upgraded ME-2 version of Shepards locker.

Exploration = Exploration took a step back from the original game big time and there really wasn't any improvement. Firstly the whole game felt too linear in the sense that your choices were controlled by who you chose to recruit first. Secondly it wasn't fair that if you wanted to explore near the end of the game you could save all of your crew. That severely limited the enjoyment of the game. Not to mention that there wasn't enuff sidequests nor was there enuff expansion on the protheans.

Ships and Vehicels = Bring back an upgraded veriosion of the Mako plain and simple. Also keep the Hammerhead but improve it. What really needs to happen is the Normandy needs to be made flyable and included in game play such as space combat and planet exploration.

Experience and leveling = This whole thing needs to be brought back to the original system of ME-1. Come on Bioware we arn't children and we can comprehend "complicated" things. Stop treating us like children and dumbing things down.

Paragon/Renegade system = I really had no problems with this except the fact the there were no options of renegade choices in Lair of The Shadow Broker and that really limited the style of gameplay I wanted to choose.

Powers = This is where you really messed up Bioware!!! For god sakes you ruined the whole thing. For Example great job limiting squadmates to only 4 powers. Also great job making powers useless on HIGHER DIFFICULTY LEVELS. Though I did like the way powers were upgraded threw leveling.

Fix Helmets = Fix them for god sakes, it's been a year now.

Romance =  Add a Homosexual Romance option. This is the 21st century. It is reasonalbe to assume that Shepard could be a Homosexaul given his or her preferences. Shepards sexual orientation should be up to the player's discretion, not up to the Developers because the PLAYER is in direct control of Shepard.

DLC = Add more please.

I'll add more later but I'm tired lol.

Modifié par War Houndoom, 31 janvier 2011 - 12:16 .

[Raizo]

Bluko wrote...

You know I've been trying to think how I could possibly critique or add to your post. I honestly can't. It's like the OP Embraced Eternity with me or something. Is that wrong? Anyways this is like the first post I've seen that hasn't made me want to warp-detonate and throw a Pyjack into the Turian Councillor for the prize.

I dunno give AdmiralCheez the Achievement of "Feedback" Make a post on Insanity difficulty while in the Bioware forums being both reasonable and well written.

I should go.

It is a very good post. I don't agree with everything the OP said ( I don't mind Heat Sinks for example ) but I more or less am onboard with everything else.

[Fraevar]

Great post, AdmiralCheez - really glad you took the time, and I agree with pretty much all you said. Props for mentioning the femShep animations, especially

[Para Pett]

Well put OP, and also well done to Terror_K.  They have put down how I feel about ME2, I just want to expand on something Terror wrote:

Terror_K wrote...

-Paragon/Renegade system. 
The problem too is that the self-feeding nature limited roleplaying, ultimately forcing you to be pretty much either full on Paragon or Renegade and without letting you truly explore the grey in-between. Especially if you wanted to be able to succeed at some of the bigger Charm/Intimidate moments such as in Miranda and Jack's confrontation and being able to choose Morinth or not, etc. It basically forced players to constantly go for one path just so they could pull off these dialogue choices. Something needs to be done to split the ability to choose away from the meter itself, whether it be going back to having two separate skills or just having one "Persuade" style skill.

I think giving Shepard a skill branch for persuade would be the best way to encourage your own type of play (going into that grey area).  So, if you want to be your enemies worse nightmare but your friends best mate you can.  At the moment, if you try to do both, you end up with neither paragon or renegade points high enough to succeed in the pivitol points of the game, Tali / Legion, Mairanda / Jack.  Of course, talent points would have to be looked at, depending of course, on how Bioware handle skill trees etc. But those who invest in persuade skill branch, will be awarded more conversation choices and better discounts at stores.

Modifié par beefcake 85, 31 janvier 2011 - 01:50 .

[lovgreno]

To OP: Now this is a great example of constructive and encouraging critique. Well written.



I basicaly agree with everything. I just got one thing to add: BioWare, take your time to make the game please. There was years between ME1 and ME2 but that didn't stop ME2 to become a great, and well deserved, sucess in the sales. I know you can make great games if you realy want to and get the time to do it. This is a great opportunity for you to make your brand stand for top quality.

[Lumikki]

beefcake 85 wrote...

Well put OP, and also well done to Terror_K.  They have put down how I feel about ME2, I just want to expand on something Terror wrote:

Terror_K wrote...

-Paragon/Renegade system. 
The problem too is that the self-feeding nature limited roleplaying, ultimately forcing you to be pretty much either full on Paragon or Renegade and without letting you truly explore the grey in-between. Especially if you wanted to be able to succeed at some of the bigger Charm/Intimidate moments such as in Miranda and Jack's confrontation and being able to choose Morinth or not, etc. It basically forced players to constantly go for one path just so they could pull off these dialogue choices. Something needs to be done to split the ability to choose away from the meter itself, whether it be going back to having two separate skills or just having one "Persuade" style skill.

I think giving Shepard a skill branch for persuade would be the best way to encourage your own type of play (going into that grey area).  So, if you want to be your enemies worse nightmare but your friends best mate you can.  At the moment, if you try to do both, you end up with neither paragon or renegade points high enough to succeed in the pivitol points of the game, Tali / Legion, Mairanda / Jack.  Of course, talent points would have to be looked at, depending of course, on how Bioware handle skill trees etc. But those who invest in persuade skill branch, will be awarded more conversation choices and better discounts at stores.

If anyone feels that they are force to be either full Paragon or Renegade because game system, these players are METAGAMERS. That is FACT. Roleplaying is limited by THREE choises in right side of dialogs, paragon, neutral and renegade.

[-Skorpious-]

Hats off to the OP for creating such a detailed, informative post. It's also a huge plus for me as well, since I largely agree with just about everything you said. =p



However, I would like to add my two cents by stating my desire for a return to the classic "sci-fi" music of ME1. If ME2 had the same basic music as ME1 the atmosphere would have improved tenfold in my eyes (yes, the music is that important to me).

[Rune-Chan]

Very well said and agreed on almost every single point.



The only disagreement is that I don't like global cool-downs, I think they should have a hybrid between ME and ME2's cool-down system.



Basically have Biotics, Tech Powers and Unique/Shepard powers (Unity for example) each have their own cool-down. So you can't spam powers but can still multi-task. It's really daft that I cannot revive squad members because I just decided to use Adrenaline Rush.

[CroGamer002]

+1 @AdmiralCheez

[habitat 67]

-Skorpious- wrote...
However, I would like to add my two cents by stating my desire for a return to the classic "sci-fi" music of ME1. If ME2 had the same basic music as ME1 the atmosphere would have improved tenfold in my eyes (yes, the music is that important to me).

The music is the one thing I miss more than anything.

[Hanover Fist 1970]

Great post OP, I agree. ME2 is a good game, but I would have preferred something more like the original in a lot of its areas



Here is hoping ME3 pays a little more attention to ME1.

[ZLurps]

Thanks for OP, excellent post!

If there is anything I can add.. Small things. Adverts, news, overheard conversations, etc. are important parts of ME universe. For example how player can overhear discussions crew members are having with each others adds dimension to them, they have life outside of Normandy and Cerberus...
Adverts on Citadel are fun but also add to atmosphere. Newscasts while having tidbits about consequences of player actions in ME1 also give information about what is happening in galaxy and what kind of place is the world of ME and so on.

I don't see those things mentioned too often but I think it's because they were inserted to the game so well. Players barely notice how the world is made so immersive and that I think is the best measure of success in this regard. Awesome job BioWare, I hope these things will be part ME3 too.


Then to OP. I left sections that cover elements I don't have any real opinion out.

AdmiralCheez wrote...

-The Galaxy Map.  ME1's was virtually perfect (apart from the fact that it didn't tell you which systems you'd already visited, which could get pretty frustrating).  Oh man, did this get the little astronomy nerd in me going.  It was a beautiful, easy-to-use interface that made me feel like I was actually plotting a course for a starship and checking out alien planets from orbit.  Wow.  I don't understand why you guys went and changed it in ME2 (props for trying something new, at least), but turning navigation into hokey little mingames that cost me time and money took the fun out of it for me.  My ability to zoom around the galaxy at will was suddenly castrated by my Cerberus paycheck.  Not only that, but I had to spend time and money buying fuel and mining if I wanted to finish the game without losing half my team.  Now, I'm all for realism and careful resource management, but not at the cost of player enjoyment.  It wasn't a big deal, no, but bringing back the ME1 galaxy interface will make me squee joyously.

Agreed and labels in ME2 Galaxy map that show which worlds I have explored and locations of missions and assignments is a great feature.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-Squadmate Armor.  I have no problem with Jack running around shirtless, but doing so in a blizzard while being shot at is insane, even for her.  While I despised ME1's inventory and was glad to see it go, I sort of miss being able to put everyone in Phoenix armor for the lulz.  At the very least, give everyone the option of wearing armor in appropriate places.  At best, give us the option to customize it (and some folks wouldn't mind the return of light armor for spellcaster-type Shepards as well).  Of course, if you don't, I'm not gonna fuss about it.  After all, I love your character designs.  Best regards to Matt Rhodes, for that man is a BAMF.

Agreed.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-Exploration.  The first time I played ME1 and landed on an uncharted world, I was beyond wowed.  I remember hopping out of the Mako and walking up a hill, where I was greeted by a blazing sun peeking through a distant cloudbank, with a giant moon looming high above it.  It was like I really was the first person to step on that planet, and suddenly I remembered why I dreamed of being an astronaut as a kid.  However, the thrill wore off when I realized that pretty much every world looked like that, except with different colors and a merc base in the other corner of the map.  Maybe if these landing zones weren't so copy-paste, it wouldn't have recieved as much criticism as it did.  However, I think cutting out wide, open spaces like this was a mistake.  Improve, Bioware, don't remove!

Agreed.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-Vehicles.  I know the Mako recieved a lot of hate, but I think that's not really its fault: the rough and repetitive terrain was to blame.  Sure, the Hammerhead was a lot faster and easier to control, but it had crap weapons and zero armor/shields.  Maybe the best solution is to combine the two somehow, or perhaps have them both?  Other games include multiple vehicles with no problem, so really the only issue here is whether or not we can fit another tank in the cargo hold.  We can use the Mako for heavy combat, and switch to the Hammerhead for recon and quick snatch-and-grabs.  I dunno, just throwing out my goofy ideas.  Really, whether a vehicle's included or not isn't going to be a gamebreaker for me, but like I said with exploration, sometimes it's worth trying to improve something as opposed to cutting it entirely.  You've got one more shot at this, Bioware, so do it right!

Agreed.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-Interaction.  The thing I love most about Mass Effect (2) is its wonderful cast of characters.  At times I was duped into thinking of them as real people, and thus I made an effort to look after them.  However, I was a little disappointed that they didn't really act as a team.  They hardly ever talked to one another.  Now, it's hell to program unique conversations between all members of the squad when you have so many of them, but the elevator convos (which used an overlapping question-response-reaction formula that allowed for more dialogue with less lines) and loyalty conflicts proved that you can do it.  Just a little more of that, enough to make it seem like the team is a team, would be great.  Also, more conversations with the team in general would be nice; it really sucked when characters would arbitrarily cut me off because I didn't romance them.  Shepard shouldn't have to resort to prostitution for the sake of a friendly chat.

Agreed.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-Level design.  Both ME1 and ME2 suffer from the rooms-with-boxes curse.  ME1 was a little too bland, while ME2 was too boxed in.  This resulted in things getting repetitive after a while.  I'd love to see ME1's opennes combined with ME2's intricacy, if possible.  Also, multiple paths or ways of solving a problem are good, such as with Noveria and Tali/Zaeed's loyalty missions.  Just a touch more of that would be marvelous.  No matter what you decide to do, though, variation is key.  Make each fight feel fresh, each location feel unique.  I know you can do it because I've seen you do it: Mass Effect 1's main quests, ME2's Suicide Mission and DLC, etc.  Just stick to it, because when you're at your best, you're awesome.  When you're at your wost, though, you're repetitive.  Repetition is kind of boring.

Agreed.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-Endgame.  Okay, I had to include this section for the sole purpose of letting you guys know how unbelieveably awesome the end levels of ME1 and ME2 were.  Everything from Virmire/The Reaper IFF on had my heart pounding, and I (among others) really want to see you guys top this.  The Battle of the Citadel was intense, sure, but the stuff you implimented in the Suicide Mission--the idea that everything you had done in the game up to that point could affect the final outcome--was brilliant.  I am really hoping to see everything from all three games come together in ME3's final battle, with all important decisions that you made up to that point either helping or hindering your final effort.  It will be a serious challenge to top the awesomeness that took place beyond the Omega 4 Relay, but if you do, expect me to send you cookies and love letters.

Agreed.

AdmiralCheez wrote...
-One more thing.  Just a bit of personal imput here, but whatever you do, don't reduce ME2's entire squad to emails and two-minute cameos.  I understand that squadmates are the most labor and resource-intensive thing in a game like this, but putting in the extra effort here would really make a lot of fans happy.  I'm not a believer in wussing out on a whole character just because he or she happens to be dead in a small amount of saves.  Yeah, they can't have a plot-essential role (since you can't exactly advance the story if you're dead), and I'm perfectly happy with them being non-recruitable so long as their new roles are done well, but you guys have a reputation for going above and beyond people's expectations, especially with content not all players will see.

Agreed.

[kmcd5722]

Pretty much agreed on everything. I went back and played ME1 for the first time since beating ME2 multiple times, and I can where the improvements needed to be made from the original. That being said, I don't agree with all the changes made, and thank you AdmiralCheez for hitting on these points.



The only thing that I wish I could see was a little more diversity on the side of the weapons, as you pointed out. The upgrade system in ME1 was a bit tedious at times, while the upgrade system in ME2 felt too passive. I preferred the customization of ME1 but not necessarily the excessive surplus of items in the inventory for incrementally small improvements. I would like to physically "feel" the upgrades, by taking a hybrid of both systems. (Dare I say that adding in more options in my opinion, this would add make ME3 feel more like an RPG. Jeez, what a stigmatized word.)



You can research various upgrades and/or find them in the field, and have all of them back on the Normandy or Weapon Loadouts, and then select from various upgrades which ones you would like to use for an upcoming mission. I am not super excited about mining, as it always became a time filler for me, but, if there was someway to work in an effective hybrid system, I think mining could fill less a role than it did in ME2. As an aside, this hybrid section would include ammo powers, which in my mind, should not be powers at all, and be more along the lines of ME1.



The galaxy map is also a retcon in ME2. Zulu pointed this out, as I had forgotten, that clusters had secondary relays that linked to other smaller systems (as stated in the Codex), thus completely negating the need for fuel/"driving" the Normandy in ME2. However, being able to know which systems I have visited for completion was an excellent addition to the map in ME2.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Agree with OP on the galaxy map Me1 was fine just put in the pointer tabs of ME2 so I know where POI are and don’t have to log out to check my journal to figure out where I was suppose to go.





Give jack a shirt and make her wear armor in combat



Give Miranda combat armor



Give Samara a shirt that covers her chest.



SB has finally beginning to show Mshep as having some feelings please make him keep doing inflection and feeling in his voice through out ME3! No brick Sheps plz



LI’s imported from ME2 move forward, become evolved, strengthened, and deepened in a connection way.



Can I please get a choice as to whom my XO is really just being able to choose between Miranda, Garrus, and Jacob is fine.



Can we also get rid of both observation decks and make them into more militant friendly spaces the ship isn’t a pleasure cruise. Also kill the fish tank and ship collection or at least give players the option of scrapping those and replacing them with more useful space fillers. Really in my cabin they’re going to waste.



Inventory give us back more inventory and customization options!



Unique squad armor I liked being able to upgrade the armor in ME but it was usually a color change definitely evident for Tali can they have 2 -3 really different styles of armor not a color change.



We don’t need 80 uncharted worlds but can we have some please? Mix them up in terrain have barren, fields, and jungles. And please design it with the Mako in mind! Limit those knife edge hills.



Speaking of Mako tweaks

+ antiroll over chase that allow the wheels to sense where grip is needed so it won’t roll over for stupid things like using the thrusters at the wrong time could do.



+ Allow it to still be it’s tanky self and run over those colossi!



+ Keep strong shields, Keep thrusters but balance them so it doesn’t make the Mako wobble in mid air thrusters are meant to stabilize not destabilize!



+ keep the ability to fix on sight but allow for primary and secondary gun usage so you can at least defend yourself while you wait for those fixes



+ Don’t make the mako dependant on metagel you have instead if a tech is present you can fix unlimited times but if no tech is present give a reasonable limit to fixes.



Will add to my list later….