196 réponses à ce sujet

[Praetor Knight]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Praetor, I definitely see where you're coming from. ME2 feels like it's trying to copy other third person shooters. By clarifying that you're not loading magazines, but rather disposable heatsinks, this problem is fixed. Your points are also very valid. However, I do find it likely that many soldiers would've stuck with the old heatsinks, as ammo is plentiful to Shepard who can kill people like it's nobody's business, but your average soldier won't get as many kills as Shepard, and as such won't have as many opportunites to loot ammo. As such, I still see the mass adaption of thermal clip technology unlikely.

The way I thought about the retrofit is it would be like replacing the trigger mechanism in a contemporary weapon from semi-auto fire to full-auto fire.

So the weapon is still familiar to the user, with the only difference being how many rounds are fired per trigger pull, with the changing of the trigger mechanism.

With Omnitools, the issues of maintaining the supply of Thermal Clips should not be a problem with enough scrap lying about to convert into omnigel and then into more Thermal Clips.

And I figure that all those clips lying about in unexpected places are there because the scrap has already been converted into Thermal Clips for game streamlining purposes.

So Shep only needs to walk over them to pick them up.

I wonder how ME3 will handle Thermal Clips, since this subject is brought up often.

I just hope they're here to stay with minor tweaks and improvements.

[Sursion]

I can't believe the game has been out for a year and people are still bringing this up.

[Praetor Knight]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

If, as I said before, they were to make them universal in nature (as the codex suggests they should be), you could get away with just having a single counter indicating the number of thermal clips you have in reserve.

Really, I think the main issue here is that, despite the lore maintaining that it's all about heat management, the system is identical to any old ammo system; for example, popping out a thermal clip that is only half filled (half-empty, in ammo terms) means that you only lose half a clips worth of reserve heat capacity. 

I like your suggestion, but imo it would be best flipped - use a bar to indicate the thermal clip currently in the weapon, and if you don't empty it all the way in a battle it'll refill/"cool down" after combat ends. And have a number indicating how many thermal clips Shep has left in a universal reserve pool. 

Well, I think they are universal. I imagine that Thermal Clips work like contemporary speedloaders, where the Thermal Clips do not go inside the weapons, only the heat sink material carried in the Thermal Clips are used inside the weapons. If I remember correctly, one can use a single Thermal Clip pickup to refill multiple weapons and there are upgrades that increase the heat sink count for Shotguns and SMG's, so it's a plausible theory.

Also it is said in game that Lithium is used in weapoms' heat sinks and Lithium has a low melting point with a high boiling point meaning that for the ejected material in ME2, Lithium would have to be in a liquid state (like a Thermal Grease) to be able to glow orange as they do and work as a heat sink, which can also help explain how variable the Thermal Clip pickups are.

So at the very least, I think that what is shown in the HUD is what is stored inside the weapons themselves, so that is possibly why the Capacity of one weapon is not transferable to another in game.



And I agree that Shepard should carry spare Thermal Clips on the Armor to be able to refill the weapons.

Gameplay-wise not sure how it could be implemented seamlessly, but carrying spare Thermal Clips on the Armor could be another way that Shep refill the weapons' capacity after a fight being able to swap the Thermal Clips between the weapons.

[marshalleck]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I wonder why more people bring up the thermal clips than something like, oh, I don't know, the "wearing a piece of armor or having a shield up makes people immune to singularities" thing.

lulz, consistent lore

Because it seems most people play as soldier, so they'd know nothing about how biotics work (or don't)

[Soahfreako]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

rabidhanar wrote...

oh its this thread again.

OP pelase use search next time, it is easy and you do not have to add anything...just read some posts on the old thread and feel happy about your opinion.

Just because something comes up in the search doesn't mean it's not threadworthy.  If it's not been discussed recently, then I don't see the problem with bringing it up for discussion.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I wonder why more people bring
up the thermal clips than something like, oh, I don't know, the "wearing
a piece of armor or having a shield up makes people immune to
singularities" thing.

lulz, consistent lore

It was overshadowed by the large changes to the health and shield system's changes in general.

To bad this topic has been made. Hundreds of times. I'm not over exaggerating.

[Atmosfear3]

hey look, its this thread again :/

[TheBlackBaron]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
Well, I think they are universal. I imagine that Thermal Clips work like contemporary speedloaders, where the Thermal Clips do not go inside the weapons, only the heat sink material carried in the Thermal Clips are used inside the weapons. If I remember correctly, one can use a single Thermal Clip pickup to refill multiple weapons and there are upgrades that increase the heat sink count for Shotguns and SMG's, so it's a plausible theory.

Also it is said in game that Lithium is used in weapoms' heat sinks and Lithium has a low melting point with a high boiling point meaning that for the ejected material in ME2, Lithium would have to be in a liquid state (like a Thermal Grease) to be able to glow orange as they do and work as a heat sink, which can also help explain how variable the Thermal Clip pickups are.

So at the very least, I think that what is shown in the HUD is what is stored inside the weapons themselves, so that is possibly why the Capacity of one weapon is not transferable to another in game.

Yes, one thermal clip pickup does refill the reserves for all the weapons you're carrying. My theory is that this is to show that they are indeed universal in nature, and that theoretically they should be drawing from a single pool. But if the reserve capacity of ALL weapons was to go down when reloading thermal clips in one weapon, that would again have caused people to howl about how limiting the new system was, even if it was more consistent with the lore. So it's another example of gameplay and story segregation. 

You may very well be right, though. I suppose only the writer (Drew, I would assume) who came up with the system would know. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 31 janvier 2011 - 03:58 .

[Ulzeraj]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

hey look, its this thread again :/

"... is the search button. This handy little fella will allow you to find threads of days gone by."

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 31 janvier 2011 - 04:03 .

[madmansfury]

Ulzeraj wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

hey look, its this thread again :/

"... is the search button. This handy little fella will allow you to find threads of days gone by."

even if you bring up an old post by using the search button, people will still complain

[Ulzeraj]

madmansfury wrote...

Ulzeraj wrote...

Atmosfear3 wrote...

hey look, its this thread again :/

"... is the search button. This handy little fella will allow you to find threads of days gone by."

even if you bring up an old post by using the search button, people will still complain

But what about all those pages of discussion about the pros and cons, and knowledge acquired? Unless you want to just QQ... in this case there is no reason you should not be ignored.

And by the way... the classic thread about thermal clips contains a developer post about why and how that was made. See what I did?

Modifié par Ulzeraj, 31 janvier 2011 - 04:28 .

[SithLordExarKun]

JKoopman wrote...



Do we really need another 20+ page thread regurgitating the same arguments?

Yes.

[Glorious_Leader]

If this discussion is such a big deal that it warrants elitist snobbery in any thread on the topic, then the classic thread on the topic should be stickied. If it's not that frequent of a topic, then the users here need to chill out. If there were four different threads on this topic on the front page, then I'd understand those that keep complaining. However, considering that forums are largely for discussion, and this is something that obviously many have noticed and felt warranted discussion, you should all try not to get your panties in a bunch when someone brings it up.

[MSparkyPants]

Had a hell of a time on Insanity with my infiltrator. Kept running out of clips for the Widow :/ With some tweaking, (perhaps having weapons automatically revert back to the overheat system when clips are no longer available?) it shouldn't be that big of a deal with ME3. Or at least double the amount of the little buggers on the maps.

[Zulu_DFA]

The Codex explanation is redundant. It's a retcon. Guns always used the thermal clips (proof: Jacob's loyalty mission, etc.)

Alternative: edit your "coalesced.ini" file.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 31 janvier 2011 - 06:14 .

[Dreggon]

I've been sitting on this theory for a while, and I may as well post it:



Thermal clips are a large meta-war tactic used by the geth. The geth are well aware that thermal clips are inferior to the best available weaponry - i.e. Spectre guns - but know that Spectre guns are not universally available to armies and soldiers. Therefore, to weaken the armies of their foes, they created thermal clips for the inferior weapons, in such a way as to cause their enemies (humans, asari, turians, etc.) to adapt their weaponry to utilize the new thermal clips.



Now every army in the Mass Effect galaxy uses thermal clips, and in a few years the geth would have sufficiently advanced technology to render thermal clips obsolete, which is what the Citadel races would have developed if it weren't for the geth's interference.



TLDR: geth are geniuses.

[Praetor Knight]

Dreggon wrote...

I've been sitting on this theory for a while, and I may as well post it:

Thermal clips are a large meta-war tactic used by the geth. The geth are well aware that thermal clips are inferior to the best available weaponry - i.e. Spectre guns - but know that Spectre guns are not universally available to armies and soldiers. Therefore, to weaken the armies of their foes, they created thermal clips for the inferior weapons, in such a way as to cause their enemies (humans, asari, turians, etc.) to adapt their weaponry to utilize the new thermal clips.

Now every army in the Mass Effect galaxy uses thermal clips, and in a few years the geth would have sufficiently advanced technology to render thermal clips obsolete, which is what the Citadel races would have developed if it weren't for the geth's interference.

TLDR: geth are geniuses.

And then there are the laws of thermodynamics.

The heat sinks that are ejected glow orange, as hot as lava, at least 1,300 °F. Even with the heat sinks being small, I cannot see how they can be cooled fast enough as seen in ME when they are overheated, to keep using the same heat sink over and over. That is simply to much heat to manage consistently.

ME2's disposable heat sinks make more sense from that perspective, IMHO.

The only issue I see is how they are handled in ME2 gameplay after a fight.

Automatically restoring the Thermal reserve after a fight can easily be the best improvement for the system, that does not replace or hybridize Thermal Clips and keeps the balance of the ME2 weapons intact.

[Dreggon]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Dreggon wrote...

I've been sitting on this theory for a while, and I may as well post it:

Thermal clips are a large meta-war tactic used by the geth. The geth are well aware that thermal clips are inferior to the best available weaponry - i.e. Spectre guns - but know that Spectre guns are not universally available to armies and soldiers. Therefore, to weaken the armies of their foes, they created thermal clips for the inferior weapons, in such a way as to cause their enemies (humans, asari, turians, etc.) to adapt their weaponry to utilize the new thermal clips.

Now every army in the Mass Effect galaxy uses thermal clips, and in a few years the geth would have sufficiently advanced technology to render thermal clips obsolete, which is what the Citadel races would have developed if it weren't for the geth's interference.

TLDR: geth are geniuses.

And then there are the laws of thermodynamics.

The heat sinks that are ejected glow orange, as hot as lava, at least 1,300 °F. Even with the heat sinks being small, I cannot see how they can be cooled fast enough as seen in ME when they are overheated, to keep using the same heat sink over and over. That is simply to much heat to manage consistently.

ME2's disposable heat sinks make more sense from that perspective, IMHO.

The only issue I see is how they are handled in ME2 gameplay after a fight.

Automatically restoring the Thermal reserve after a fight can easily be the best improvement for the system, that does not replace or hybridize Thermal Clips and keeps the balance of the ME2 weapons intact.

I believe you have quoted the wrong person, as your response doesn't appear to have anything to do with mine. Spectre guns with Frictionless Materials never overheat in ME1.

[TheBlackBaron]

Dreggon wrote...
I believe you have quoted the wrong person, as your response doesn't appear to have anything to do with mine. Spectre guns with Frictionless Materials never overheat in ME1.

Something tells me the dev's didn't intend for something that unrealistic to be taken as canon. Praetor was showing why, I think. 

I know I sound like a broken record here, but gameplay and story segregation. Or, to put it another way, never confuse game mechanics with lore. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:07 .

[thompsonaf]

Your search for « thermal clips » returned 24 result/s.

What kind of kush was Bioware smoking with the thermal clips?http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/791105

Opinions on the Thermal Clips?
http://social.biowar...03/index/846385

Thermal clips are idiotic
http://social.biowar...03/index/894769

Lots of complaints about thermal clips, but what about ship fuel?http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/898053

Thermal Clips is a great Idea
http://social.biowar...03/index/899892

Do NPC enemies drop anything besides thermal clips?
http://social.biowar...03/index/929296

For those complaining about combat and thermal clips
http://social.biowar...03/index/946018

One thing I really dislike about ME2 - Thermal Clips (nerd rant)
http://social.biowar...03/index/946428

Thermal Clips question
http://social.biowar...03/index/960265

Thermal Clips
http://social.biowar...03/index/961931

Let's get rid of thermal clips.. Codex Entry style
http://social.biowar...3/index/1033537

Why thermal clips are here to stay....
http://social.biowar...3/index/1034467

Thermal Clips and Heat Sinks. Something bugs me.
http://social.biowar...3/index/2543014

Thermal Clips Lore- What if the answer was that simple?http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/5002527

Thermal Clips. What the hell? 
http://social.biowar...3/index/5879678

Thermal clips. Unnecessary Crutch.
http://social.biowar...05/index/870541

Replenishing Medi-gel (and Thermal clips) between missions?http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1040512

Thermal Clips?
http://social.biowar...5/index/1138069

Thermal Clips vs Normal Clips
http://social.biowar...5/index/1248106

Why thermal clips? Why not ammo blocks?
http://social.biowar...5/index/1525566

You know what would have made much more sense storyline wise than current thermal clips?http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/2533729

A solution for ME3 with the wall-banging fridge-logical Thermal Clips
http://social.biowar...5/index/3191055

[Poll] Thermal Clips or Overheating
http://social.biowar...5/index/5015069

Introduction of Thermal Clips.
http://social.biowar...5/index/5741302

*Edited for readability*

Modifié par thompsonaf, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:29 .

[Praetor Knight]

Dreggon wrote...

I believe you have quoted the wrong person, as your response doesn't appear to have anything to do with mine. Spectre guns with Frictionless Materials never overheat in ME1.

I always figured that those were bonuses for attaining the Rich achievement and being level 43+, so IMHO, that equipment was more a reward for Power Gaming then anything else.

Also, the average gamer would not be using that equipment until late in first or generally the second playthrough of ME in the first place, if they had access to the equipment to begin with. I know I had to work to get the Rich achievement, I was really frugal.

So I do not agree that Thermal Clips are a meta-war tactic to weaken organic species, but Geth certainly adapt fast.

***********************************************************************************

IMHO, Thermal Clips were an advancement in Mass Accelerator tech.

Also, today there is development of a Mass Accelerator weapon called a Railgun (here's a youtube snippet). And their biggest obstacle seems to be managing the immense heat and the wear and tear of using the system, so ME type weapons are actually on the horizon.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:32 .

[TheBlackBaron]

thompsonaf wrote...
Thermal Clips Lore- What if the answer was that simple?
http://social.biowar...3/index/5002527

I'm rather disappointed I missed that thread, because it makes total fracking sense. Perfectly explains how they work. 

[Lumikki]

thompsonaf wrote...

Your search for « thermal clips » returned 24 result/s.

What kind of kush was Bioware smoking with the thermal clips?
http://social.biowar...03/index/791105

Opinions on the Thermal Clips?
http://social.biowar...03/index/846385

Thermal clips are idiotic
http://social.biowar...03/index/894769

Lots of complaints about thermal clips, but what about ship fuel?
http://social.biowar...03/index/898053

Thermal Clips is a great Idea
http://social.biowar...03/index/899892

Do NPC enemies drop anything besides thermal clips?
http://social.biowar...03/index/929296

For those complaining about combat and thermal clips
http://social.biowar...03/index/946018

One thing I really dislike about ME2 - Thermal Clips (nerd rant)
http://social.biowar...03/index/946428

Thermal Clips question
http://social.biowar...03/index/960265

Thermal Clips
http://social.biowar...03/index/961931

Let's get rid of thermal clips.. Codex Entry style
http://social.biowar...3/index/1033537

Why thermal clips are here to stay....
http://social.biowar...3/index/1034467

Thermal Clips and Heat Sinks. Something bugs me.
http://social.biowar...3/index/2543014

Thermal Clips Lore- What if the answer was that simple?
http://social.biowar...3/index/5002527

Thermal Clips. What the hell? 
http://social.biowar...3/index/5879678

Thermal clips. Unnecessary Crutch.
http://social.biowar...05/index/870541

Replenishing Medi-gel (and Thermal clips) between missions?
http://social.biowar...5/index/1040512

Thermal Clips?
http://social.biowar...5/index/1138069

Thermal Clips vs Normal Clips
http://social.biowar...5/index/1248106

Why thermal clips? Why not ammo blocks?
http://social.biowar...5/index/1525566

You know what would have made much more sense storyline wise than current thermal clips?
http://social.biowar...5/index/2533729

A solution for ME3 with the wall-banging fridge-logical Thermal Clips
http://social.biowar...5/index/3191055

[Poll] Thermal Clips or Overheating
http://social.biowar...5/index/5015069

Introduction of Thermal Clips.
http://social.biowar...5/index/5741302

*Edited for readability*

Edited for links to work directly

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:50 .

[Praetor Knight]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

thompsonaf wrote...
Thermal Clips Lore- What if the answer was that simple?
http://social.biowar...3/index/5002527

I'm rather disappointed I missed that thread, because it makes total fracking sense. Perfectly explains how they work. 

Funny, I was working around similar ideas as JRKnight, but I did not consider recycling liquid coolant because such a system would be high maintenance with the type of heat it would be handling. For the hand-held scale such a system would struggle to be efficient.

Although, its also possible that the circulation system he describes could be how the ME heat sink system works to reduce heat. One that Thermal Clips bypass by simply ejecting the really hot heat sink for the next one stored in the weapon.

And those disposable heat sinks can be made of a ceramic shell, filled with a Lithium based high temperature grease.

With Omnitools in the field, the possibilities are endless for how they are exactly made.

[Severyx]

That's the way the game is.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Did anyone else question the in-game explanation for thermal clips?  I understand that being able to instantly reduce the heat of your gun is probably useful, but what's the point when the damn things are so cumbersome and difficulty to carry around that you can only have a handful of extra shots for most of your guns?  Doesn't it seem like the technology should've been refined a little bit before it set the universal standard in small arms manufacturing?  And while we're on the subject, how does Shepherd get all the way through Mass Effect 2 without stumbling upon a single gun that's more than two years old?

Retcon and gameply balance.
Assume guns from ME1 were prone to melting in your hands (as a weapon like that realisticly would, given the energy involved)


The heat sink makes perfect scientific sense and make the gameplay more tactical. TI can be reifned and improved, but in it's basic it is vastly superior to the overheat system.