196 réponses à ce sujet

[Goofy McCoy]

Keep excusing "clips" all you want, at the end of the day, if ME1 Shephard and ME2 Shephard decide to throw down, my money says the one that NEVER RELOADS will walk away. (That is also before factoring Uno-Shep's bigger pool of powers.)



Call it a dead horse if you will, but the heavy handed "streamlining" (aka dumbing-down) of Mass Effect is something that scares me, as someone who has and continues to enjoy the series, warts and all.

[TheBlackBaron]

Goofy McCoy wrote...
Keep excusing "clips" all you want, at the end of the day, if ME1 Shephard and ME2 Shephard decide to throw down, my money says the one that NEVER RELOADS will walk away. (That is also before factoring Uno-Shep's bigger pool of powers.)

Of course he will, because knowing you, you'll probably insist on giving Shepard the (borked, unbalanced, unrealistic) HMWAR X w/ two Frictionless Materials X. 

Give them both Avenger assault rifles from their respective games and ME2 Shepard wins hands down, since his cool down takes one second versus five. 

For the life of me, I will never understand what is so difficult to comprehend about not taking every aspect of the game mechanics literally. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 février 2011 - 09:42 .

[Goofy McCoy]

1. Knowing me isn't something you can lay claim to, partner.



2. That you would pick a very narrow view of the situation that highlights your point isn't surprising, given that, in broad terms, there is ZERO advantage to an arbitrary limit on when and how often you can shoot a gun via space-ammo, when the alternative is INFINITE capability if one compensates for the heating issue (controlled bursts, ie. SMART GAMEPLAY)



3. You just opened the door on the deeper weapon pool/upgrades (Space Enchantment) of the original. Yet more advantages Uno-Shep has over "stream lined" nerf-Shep.



WHY DO YOU HATE NICE THINGS?

This is why half the squad in ME2 runs about in STREET CLOTHES out in space, this idea that ME1 was too complicated and didn't need all the attention to detail that made it fresh and exciting.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The overheat systems is NOT what made it exciting.



Bringing back armoring your squadmates? Hell yes!

Bringing back weapon upgrades? Hell yes!



Bringing back the broken and unrealistic overheat system? No thank you.

[Deathwurm]

My only Opinion on this entire matter is that at least Bioware tried something new and made Gameplay changes from ME1 to ME2...

I didn't love every change, but at least they tried something new instead of just stagnating.

Thermal Clips I can take or leave...

Changing the Quicksave from F6 to F5...THAT was brilliant!

[TheBlackBaron]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

1. Knowing me isn't something you can lay claim to, partner.

2. That you would pick a very narrow view of the situation that highlights your point isn't surprising, given that, in broad terms, there is ZERO advantage to an arbitrary limit on when and how often you can shoot a gun via space-ammo, when the alternative is INFINITE capability if one compensates for the heating issue (controlled bursts, ie. SMART GAMEPLAY)

Compensating for heating issues means slowing rate of fire, which means reducing the number of shots going downrange, which means less damage getting dealt to enemies. This is the same point I've been stressing in every thread about this subject, backed up by both codex entries and real-life analogs.

People are far too hung up on the potential "infinite capacity" of the old system. Not having to "reload" isn't a very big advantage when you're taking much more fire than you're giving because of it, particularly when you throw regenerating kinetic shields into the mix. 

Moreover, unless you're truly, exceptionally bad at aiming, it's pretty hard to actually run out of capacity in a single firefight. Complaints about having to search for pickups have firmly left "misguided concerns" territory and entered "pointless whining". 

3. You just opened the door on the deeper weapon pool/upgrades (Space Enchantment) of the original. Yet more advantages Uno-Shep has over "stream lined" nerf-Shep.

I want the modular upgrades back too. They are, however, part of the inherent brokenness of the old system, particularly the parts that again would realistically not exist in the lore but exist because of the need for loot progression in RPGs.

I love getting shiny new toys myself, but the bloated system in ME1 was a holdover from Bioware's days of designing games in universes where a wide variety of items, most of them magical in nature, is justified. It is not so in the ME universe, which at least aspires to be semi-hard sci-fi. Is there really a reason for a single arms manufacturer producing ten different models of the same assault rifle, all slightly different from each other, at the same time? 

WHY DO YOU HATE NICE THINGS?
This is why half the squad in ME2 runs about in STREET CLOTHES out in space, this idea that ME1 was too complicated and didn't need all the attention to detail that made it fresh and exciting.

I dislike the street clothes aspect of ME2 as well and never felt that ME1 was too complicated. Clunky in some aspects and in need of reform, that's another story. Seriously, I could fill a couple pages nitpicking at the illogicalities of the old combat system if I wanted to, such as how sniper rifles and assault rifles were unusable for the first third of the game and how pistols wound up being superior in all aspects (except extreme range firefights, which are extremely rare) to the other three classes. 

The fact that I pay attention to these little details such as the codex entires on thermal clips is what allows me to understand the reasoning behind their adoption and implementation. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 février 2011 - 10:48 .

[Goofy McCoy]

Whatever else it may have been, it was much more interesting than space-ammo, in my experience anyway.



Here was a game with guns that did not inherently require "reloading", which helped capture Mass Effect's vision of "The Future". They had surpassed that essential mechanic and that was, to my mind at least, a powerful part of that universe.

[TheBlackBaron]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

Whatever else it may have been, it was much more interesting than space-ammo, in my experience anyway.

Here was a game with guns that did not inherently require "reloading", which helped capture Mass Effect's vision of "The Future". They had surpassed that essential mechanic and that was, to my mind at least, a powerful part of that universe.

Technology marches on. It helps give a sense of a living, breathing, evolving universe rather than a static portrait of a single point in time. If you can upgrade small arms technology beyond the plateau they'd been on for decades by adopting aspects of an older system, even if it is counter-intuitive, then do so. 

Also, this might just be me, but the idea that we'd found a way to break relativity to travel faster-than-light that didn't involve lots of blatant handwavium (just some unobtanium with special properties), spreading out across the stars at a phenomenal rate and upsetting the galactic Ancien Regime in the process, was a far more captivating and powerful part of the ME universe and its narrative than "the guns don't need ammo". 

[TheBlackBaron]

NewMessageN00b wrote...
Still, the transition is way too sharp. Should have been only new guns who employ such a system. And not to mention that the galaxy doesn't replace guns and doesn't give birth to heat clips out of thin air and at the speed of thought.

Oh, yeah, realistically speaking Shepard should still be encountering weapons that aren't retrofitted for the thermal clips. In fact, you could probably handwave that he does but since he doesn't pay them any mind, we don't see them. 

Also, Shepard himself gets his weapons and thermal clips through Cerberus. And since most of the enemies we fight are either major mercenary corporations - the sort of companies that would aim to be on the cutting edge of firearms technology - or being supplied by the Collectors (such as the vorcha in Mordin's recruitment) who have the ability to procure them, it makes sense that Shepard is encountering a larger number of them than raw percentages would suggest. 

That's all just a fancy way of saying, "It's a gameplay decision, not an exact translation of the lore", of course. 

[Goofy McCoy]

You cast off this reliance on finding clips due to "poor aim" and the abundance of lay-about ammo, yet there we are with two Shepherds making gratuitous use cover and regenerating shields, and one of them is left HOPING somebody put out some spares that they can collect to stay in the fight.



Obviously it's easier mechanics wise for a clip system, it falls in line with modern firearms, but it kills that more "advanced" nature of the weapons of the first game. It's regress made up to look like progress.

[Goofy McCoy]

Also, the unobtanium factor was indeed the draw, and it's ability to permate all levels of technology, right down to the guns.



The whole thing would have been much better pulled off as a plot element where-in these weapons are rendered useless against the creators of the technology they are based on, stimulating an actual need for the change.

[TheBlackBaron]

Goofy McCoy wrote...
You cast off this reliance on finding clips due to "poor aim" and the abundance of lay-about ammo, yet there we are with two Shepherds making gratuitous use cover and regenerating shields, and one of them is left HOPING somebody put out some spares that they can collect to stay in the fight.

Good thing he doesn't have to worry too much about ducking into the open briefly, since the other guy is firing slowly because he's paranoid about overheating his gun.

Or perhaps he'll consider using Overload 2.0 (which incorporates the effects of ME1 Overload and ME1 Sabotage) on the other guy's gun, since it retains that old vulnerability. Heck, since a gun with the sabotage effect apparently takes longer to cool down than one that simply overheated from firing, that's a pretty big window he can use to press an advantage. 

Obviously it's easier mechanics wise for a clip system, it falls in line with modern firearms, but it kills that more "advanced" nature of the weapons of the first game. It's regress made up to look like progress.

It's progress. It's counter-intuitive, and may seem like a regress, but that doesn't hold up on closer examination. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 février 2011 - 11:45 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Goofy McCoy wrote...
The whole thing would have been much better pulled off as a plot element where-in these weapons are rendered useless against the creators of the technology they are based on, stimulating an actual need for the change.

There is always a need to continually strive for upgrades, even if you think what you've got is the best. 

Complacency is what led to events like the Rachni War and the Alliance's upset victory at Shanxi. 

[citadel97501]

I personally don't have any severe issues with either the heat sink system, thermal clips, but I would like a better upgrade system for weaponry and armor, especially some way to bring Tali back to a reasonable amount of shields, she went from one of the tougher ones due to her electronics skill, to Leeroy Jenkins. . .

[Soahfreako]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I like how ME2 Combat works with Thermal Clips, and it seems to me, the biggest issue is having to run around for more Thermal Clips or find Power Cells and Armories being the only ways for Shepard to refill the weapons.

And, I too would prefer that Shep carries extra Thermal Clips on the armor (not how the Off-Hand Ammo Pack works though), that can be used to refill the weapons in a fight since Shep is an N7 trained Marine after all.

Here's one way it could work in game, keep the weapons balanced as is, and fit with the Lore:

So to start, have a second finite Power that is universal to all classes. It would work similar to Unity, allowing Shepard to restore the spare Thermal Capacity of the weapons during a fight.

The Skill could be called something simple like Speedload.

So Shep would be able to have this skill available with three uses, and the Power could be upgraded to maybe five or more uses (similar to how Unity gets upgraded).

This skill would refill the weapons and have a 6 second cool down (or longer) per use, in the Global Cooldown system.
Also, Thermal Clip pickups would still be able to refill weapons as in ME2, as well as refill this skill, since the power represents Thermal Clips carried on Shepard's Armor.

But the player can also then be able to manually restore the weapons during a fight instead of being forced to scavenge for clips during and after a fight and ME2 combat should not chage that much with such a power.

Thoughts?

You may as well just call it Sleight of hand if you want this game to have perks...

[The7Sins]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

Keep excusing "clips" all you want,
at the end of the day, if ME1 Shephard and ME2 Shephard decide to throw
down, my money says the one that NEVER RELOADS will walk away. (That is
also before factoring Uno-Shep's bigger pool of powers.)

Call it a
dead horse if you will, but the heavy handed "streamlining" (aka
dumbing-down) of Mass Effect is something that scares me, as someone who
has and continues to enjoy the series, warts and all.

Goofy McCoy wrote...

1. Knowing me isn't something you can lay claim to, partner.

2.
That you would pick a very narrow view of the situation that highlights
your point isn't surprising, given that, in broad terms, there is ZERO
advantage to an arbitrary limit on when and how often you can shoot a
gun via space-ammo, when the alternative is INFINITE capability if one
compensates for the heating issue (controlled bursts, ie. SMART
GAMEPLAY)

3. You just opened the door on the deeper weapon
pool/upgrades (Space Enchantment) of the original. Yet more advantages
Uno-Shep has over "stream lined" nerf-Shep.

WHY DO YOU HATE NICE THINGS?
This
is why half the squad in ME2 runs about in STREET CLOTHES out in space,
this idea that ME1 was too complicated and didn't need all the
attention to detail that made it fresh and exciting.

Goofy McCoy wrote...

Whatever else it may have been, it was much more interesting than space-ammo, in my experience anyway.

Here
was a game with guns that did not inherently require "reloading", which
helped capture Mass Effect's vision of "The Future". They had surpassed
that essential mechanic and that was, to my mind at least, a powerful
part of that universe.

Finally someone with a brain. I agree with everything said in these quotes. These quotes help explain what I was trying and failing to explain what woth my lack of grasp on English.

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Technology marches on. It helps
give a sense of a living, breathing, evolving universe rather than a
static portrait of a single point in time. If you can upgrade small arms
technology beyond the plateau they'd been on for decades by adopting
aspects of an older system, even if it is counter-intuitive, then do
so. 

Also, this might just be me, but the idea that we'd found a
way to break relativity to travel faster-than-light that didn't involve
lots of blatant handwavium (just some unobtanium with special
properties), spreading out across the stars at a phenomenal rate and
upsetting the galactic Ancien Regime in the process, was a far more
captivating and powerful part of the ME universe and its narrative than
"the guns don't need ammo".

And guess what it was a technology downgrade. It made guns worse. Combat slower. Your unable to continuously use your most effective gun for your class. All in all something that should never have come about and is Bioware ****ing with the lore and history of the game.

Goofy McCoy wrote...

You cast off this reliance on finding
clips due to "poor aim" and the abundance of lay-about ammo, yet there
we are with two Shepherds making gratuitous use cover and regenerating
shields, and one of them is left HOPING somebody put out some spares
that they can collect to stay in the fight.

Obviously it's easier
mechanics wise for a clip system, it falls in line with modern
firearms, but it kills that more "advanced" nature of the weapons of the
first game. It's regress made up to look like progress.

Indeed. This is what I've been trying to drum into Baron's head for a while. He either can't see reason or he is to much of a Bioware fanboy to notice how ME2 has wrecked the Mass effect universe.

citadel97501 wrote...

I personally don't have any severe
issues with either the heat sink system, thermal clips, but I would like
a better upgrade system for weaponry and armor, especially some way to
bring Tali back to a reasonable amount of shields, she went from one of
the tougher ones due to her electronics skill, to Leeroy Jenkins. . .

Have to disagree with you here. I hope they kill off Tali between games and we get an actual interesting Quarian for a squadmate in ME3 instead. Kal'Reegar would be a good fit.
Damn I hatethat boring lunmp of flesh named Tali. (runs away from the Talimancers)

[CannotCompute]

The7Sins wrote...

Damn I hatethat boring lunmp of flesh named Tali. (runs away from the Talimancers)

I definitely don't hate her, but I could never start a romance with her, because she just reminds me of some kind of ex-oppressed Russian refugee. It just doesn't float my boat.

[The7Sins]

CannotCompute wrote...

The7Sins wrote...

Damn I hatethat boring lunmp of flesh named Tali. (runs away from the Talimancers)

I definitely don't hate her, but I could never start a romance with her, because she just reminds me of some kind of ex-oppressed Russian refugee. It just doesn't float my boat.

ME1 Tali literaly bored me to tears when talking to her. She is a little less boring in ME2 but not by much.

[Wulfram]

How about keeping reloading, but giving you unlimited clips? So it's just about rate of fire, rather than forcing you to scrounge around after the battle for refills.



Though I didn't see anything wrong with the ME1 system. Aside from a few balance problems at the high end of the upgrades.

[TheBlackBaron]

The7Sins wrote...
Indeed. This is what I've been trying to drum into Baron's head for a while. He either can't see reason or he is to much of a Bioware fanboy to notice how ME2 has wrecked the Mass effect universe.

Can't see reason? You two are the most unreasonable people here, what with you're insistent bleating about how lore-breaking the system is despite it being spelled out in the simplest terms possible for you. 

And, seriously, upgrading the combat system "wrecked the Mass Effect universe"? Give me a ****ing break. 

[ObserverStatus]

Randy_Mac wrote...

Oh, this thread again...

Bioware really needs to make an older thread on this sticky.