196 réponses à ce sujet

[SalsaDMA]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

You cast off this reliance on finding clips due to "poor aim" and the abundance of lay-about ammo, yet there we are with two Shepherds making gratuitous use cover and regenerating shields, and one of them is left HOPING somebody put out some spares that they can collect to stay in the fight.

Obviously it's easier mechanics wise for a clip system, it falls in line with modern firearms, but it kills that more "advanced" nature of the weapons of the first game. It's regress made up to look like progress.

Or he could actually use his advantages, you know.

Wait for the ME1 shep to overload his gun, then rush him and keep up a stream of fire while ME1 is unable to fire back. Heck, if push comes to shove and he needs to run exceptionally far to get over to him, he can prolong the downtime of ME1's sheps weapon with a welltimed Sabotage and not worry about return fire at all while he is tearing a new one through the shields that can't cope with sustained fire from his ME2 weapons.

Combat is about taking out the opponent. It's not about who can sit the longest behind a wall and play with themselves.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 02 février 2011 - 06:57 .

[bbbbbb]

i made on xbox an assault rifle that never overheated...man i loved the weapon costumisation...also i made a shotgun that overheats in one shot...god bless high explosive rounds

[GODzilla]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Did anyone else question the in-game explanation for thermal clips?  I understand that being able to instantly reduce the heat of your gun is probably useful, but what's the point when the damn things are so cumbersome and difficulty to carry around that you can only have a handful of extra shots for most of your guns?

Well sucks for you, but your version of Mass Effect 2 is obviously bugged. When I played one heat sink gave me between a couple of shots and several dozen of shots per piece, depending on the gun.

(The only weapon that get's one shot per sink is the M98 Widow, but that's reasonable because it's so powerful.)

I agree though on the second (not quoted here) part of your post: The thing with the older weapons. Well I guess it's okay for most parts of the game because, yeah, it's just a game. But when I found the decade-lost ship of Jacobs father, seeing all the state-of-the-art weaponry and mechs I thought Bioware really blew it. -.-

A couple of "old-school"-weapons and drones ME1-style would have been much appreciated. But as stands is now this tiny mission has the potential to ruin the whole "cover-story" of the thermal clips...

[didymos1120]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

(The only weapon that get's one shot per sink is the M98 Widow, but that's reasonable because it's so powerful.)

M-300 Claymore is single-shot too.

[SalsaDMA]

Jacob's mission is just one huge pile of incosistencies. Weapons, mechs, fertility, ranks... you name it. Almost everything inside that mission is inconsistent with the rest of the game.



Q&A really dropped the ball on that mission.

[JKoopman]

didymos1120 wrote...

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

(The only weapon that get's one shot per sink is the M98 Widow, but that's reasonable because it's so powerful.)

M-300 Claymore is single-shot too.

And the M-92 Mantis.

[Goofy McCoy]

Both of the comebacks fire off how Nerf-Shep could use his sabotage to exploit the overheating system.



Suddenly, Uno-Shep unleashes his barrage of powers that AREN'T tied to a single cool down, tosses a grenade in for kicks and grins, and laughs that Nerf-Shep has to hope his universal power cooldown resets before his bum-rush stalls.



Every avenue by which you attempt to close the gap between the two systems just reveals more of Uno-Shep's advantages. My sentinel Shep uses the laser-equipped pistol in ME2, which is comparable in most terms to the handgun I had used in ME1. Yet I was forced to make use of the SMG on multiple occasions due to the inability of the pistol to make it through the larger gunfights. Chalk that up to what you will, but it was a drawback my pistoleer Shepard did not have before, or need imposed for the sake of the supposed advantages of the clip system.



You are obviously convinced that this space-ammo system is superior, yet it's utterly reliant on "gimmies" like available ammo, as well as the flawed thinking that the faster fire potential universally trumps the sustainability of the older system.



Fine, that's the path Bioware's taken, so be it. All the same, I'd rather this remain a visible grievance right up until the launch of ME3, as reminder that arbitrary simplification is not analagous with improvement.

[Destrier77]

Do you have a maximum number of clips you can carry? Does it use one clip each sniper shot and one clip for 20 shots in the machine pistol? I thought that was how it worked.

[NirvanaRain]

I think they just added it because ME1 was too easy after you got some heat reducing upgrades you could just keep firing and your gun barely ever overheated. I dont think there's any deep story driven explination behind it, just new game mechanics.

[SalsaDMA]

Goofy McCoy wrote...

Both of the comebacks fire off how Nerf-Shep could use his sabotage to exploit the overheating system.

Suddenly, Uno-Shep unleashes his barrage of powers that AREN'T tied to a single cool down, tosses a grenade in for kicks and grins, and laughs that Nerf-Shep has to hope his universal power cooldown resets before his bum-rush stalls.

Every avenue by which you attempt to close the gap between the two systems just reveals more of Uno-Shep's advantages. My sentinel Shep uses the laser-equipped pistol in ME2, which is comparable in most terms to the handgun I had used in ME1. Yet I was forced to make use of the SMG on multiple occasions due to the inability of the pistol to make it through the larger gunfights. Chalk that up to what you will, but it was a drawback my pistoleer Shepard did not have before, or need imposed for the sake of the supposed advantages of the clip system.

You are obviously convinced that this space-ammo system is superior, yet it's utterly reliant on "gimmies" like available ammo, as well as the flawed thinking that the faster fire potential universally trumps the sustainability of the older system.

Fine, that's the path Bioware's taken, so be it. All the same, I'd rather this remain a visible grievance right up until the launch of ME3, as reminder that arbitrary simplification is not analagous with improvement.

Because game mechanics suddenly dictates lore, right?

I cannot believe you actually tried to claim the technical implementation of powers in the different games is a lorewise aspect. Seriously... Talk about grasping for straws... Or even trying to claim that one of the combatants would have grenades while the other wouldn't... Again trying to claim technical limitations of the different games were lore. Kinda funny as you blisfully ignore heavy weapons from ME2 while using grenades from ME1, but I guess that wouldn't suit your selectively cherry picking of whatever make-believe argument you want to try and construct. I'm pretty sure limiting the ME1 and ME2 to weaponry they can only use in the game would just mean ME2 shepard would just lob a nuke at ME1 shep and then go back to ship to polish weapons afterwards, even though the whole claim of trying to limit selection of items based on game engine technicality is ludicrous at best. You're gonna claim that ME2 shepard is lorewise incapable of crouching as well?

You also continously ignore that shield technology improved as well in the timeframe, meaning that the lesser ability of ME1 era weapons to cope with heat compared to ME2 era puts ME1 weapons at a severe disadvantage in pulling down regenerative shields. Sucks to be a combatant that doesn't have access to powers that specifically target shields in your 'dream world' I guess, cause those would be the only ones actually able to deal with ME2 shields if ME1 weapons were the only weaponry available...

I don't even know why I bother trying to explain the facts, as you are obviously super set in your mind that your idea is the right one, irrespecitve of actual scientific research of today and past, as well as the explenations given by Bioware.

[Goofy McCoy]

Actual... Scientific... Research...



Do you possibly mean the FICTION that is dictating that thermal clip technology is BETTAR, the shields are BETTAR, etc? As I already agreed, the fiction is adjusted to suit the gameplay tweak, however inconsistently implemented.



I'll hand you that heavy weapons were a worthy addition to gameplay, but really, if you think you can hand wave ME2 Shep's lack of grenades as a "technical limit", when the game quite clearly labels grenades an ability via Zaeed instead of standard issue gear, you should be aware that mini-nukes are technology from the '50s, and nothing terribly exciting in-so-far as advanced tech.

ME1 Shep was a commando who didn't need or couldn't afford to raze whole battlefields, but could easily have equipped himself for such a job if need be.



Besides, playing the BFG card goes right back to the issue of the setting. Every shooter all the way back to Doom has a BFG. That's being lazy, instead of running with the unique flavor of the universe presented in game one.



Feel free to keep telling me about the SCIENCE! that supports how much better space ammo is. I'm sure it'll make me repent and admit how wrong I've been.

[KhaysunDei]

Okay, I just made an account today and I've only been playing mass effect 2 for a week.  But from what I've heard, the old system used to be infinite ammo until it overheats(if continuous fire) and thermal clips are used to keep them from overheating.  So If i ran out of thermal clips, shouldn't I theoretically be able to keep firing until the weapon overheats and then wait for it to cool down or find other thermal clips?  

I also also don't like the codex entry for thermals, maybe it'll be fixed in ME3.  Sorry if my question has already been debated several times, like i said, i'm new.

[JKoopman]

WarlordDavian wrote...

Okay, I just made an account today and I've only been playing mass effect 2 for a week.  But from what I've heard, the old system used to be infinite ammo until it overheats(if continuous fire) and thermal clips are used to keep them from overheating.  So If i ran out of thermal clips, shouldn't I theoretically be able to keep firing until the weapon overheats and then wait for it to cool down or find other thermal clips?  

I also also don't like the codex entry for thermals, maybe it'll be fixed in ME3.  Sorry if my question has already been debated several times, like i said, i'm new.

Yes, that was the way most assumed it would work up until release on the Xbox and PC. A "hybrid" system of both games makes the most logical sense; manage heat like in ME1 and, if the weapon overheats, you can choose to pop in a new thermal clip to spare yourself the long cooldown.

The fact that the old cooldown mechanic was completely replaced and weapon use is now entirely dependant on having spare thermal clips--without which your weapons can no longer fire--is one of if not the largest point of contention for many fans of ME1 who see the change as an example of BioWare/EA pandering to new fans of typical shooters rather than their long-time RPG community.

[Goofy McCoy]

An ideal system, to my mind anyway, would involve a limited number of "clips" per ME2's system, that don't arbitrarily lock a gun from use, but instead reset a cooldown bar, ala game one. When you run out of clips, the weapon operates essentially like it would have in ME1.



This would allow the hard charging clip-n-go action some of you have developed a hard-on for, promote conservation of the limited resource, but would never completely invalidate a weapon from use. It also sidesteps the space-ammo issue completely.

[kregano]

WarlordDavian wrote...

Okay, I just made an account today and I've only been playing mass effect 2 for a week.  But from what I've heard, the old system used to be infinite ammo until it overheats(if continuous fire) and thermal clips are used to keep them from overheating.  So If i ran out of thermal clips, shouldn't I theoretically be able to keep firing until the weapon overheats and then wait for it to cool down or find other thermal clips?  

No, because then you'd slag the delicate electronic components necessary for the gun to operate as designed.

[JKoopman]

kregano wrote...

WarlordDavian wrote...

Okay, I just made an account today and I've only been playing mass effect 2 for a week.  But from what I've heard, the old system used to be infinite ammo until it overheats(if continuous fire) and thermal clips are used to keep them from overheating.  So If i ran out of thermal clips, shouldn't I theoretically be able to keep firing until the weapon overheats and then wait for it to cool down or find other thermal clips?  

No, because then you'd slag the delicate electronic components necessary for the gun to operate as designed.

It didn't seem to slag the internal electronics in ME1 when weapons overheated. Why should it in ME2?

It can be assumed that each weapon has a built-in failsafe that prevents it from opperating once internal temperatures reached a certain threshold, hence the OVERHEAT warning and the weapon being rendered inopperable until it had cooled.

[The Fan]

 I like thermal clips, it adds strategy and planning to your attacks. No more just charge in with infinite ammo and gunning down everything, you must work with your squad and take cover to survive. 

[Goofy McCoy]

Ninjad by Koopman, I'm glad that school of thought isn't as foreign as some would make it out to be.



Kregano, why would you add such delicate components to a system capable of operating at those conditions, by design? Especially if it would brick the whole device?

Talk about a nightmare for soldiers.

[The7Sins]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

The7Sins wrote...
Indeed.
This is what I've been trying to drum into Baron's head for a while. He
either can't see reason or he is to much of a Bioware fanboy to notice
how ME2 has wrecked the Mass effect universe.

Can't
see reason? You two are the most unreasonable people here, what with
you're insistent bleating about how lore-breaking the system is despite
it being spelled out in the simplest terms possible for you. 

And, seriously, upgrading the combat system "wrecked the Mass Effect universe"? Give me a ****ing break.

In your opinion they improved and upgraded the combat system. Making a system that makes it so you can run out of ammo and therefore have to stop using your best gun where before either through upgrades or something called smart combat you could fire forever (or until someone used Sabatage on you) and made Biotics useless due to no longer being able to work on targets with shields and even more unbelievable having armor stop them in addition Global Cooldown also makes Biotics lame and near useless.

Its amazing how futuristic guns of 2 years ago are so inferior to guns that are reminicent of 21st century guns and how usually not being able to use ones powers makes a game better. Such a great game and combat experience this is and glad Bioware "improved" it all. (end sarcasm)

bobobo878 wrote...

Randy_Mac wrote...

Oh, this thread again...

Bioware really needs to make an older thread on this sticky.

Or they should make this thread stickied since I would be annoyed to have to copy pasta all my comments from here to the sticky thread. Besides this one is newer. Less digging for the Devs\\\\Mods to do to find a thread to sticky.



Edit: Added bold stuff and underlines.

Modifié par The7Sins, 03 février 2011 - 02:15 .

[shep82]

JKoopman wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

The only thing I question is why the crew of the MSV Hugo Gernsback has thermal clip weapons when their ship went down and became lost ten years before the events of ME2. 

Excellent 'fridge logic' moment. 

Another one of those "Gameplay and Story Segregations" moment. People already complain about how "limiting" the thermal clip system is (despite in practice it being very difficult to run out of them), they'd have thrown a holy **** fit if you had to beat that entire mission with only what you carry at the start, plus whatever powers you bring.

Come to think of it, that sounds like a pretty cool change of pace mission.

Or they could've simply had Shepard scavenge weapons off the first group of hunters you encounter or pick some off a few corpses found laying around ala the Collector Ship, made "ammo" temporarily unlimited from then on and tacked a heat gauge onto the HUD as a clever nod to the old weapons system. They could've even made the weapons fire a bit slower and/or inflict less damage to really hammer home how thermal clips are supposedly an improvement. And at the end, the weapon could've overheated and fried, forcing Shepard to discard it at mission completion.

But instead we have 10-year-old stranded colonists dropping thermal clips left and right with "state-of-the-art" combat mechs reinforcing them.

Thermal clips is a retcon of the old system they did the best they could with cannon there. As far as the mech's go it is not mentioned in the codex that they are a recent construction therefore it is possible mech's existed then.

[kregano]

JKoopman wrote...

kregano wrote...

WarlordDavian wrote...

Okay, I just made an account today and I've only been playing mass effect 2 for a week.  But from what I've heard, the old system used to be infinite ammo until it overheats(if continuous fire) and thermal clips are used to keep them from overheating.  So If i ran out of thermal clips, shouldn't I theoretically be able to keep firing until the weapon overheats and then wait for it to cool down or find other thermal clips?  

No, because then you'd slag the delicate electronic components necessary for the gun to operate as designed.

It didn't seem to slag the internal electronics in ME1 when weapons overheated. Why should it in ME2?

It can be assumed that each weapon has a built-in failsafe that prevents it from opperating once internal temperatures reached a certain threshold, hence the OVERHEAT warning and the weapon being rendered inopperable until it had cooled.

Because they removed the old heat sinks and went with thermals clips only to maximize weight savings or some other typical military committee idea. And as for the old ME1 guns, constantly overheating the guns probably did a hell of a number on the electronics in the guns, it's just that they never failed in the middle of a gun fight, so it might as well never happened. Having magic heat sinks that can dump all that thermal energy into the air within seconds helps.

Goofy McCoy wrote...
Kregano, why would you add such delicate
components to a system capable of operating at those conditions, by
design? Especially if it would brick the whole device?
Talk about a nightmare for soldiers.

Well, by design mircochips and things like that are delicate objects that require special protection, so when you give someone a portable railgun and a heat sink that can be ejected to maximize rate of fire, you make it incapable of firing without a heat sink so that an idiot doesn't try to fire off a round and melt the chips because the thermal energy generated by accelerating a round to several times the speed of sound has to go somewhere.

As for havign microchips in guns, you kind of need them for things like range finding and operating VIs that can shread the appropriate amount of mass for a give n target at a certain range, then accelerate the mass to a speed that can transfer enough KE into the target to kill/injure them.

Modifié par kregano, 03 février 2011 - 03:27 .

[Praetor Knight]

shep82 wrote...

Thermal clips is a retcon of the old system they did the best they could with cannon there. As far as the mech's go it is not mentioned in the codex that they are a recent construction therefore it is possible mech's existed then.

Well, Thermal Clips at least should not be considered a retcon, IMHO.

They exist only after fighting the Geth and after the Battle of the Citadel. Here's the Codex entry. The question is how do they really work. And for that one mission I have assumed that Clips show up for gameplay convenience, since ME and ME heat sink systems should fit in the same place in the weapons.

The Codex on the Mechs, imply that they have existed in the ME universe for many years, and I assume they are not favored by the Turians and C-Sec.

It's possible that Mechs are a common site on richer colonies (that Shep and co do not get near in ME) and on high risk Survey Missions, as the Hugo G (apparently to colonize in their case).

Here's the last two paragraphs from the Codex on Mechs:

Codex Entry: Security Mechs

A typical security mech has an extremely limited virtual intelligence. Its duty is straightforward and narrow, usually to guard an area, run a friend-or-foe program to halt unauthorized access, and fire a set of prerecorded voice commands to warn troublemakers away from the area. Light security mechs are equipped with irritant sprays and electroshockers to force compliance, and heavy mechs may be outfitted with flash-bang stunners for similar purposes. When facing an opponent armed with a firearm, any mech will immediately resort to lethal antipersonnel weapons to neutralize the threat. If the situation turns violent rapidly enough, it may not even use its warnings.

Security mechs are frowned upon for actual military duty. Though tough enough to survive most firefights, their VI simply does not have the programming to plan an ambush, rescue a hostage, treat a wound, or any of countless other objectives that a soldier must be able to perform on the fly.

[shep82]

While I personally prefer the thermal clips i see your point.

[shep82]

^Well I personally prefer the thermal clips but I see your point.