196 réponses à ce sujet

[Nizzemancer]

shep82 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Jacob's mission is just one huge pile of incosistencies. Weapons, mechs, fertility, ranks... you name it. Almost everything inside that mission is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Q&A really dropped the ball on that mission.

No it isn't. Only thing that is a plot hole are the thermal clips and that is because of the retcon of the combat system. Mechs are not a plot hole, not sure what issue you have with fertility and ranks at all.

You're wrong about the mechs:
"Initially used exclusively by the Alliance for colony guard duty, the
LOKI Mech came into new use following the Battle of the Citadel in 2183."
A partial log entry identifies the ship as a civilian ship

[Sidney]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
The question I still have is how do Thermal Clips actually work?

I've shared some theories that I've tried to build on, from how they seem to work in gameplay. With my current thought being that what is currently displayed in the HUD is the Thermal capacity in each weapon.

So the Avenger has the equivalent of 440 rounds stored inside it, the Mattock has 80, the Viper has 60, the Predator has 72 and so on.

Which would explain why that capacity cannot be transferred to the other weapons on Shep, and partly why I suggest the Speed Load idea (with Thermal Clips carried on the armor) would be used to restore the capacity in the weapons.

Edit: Gah. Spelling.

The guns have blocks of ammo that are functionally endless. The Heat Sinks all can capture the "same" amount of heat so the theory is that certain weapons create more or less heat per shot.

The bottom line is with out without TC's the "overheating" thing barely makes any sense. Things cool too fast in ME1, the "limits" on TC's in ME2 are silly. The fact that a sniper rifle creates more heat than a smaller gun makes no sense in both games. Heat isn't a function of the round but how many rounds go down the barrel, it is why SAW's and machine guns have interchangable barrels but a pistol doesn't. Why "frictonless materials" exist and aren't added to all guns in ME1 when that is the only weakness in those guns makes no sense - it would be like forcing you to add "Air Cooling" to a modern MG.  The ammo types in ME1 and the ammo powers in ME2 neither of those makes one iota of sense since you are not firing "bullets" with different properties but little acclerated chunks of metal that aren't incendiary, AP or anything else. People trying to make sense out of this mess are really never gonna succeed.

That said accepting the stupidity of the firearm lore the TC's actually do put more rounds downrange, allow for a greater variability in fire discipline and actually make a teeny, tiny bit more sense since you can "eject" heat rather than just wait for it to cool off faster than the handle of an average kitchen skillet.

[Praetor Knight]

Sidney wrote...

The guns have blocks of ammo that are functionally endless. The Heat Sinks all can capture the "same" amount of heat so the theory is that certain weapons create more or less heat per shot.

The bottom line is with out without TC's the "overheating" thing barely makes any sense. Things cool too fast in ME1, the "limits" on TC's in ME2 are silly. The fact that a sniper rifle creates more heat than a smaller gun makes no sense in both games. Heat isn't a function of the round but how many rounds go down the barrel, it is why SAW's and machine guns have interchangable barrels but a pistol doesn't. Why "frictonless materials" exist and aren't added to all guns in ME1 when that is the only weakness in those guns makes no sense - it would be like forcing you to add "Air Cooling" to a modern MG.  The ammo types in ME1 and the ammo powers in ME2 neither of those makes one iota of sense since you are not firing "bullets" with different properties but little acclerated chunks of metal that aren't incendiary, AP or anything else. People trying to make sense out of this mess are really never gonna succeed.

That said accepting the stupidity of the firearm lore the TC's actually do put more rounds downrange, allow for a greater variability in fire discipline and actually make a teeny, tiny bit more sense since you can "eject" heat rather than just wait for it to cool off faster than the handle of an average kitchen skillet.

I agree, I've just been posting a lot recently on TC's, trying to fill in the "blanks" between lore and gameplay with plausible theories, and I don't know why I keep trying though

[LtlMac]

Not that I want to be rude.....but HOW is this post still on the first page of the forums? I mean...interesting discussion....but as forumites we haven't really exhausted it yet?



oh, wait, i just bumped this thing didn't I?

[grumpymooselion]

I think there's reason for it to still be around, as long as it's civil. Personally I've always been a fan of the hybrid system, that uses the old Cooldown/Overheat system but also has Thermal Clips implemented in the manner than Medigel is implemented (that being, you can't carry very much, and you're not always going to find a new one). Having to deal with a balanced cooldown system, with a thermal clip for an emergency sounds like a great thing to me.

[Element_Zero]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Sidney wrote...

The guns have blocks of ammo that are functionally endless. The Heat Sinks all can capture the "same" amount of heat so the theory is that certain weapons create more or less heat per shot.

The bottom line is with out without TC's the "overheating" thing barely makes any sense. Things cool too fast in ME1, the "limits" on TC's in ME2 are silly. The fact that a sniper rifle creates more heat than a smaller gun makes no sense in both games. Heat isn't a function of the round but how many rounds go down the barrel, it is why SAW's and machine guns have interchangable barrels but a pistol doesn't. Why "frictonless materials" exist and aren't added to all guns in ME1 when that is the only weakness in those guns makes no sense - it would be like forcing you to add "Air Cooling" to a modern MG.  The ammo types in ME1 and the ammo powers in ME2 neither of those makes one iota of sense since you are not firing "bullets" with different properties but little acclerated chunks of metal that aren't incendiary, AP or anything else. People trying to make sense out of this mess are really never gonna succeed.

That said accepting the stupidity of the firearm lore the TC's actually do put more rounds downrange, allow for a greater variability in fire discipline and actually make a teeny, tiny bit more sense since you can "eject" heat rather than just wait for it to cool off faster than the handle of an average kitchen skillet.

I agree, I've just been posting a lot recently on TC's, trying to fill in the "blanks" between lore and gameplay with plausible theories, and I don't know why I keep trying though

Well one way I view the TC's is similar to a water jacket on a old M1917 Browning .30 cal machine gun. . the only exception here being, the superconductors that are propelling the projectiles are somehow feeding / bleeding their heat to the little clips . . . or the TC's are pulling the heat to them by directly contacting the material. . . I guess I always figured it was somekind of compound that chemically combined which in turn had a endothermic / sublimination (solid direct to gas) process to it. . Since a bit of steam dose seem to pour out of the gun during ejection and seems to vent from the barrel as well.

Also something to consider is there are forms of 'heat control' paste out there that welders / brazers use to control heat migration though metals they are welding together. I don't have a old tube of the stuff laying around anymore, otherwise I'd give ya the rundown of what it contains. But I know you can get one end of a chunk of metal red hot and as long as you have a healty dose of the stuff past the spot your brazing or soldering, it will control the heat well enough that you can touch the opposite side with your bare hand. A quick look up on google came back with ASP 9000 Hot Dam! Reusable heat stop compound for plumbing, if you guys need something for reference.

Oh and keep in mind those old guns didn't have interchangable barrels on them yet needed water to keep cool. . . since the water turned to steam as the gun was fired! (oh and for reference a M1917 fired a .30-06 round from a fabric belt!)

Modifié par Element_Zero, 05 février 2011 - 03:54 .

[rubyreader]

Sidney wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...
The question I still have is how do Thermal Clips actually work?

I've shared some theories that I've tried to build on, from how they seem to work in gameplay. With my current thought being that what is currently displayed in the HUD is the Thermal capacity in each weapon.

So the Avenger has the equivalent of 440 rounds stored inside it, the Mattock has 80, the Viper has 60, the Predator has 72 and so on.

Which would explain why that capacity cannot be transferred to the other weapons on Shep, and partly why I suggest the Speed Load idea (with Thermal Clips carried on the armor) would be used to restore the capacity in the weapons.

Edit: Gah. Spelling.

The guns have blocks of ammo that are functionally endless. The Heat Sinks all can capture the "same" amount of heat so the theory is that certain weapons create more or less heat per shot.

The bottom line is with out without TC's the "overheating" thing barely makes any sense. Things cool too fast in ME1, the "limits" on TC's in ME2 are silly. The fact that a sniper rifle creates more heat than a smaller gun makes no sense in both games. Heat isn't a function of the round but how many rounds go down the barrel, it is why SAW's and machine guns have interchangable barrels but a pistol doesn't. Why "frictonless materials" exist and aren't added to all guns in ME1 when that is the only weakness in those guns makes no sense - it would be like forcing you to add "Air Cooling" to a modern MG.  The ammo types in ME1 and the ammo powers in ME2 neither of those makes one iota of sense since you are not firing "bullets" with different properties but little acclerated chunks of metal that aren't incendiary, AP or anything else. People trying to make sense out of this mess are really never gonna succeed.

That said accepting the stupidity of the firearm lore the TC's actually do put more rounds downrange, allow for a greater variability in fire discipline and actually make a teeny, tiny bit more sense since you can "eject" heat rather than just wait for it to cool off faster than the handle of an average kitchen skillet.

That's certainly true, though logistically, an effectively ammo-independent system would have an in universe benefit beyond just the soldier having a major limitation on combat endurance removed.

[rubyreader]

technikr wrote...

There really needs to be an established order to this debate.

Are we trying to support a premise within the realms of the fictional mass effect universe or are we trying to establish a premise under the 4th dimensional (separate from the fictional universe) mechanics of gameplay.

If this is a debate concerning the realistic viability of weapons tech in the mass effect universe. Then we must use established means of measuring the battle effectiveness of a weapon in real time scenarios:

-How do we define an effective weapon?
-Is the definition dependent on the role of its user?
-In certain niche situations, does the weapons tech diverge towards a efficiency dependent on specific roles?

and we must consider all other socioeconomic elements existent in the canon aswell:

-Does current weapons tech follow progression from sociological reports from field use by troops?
-Does design progression take influence from the effects of economic presence: Does this include exclusive material rights by profitable companies? Who are the companies who design this weapon?

But then that leads itself to other questions about the military industrial complex existent within the council races.

-Who Standardizes military-issue weapons?
-What Company are contract by the military?
-How does council regulation and law affect the creation of weapons?

If we're willing to explore the mechanics of weapon systems and start questioning the research and development of these weapon systems, then we're going to have to begin questioning what is the current sociological and political elements that has lead to the implementation of thermal clip tech into standard military issue personnel weapon systems.


Now if this was a debate of gameplay mechanics. Then its simple. "Reloading" of clips into a weapon present challenges of resource risk and survivability that could not have been conveyed under mass effect 1's weapon mechanics. I suspect that thesis is supported by sociological studies of stress on the human psychology.

Well, it's arguable that the heat maintanence requirement is the same as reloading in terms of balancing the opposing needs of maintaining a resource (the ability to fire) with survivability, just more abstractly. So certainly a valid point about effectively conveyed threat vs potential threat. Battletech in it's many iterations factored a multitude more considerations while still making heat maintenance a valid battlefield concern, so it's not like it's impossible to have to effectively weigh the two and indeed I'd argue it was more the imbalance of later game mods, and it being Bioware's first attempt at this universe's mechanics (ie the gameplay was capable of being improved, that doesn't make the accepted solution inevitable or without alternative) that were truly at fault.

Very interesting analysis. I guess for me, it isn't that I NEED overheat, though again in my time as a Mechwarrior it's not without its allure, it's that Thermal Clips were claimed in lore, and certainly evidenced by the absence of any obvious overheating weapons in game, to completely outmode EVERYTHING when clearly things like Sniper Rifles are at least debatably made the worse for them. There are most definitely specializations of role that an effectively unlimited ammo weapon can fill. Especially on a battlefield of not quite but nearly endless combat endurance barring death (through regen kinetic barriers and medi-gel) Suppression fire is not one of them obviously, and yet with unlimited fire you do have the tradeoff of needing two soldiers to fill the job of one, as they trade cooling but they can effectively do it until they drop whereas the alternative needs resupply (likely requiring at least another person if not necessarily another soldier) very similar to two laserboat Mechs vs a Autocannon Mech or heaven forbid Gausszilla. Quick bursts most likely found on the modern battlefield (but perhaps not on the future one) effectively work out the same unless there is a clear reason to suspect a dramatic difference in ROF, accuracy, penetration, etc and again the overheat disadvantage is at least mitigated. And single shot seems to favor the overheating weapons.

So in terms of  application. I guess a SAW type that ran on TC's to keep enemy heads down while everyone else had some mix (so that in times of siege or other type of isolation the unit could still maintain fire indefinitely as their numbers dwindled), with perhaps an edge to TC requiring weapons backed by snipers armed with effectively unlimited ammo. I've said it elsewhere but a secondary weapon (pistol/holdout, what have you) that went with the overheat mode makes some sense at least for those odd survival situations and at least in universe frees up space/weight for more TC's for other weapons.


So cost and upkeep notwithstanding (as we have no idea), I would think militaries would at least be open to maintaining a stock of weapons that had no overhead other than storage/maintanence (of which all firearms would be expected to share to some degree). And if not the primary issued armament, at least for specialty cases where laying down hundreds of rounds isn't expected. I guess for me, if it was SUCH a dramatic improvement, it wouldn't have taken the Geth to come up with it. I mean it's not like the Council Races haven't had CENTURIES long wars requiring effective genocide as their solution (ie otherwise losing these wars) multiple times or anything.

Modifié par rubyreader, 05 février 2011 - 05:00 .

[Praetor Knight]

rubyreader wrote...

though again my time as a Mechwarrior it's not without it's allure, it's that Thermal Clips were claimed in lore, and certainly evidenced by the absence of overheating weapons in game

in this particular instance, it is quite difficult to compare such different systems. I've forced myself to keep the comparisons within ME lore for this aspect myself.

So cost and upkeep notwithstanding (as we have no idea), I would think militaries would at least be open to maintaining a stock of weapons that had no overhead other than storage/maintanence (of which all firearms would be expected to share to some degree). And if not the primary issued armament, at least for specialty cases where laying down hundreds of rounds isn't expected. I guess for me, if it was SUCH a dramatic improvement, it wouldn't have taken the Geth to come up with it. I mean it's not like the Council Races haven't had CENTURIES long wars requiring effective genocide as their solution (ie otherwise losing these wars) multiple times or anything.

Well, the main concern for most forces is Stopping Power, which should not be that great a leap from ME to ME2.
And fighting for centuries, well, look how long it took to adapt rifling and other advancements from pre-Neopoleon to WWI.

[rubyreader]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

rubyreader wrote...

though again my time as a Mechwarrior it's not without it's allure, it's that Thermal Clips were claimed in lore, and certainly evidenced by the absence of overheating weapons in game

in this particular instance, it is quite difficult to compare such different systems. I've forced myself to keep the comparisons within ME lore for this aspect myself.

So cost and upkeep notwithstanding (as we have no idea), I would think militaries would at least be open to maintaining a stock of weapons that had no overhead other than storage/maintanence (of which all firearms would be expected to share to some degree). And if not the primary issued armament, at least for specialty cases where laying down hundreds of rounds isn't expected. I guess for me, if it was SUCH a dramatic improvement, it wouldn't have taken the Geth to come up with it. I mean it's not like the Council Races haven't had CENTURIES long wars requiring effective genocide as their solution (ie otherwise losing these wars) multiple times or anything.

Well, the main concern for most forces is Stopping Power, which should not be that great a leap from ME to ME2.
And fighting for centuries, well, look how long it took to adapt rifling and other advancements from pre-Neopoleon to WWI.

Certainly, it's just the concept of not being able to fire as much as you can is not a new invention nor is it prohibitive to either in universe logic or fun which is partially why I bring it up there. True the exact implementation is different but the central limitation remains.

And while stopping power is a major concern, obviously you need to kill people at some point, wars are won on logistics all other factors being reasonably apace. It's just a question of which one ultimately is more efficient in that regard. And  like you said stopping power shouldn't be that different per shot.

Multiple problems with the analogy with Pre-Napoleonic to WWI. Most of humanity wasn't involved. IE the people that were working on these concepts were relatively few and far between with relatively poor communications certainly by today's standards let alone apparently intragalactic emails and giant sections of the potential contributors were simply not educated even if they were in the industrializing nations or not involved at all such as really most of the world stretching from South America to Asia. There was no military industrial complex dedicated to these advancements and a perusal of DARPA projects can show the crazy that oodles of money will chase on the offchance it might possible become something and even the sciences at the time you are describing were only just transitioning from the hobbies of the financially/culturally elite to the masses. There's a reason man went from not even having powered flight to the moon in 60 years whereas hundreds or thousands of years would go by with much more modest gains in human achievement (not that advancement didn't occur, even the "Dark Ages" is a misnomer).

It just seems amazing that a previous gen's weapons went completely dodo within two years across the galaxy and it was all based on something apparently so obvious and so much better. Because even a lesser version would then still be better and should have been implemented centuries earlier. Akin to Turtledove's Guns of the South where the Confederates ponder...where the hell were the precursors to the AK47's they were given? They realized even multiple generations earlier models could have turned the tide let alone full-on assault rifles (assuming a steady supply and ammo).

[SalsaDMA]

Nizzemancer wrote...

shep82 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Jacob's mission is just one huge pile of incosistencies. Weapons, mechs, fertility, ranks... you name it. Almost everything inside that mission is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Q&A really dropped the ball on that mission.

No it isn't. Only thing that is a plot hole are the thermal clips and that is because of the retcon of the combat system. Mechs are not a plot hole, not sure what issue you have with fertility and ranks at all.

You're wrong about the mechs:
"Initially used exclusively by the Alliance for colony guard duty, the
LOKI Mech came into new use following the Battle of the Citadel in 2183."
A partial log entry identifies the ship as a civilian ship

No need for me to answer on the mech thing, thanks
(Except that not only does he have LOKI mechs, but also an YMIR Mech )

Anyways, other stuff: http://masseffect.wi.../wiki/2175_Aeia
From there:

Humans detected Aeia as an Earth-type world via telemetry in 2165. After
probe surveys indicated life – lush vegetation, ample fresh water and
breathable air – the Alliance upgraded the planet to a garden-world
colonization priority. Commanded by Captain Ronald Taylor, the crew of
Alliance survey vessel Hugo Gernsback made planetfall on the jungle
world in 2173. Soon after, ship transmission inexplicably stopped. While
the precise fate of the Hugo Gernsback command and crew is unknown,
they are presumed killed in action and their vessel destroyed.

Compare this to in the mission with Taylor where the ship didn't make planetfall, but crashed instead. Taylor was only Captain because the previous captain died in the crash.

Add to this that garden variety worlds are treasured by the races when found, yet appearantly no one bothered to make follow up scouting or colonization attempts, even though several lesser priority worlds around the galaxy have had settlers on them.


And regards to my fertility comment. You don't see a single child or any pregnant females anywhere, yet it is heavily implied that the officers used the women in a way that would certainly make several of these appear, especially given the timeperiod this behaviour is carried out in.

You also find research upgrade for your handguns in the camp. Which implies that the stranded settlers, while dealing with nutrients that rendered their mental capabilities to a minimum, presumably using technology that is 10 years 'younger' than what our team uses, where able to produce weapongrade technology that is not only suitable for incorporation into 'current' top of the line handguns, but also is better than what weaponcompanies around the galaxy appearantly have come up with so far...

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 05 février 2011 - 02:29 .

[Sidney]

rubyreader wrote...

It just seems amazing that a previous gen's weapons went completely dodo within two years across the galaxy and it was all based on something apparently so obvious and so much better.

Yeah but etchnical chnage can happen really fast think about some changes in the 20thc and while slower they also lacked the production and technical distribution ability of ME2's world AND these are much, much, much bigger changes dealing with entirely new tech in many cases:

Tanks were developed in 1917 and were standard issue in industrial global armies by the 1920's.

Airplanes first flew 1903 and were standard issue in air corps in 1914.

Assault Rilfes deployed first time in 1944 and were standard issue by the 1960's.

Technology can be adeopted very, very widely very quickly when people have a big need/desire for it.

[Praetor Knight]

rubyreader wrote...

It just seems amazing that a previous gen's weapons went completely dodo within two years across the galaxy and it was all based on something apparently so obvious and so much better.

To be honest, I thought the same thing at first when I was first playing ME2, but I've come to realize that the weapons did not change, it was the way that heat sinks were used that did. I think even Zaeed talks about not having to replace the heat sink from firing so much and having the weapon fail anyway.

So I think there was simply a design change in the weapons, where in ME, the design was to keep the heat sink in the gun, vent the heat and manage your shots, compared to the ME2 design where one is using disposeable heat sinks, so waste the heat sink, place more rounds down range and then pop in a new one to keep firing.

Also, the Mattock and Locust are two very old weapons in ME lore, and they use Thermal Clips, so I feel that only changing the way heat sinks are used is what most likely happened with the retrofit.

But with how it was implimented in ME2 gameplay, the most common complaint I've read is having a finite number of rounds being a down grade from "infinite" number of rounds in ME.

So what I'd like to see is additions to the ME2 combat system that allows Shepard to feel more independent from having to scavenge for Thermal Clips during and after an engagement, but without changing the balance of ME2 combat. Which is why I've given suggestions as to one way additions can be made within what we already have with ME2 combat, and that does not use a hybrid system.

[F00lishG]

I quite enjoyed the gun system from ME1. Better to overheat in the toughest fight of your life then the alternative; to realize you're down to one bullet and you only have one clip left. Yes that has happened to me, lol.

Modifié par F00lishG, 05 février 2011 - 06:32 .

[rubyreader]

Sidney wrote...

rubyreader wrote...

It just seems amazing that a previous gen's weapons went completely dodo within two years across the galaxy and it was all based on something apparently so obvious and so much better.

Yeah but etchnical chnage can happen really fast think about some changes in the 20thc and while slower they also lacked the production and technical distribution ability of ME2's world AND these are much, much, much bigger changes dealing with entirely new tech in many cases:

Tanks were developed in 1917 and were standard issue in industrial global armies by the 1920's.

Airplanes first flew 1903 and were standard issue in air corps in 1914.

Assault Rilfes deployed first time in 1944 and were standard issue by the 1960's.

Technology can be adeopted very, very widely very quickly when people have a big need/desire for it.

But tanks and airplanes didn't obsolete a previous tech (well okay horses and balloons but even by the time of the development of their replacements those were essentially obsolete on the "modern" battlefield, both being found to be horribly vulnerable and limited at last as far back as the American Civil War). They filled a new developing niche. It's the difference between mammals filling all those holes the dead dinosaurs left, and suggesting they would have done anything like that had the dinosaurs remained. One helped win the Great War, the other, well powered flight only being the dream of man since he could probably understand what birds were. IE if there is even a remotely viable already established alternative it takes longer for things to get adopted.

Assault rifles comes close, but again are we really suggesting the difference between overheating and TC equipped weapons is the difference between an AR and semi-automatic? Cause certainly many sniper rifles still use "obsolete" tech as their specific role doesn't require what made the assault rifle such a gamechanger. And on that note, the smaller NATO rounds allowing solders to fire more (if not faster, just longer) by carrying more ammo per weight factors in a little.

For me, the incredulity found in my statement isn't "my gosh only two years?" It's, if it is SO much better such that in two years EVERYONE adopted it, how come no one thought of it earlier. If this were a technical issue such as marrying a sufficiently powerful tractor to armor and guns and creating a tank, or an IC engine with enough power to weight ratio to make powered flight possible that would be one thing, but the concept itself at least as decribed and evidenced again by it's near instantaneously universal adoption is a very basic one and similarly the benefits  are apparently SO huge. If it were the ideal of Star Trek and wars didn't happen (false even in that universe but the ideal) that would be one thing, but the Council Races were embroiled in centuries long wars that were going so bad they needed to engage in effective genocide to win them. One would think SOMEONE fairly bright would have created such a weapon system even a primitive version if the benefits were so huge and easily implemented rather than you know going to the trouble of uplifting an entire race to interstellar from post atomic wasteland levels and then in turn having to basically bioplague the lot of them.

Modifié par rubyreader, 05 février 2011 - 07:14 .

[shep82]

Nizzemancer wrote...

shep82 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Jacob's mission is just one huge pile of incosistencies. Weapons, mechs, fertility, ranks... you name it. Almost everything inside that mission is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Q&A really dropped the ball on that mission.

No it isn't. Only thing that is a plot hole are the thermal clips and that is because of the retcon of the combat system. Mechs are not a plot hole, not sure what issue you have with fertility and ranks at all.

You're wrong about the mechs:
"Initially used exclusively by the Alliance for colony guard duty, the
LOKI Mech came into new use following the Battle of the Citadel in 2183."
A partial log entry identifies the ship as a civilian ship

That doesn't mean a civilian ship couldn't have mechs. Just because officially only the Aliance had them doesn't mean others didn't have that tech.

[rubyreader]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

rubyreader wrote...

It just seems amazing that a previous gen's weapons went completely dodo within two years across the galaxy and it was all based on something apparently so obvious and so much better.

To be honest, I thought the same thing at first when I was first playing ME2, but I've come to realize that the weapons did not change, it was the way that heat sinks were used that did. I think even Zaeed talks about not having to replace the heat sink from firing so much and having the weapon fail anyway.

So I think there was simply a design change in the weapons, where in ME, the design was to keep the heat sink in the gun, vent the heat and manage your shots, compared to the ME2 design where one is using disposeable heat sinks, so waste the heat sink, place more rounds down range and then pop in a new one to keep firing.

Also, the Mattock and Locust are two very old weapons in ME lore, and they use Thermal Clips, so I feel that only changing the way heat sinks are used is what most likely happened with the retrofit.

But with how it was implimented in ME2 gameplay, the most common complaint I've read is having a finite number of rounds being a down grade from "infinite" number of rounds in ME.

So what I'd like to see is additions to the ME2 combat system that allows Shepard to feel more independent from having to scavenge for Thermal Clips during and after an engagement, but without changing the balance of ME2 combat. Which is why I've given suggestions as to one way additions can be made within what we already have with ME2 combat, and that does not use a hybrid system.

It's a fair hypothesis, one I thought of. I understand the ingame reason (the one that trumps all else obviously) for the universal acceptance of the weapons. Just for me, I would imagine someone, ESPECIALLY a bounty hunter constantly getting into fights against many more targets, would keep at least one gun independent of "ammo" just in case even if it was a pistol (and not even ME1's wonky pistols). I mean worse comes to worst you can extend what ammo you have by firing rounds off, overheating, switching guns on a TC equipped gun and keep going. That and snipers and ignoring weird things like Jacob's loyalty mission. And on any major battlefield, you probably can't expect to resupply yourself with the droppings of your dead enemies they hopefully being a minimum of several hundred yards away.

I suppose if the overheating weapons failed excessively  that would be something. Though really what industrialized military would accept such weapons for presumably centuries and not improve them with such a basic and obvious solution well before this.

Eh, I'm probably never going to be entirely happy in universe. And certainly whily it made for superior gameplay, I still think that could have been achieved while maintaining a little of ME1's original style in this regard, a shooter that didn't have ammo but heat is a rare one after all. I might like it more if they were treated more like power cells, something to use when the isht hits the fan...or my uber RPG nerd, necessary maintenance or your gun has some percentage chance to fail.

Modifié par rubyreader, 05 février 2011 - 07:36 .

[pmac_tk421]

I think I'm one pf the few who wants to keep thermal clips.

[Sidney]

rubyreader wrote...

For me, the incredulity found in my statement isn't "my gosh only two years?" It's, if it is SO much better such that in two years EVERYONE adopted it, how come no one thought of it earlier.

Stupidity?

Seriously the M3 Garand rfile - the one from any WWII movie about American soldiers- is obviously superior to a bolt action rifle. The US Army had the dumb thing but the US Marines wouldn't use it. They were, ironically given a lot of heat sink discussions, concerned about ammo consuption and resupply issues if soliders could pop off 4x as many rounds per minute. They didn't use the thing, adopted by the army in 1936, until 1942. Organizations can often need a crisis to move and the Geth War might have been that one. It is entirely possible the TC's were out there and until it just plain flat slapped people in the face they didn't make the change.

Hell the US Army then resisted the change to the assault rifle despite their own study's showing small arms fire effectiveness came from rounds down range and that most weapon damage was short range so long range accuracy didn't matter much plus the experience of the Germans and Soviets with the things.

[Nizzemancer]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

I think I'm one pf the few who wants to keep thermal clips.

I like the thermal clips as a game-mechanic but they just don't make much sense to me in the current form.

[Nizzemancer]

shep82 wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

shep82 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Jacob's mission is just one huge pile of incosistencies. Weapons, mechs, fertility, ranks... you name it. Almost everything inside that mission is inconsistent with the rest of the game.

Q&A really dropped the ball on that mission.

No it isn't. Only thing that is a plot hole are the thermal clips and that is because of the retcon of the combat system. Mechs are not a plot hole, not sure what issue you have with fertility and ranks at all.

You're wrong about the mechs:
"Initially used exclusively by the Alliance for colony guard duty, the
LOKI Mech came into new use following the Battle of the Citadel in 2183."
A partial log entry identifies the ship as a civilian ship

That doesn't mean a civilian ship couldn't have mechs. Just because officially only the Aliance had them doesn't mean others didn't have that tech.

The key word here is "Exclusively":

[*]exclusive - not divided or shared with others; "they have exclusive use of the machine"; "sole rights of publication" [*]exclusive
- excluding much or all; especially all but a particular group or
minority; "exclusive clubs"; "an exclusive restaurants and shops" [*]exclusive - a news report that is reported first by one news organization; "he got a scoop on the bribery of city officials"[*]exclusive
- single(a): not divided among or brought to bear on more than one
object or objective; "judging a contest with a single eye"; "a single
devotion to duty"; "undivided affection"; "gained their exclusive
attention"[/list]

[rubyreader]

Sidney wrote...

rubyreader wrote...

For me, the incredulity found in my statement isn't "my gosh only two years?" It's, if it is SO much better such that in two years EVERYONE adopted it, how come no one thought of it earlier.

Stupidity?

Seriously the M3 Garand rfile - the one from any WWII movie about American soldiers- is obviously superior to a bolt action rifle. The US Army had the dumb thing but the US Marines wouldn't use it. They were, ironically given a lot of heat sink discussions, concerned about ammo consuption and resupply issues if soliders could pop off 4x as many rounds per minute. They didn't use the thing, adopted by the army in 1936, until 1942. Organizations can often need a crisis to move and the Geth War might have been that one. It is entirely possible the TC's were out there and until it just plain flat slapped people in the face they didn't make the change.

Hell the US Army then resisted the change to the assault rifle despite their own study's showing small arms fire effectiveness came from rounds down range and that most weapon damage was short range so long range accuracy didn't matter much plus the experience of the Germans and Soviets with the things.

True enough, though I would say if it were around you have to weigh: changing your weapons or uplifting a species undergoing a postnuclear apocalypse to minor interstellar power...I know which one I would pick just as an efficiency thing. And still leaves the issue of things like Sniper Rifles.