73 réponses à ce sujet

[Cra5y Pineapple]

 Eh Saren's a pretty cool guy got indocrinated and doesn't afraid of anything.

What I mean is that I pity him, it was clear he had completely lost his mind to the indocrination. He ain't a bad guy.
I also feel he makes a good comparison point for Shepard, right into ME2; because in 2 you're a rouge spectre filled with cybernetics; it really shows how Bioware is making parrellels.

Modifié par Cra5y Pineapple, 03 février 2011 - 11:33 .

[eshrafel]

Actually I thought despite the fact Saren put Kahlee in danger (and the marines) in that scene in Ascension, it was one of the better displays of his intellect and efficiency, and it had reason. Jella is the most obvious one to call him out on I think, given the fact it is not backed up as Kim mentioned above. I assume this kind of detail does not get put in his report to the council, and equivalently I imagine the council are expected not to ask.

My Shepard has had a lot of embarrassing incidents regarding the colonists on Feros (forgetting to change grenades, realising after... inventory full when being given the gas grenades so I had to omni-gel them....) so I certainly can't criticise Saren too much

Edit: good point about the parallels, Pineapple. I kind of wanted Saren to be mentioned more in ME2 though, even in view of that. He is the character that set the tone for the whole series, and I think that will be echoed all the way down to the third game. 

Modifié par eshrafel, 03 février 2011 - 11:39 .

[Kim Shepard]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I also feel he makes a good comparison point for Shepard, right into ME2; because in 2 you're a rouge spectre filled with cybernetics; it really shows how Bioware is making parrellels.

I like that about both games too. I have a Shepard who I consider the most likely to become Saren, and his ME2 playthrough will end with an uncertain alliance and Reaper tech. Sound familiar?

eshrafel wrote...

Actually I thought despite the fact Saren put Kahlee in danger (and the marines) in that scene in Ascension, it was one of the better displays of his intellect and efficiency, and it had reason.

Revelation. But I agree.

My Shepard has had a lot of embarrassing incidents regarding the colonists on Feros (forgetting to change grenades, realising after... inventory full when being given the gas grenades so I had to omni-gel them....) so I certainly can't criticise Saren too much

Good to know I'm not the only one who killed all of the colonists on my first playthrough of Feros because I couldn't figure out the grenade system. xD

I kind of wanted Saren to be mentioned more in ME2 though, even in view of that. He is the character that set the tone for the whole series, and I think that will be echoed all the way down to the third game. 

I remember a BioWare quote to this effect, but I don't have a link to it. Hopefully it'll be more than the Saren statue in Kasumi's loyalty mission. He's in Evolution though! Can't wait for volume 2.

[GMulryan]

Renegade vangard looking out for himself.
The universe is better without him. 

[eshrafel]

Oh dear, I keep writing Ascension... I don't mean it, I don't, honestly. It's midnight, or something, that's my excuse. I haven't even bothered to keep up with the comics and so on. All the names are merging into one colossal ball of doom. Sorry!



Regarding Jella, the closest I can probably think of is taking out Shiala on Feros. Okay, I can see the faint reasoning behind that, but is it really necessary? Depends how high you think the stakes are, how many risks you are willing to take, how big a leap of faith you wish to make. Personally, I tend to leave her alive.



I wonder though, if Saren had managed to survive the events of ME1 and been free once more, how quickly the council would have abandoned him. Pretty fast ,I'd wager.

[Kim Shepard]

eshrafel wrote...

Regarding Jella, the closest I can probably think of is taking out Shiala on Feros. Okay, I can see the faint reasoning behind that, but is it really necessary? Depends how high you think the stakes are, how many risks you are willing to take, how big a leap of faith you wish to make. Personally, I tend to leave her alive.

The main reason would be that Shepard doesn't know for sure that the thorian had no effect on her, or like Shepard says, she changes sides too many times. I have Shepards who killed her.

The best comparison I can think of for Jella, even though the situations are nothing alike, is the Renegade choice in Overlord, just because a lot of people think it's an overly cruel choice without much reason behind it. (I don't. But I've seen this a lot on the forums.)

I wonder though, if Saren had managed to survive the events of ME1 and been free once more, how quickly the council would have abandoned him. Pretty fast ,I'd wager.

Even faster than they dismissed Shepard. xD I imagine working for Cerberus, considering the history Saren has with TIM, would go over about as well as a Sole Survivor working for them. I think he would do it as a total last resort to defeat the Reapers, but afterwards... I'd have to worry about two of my favorite characters trying to kill each other.

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 04 février 2011 - 03:48 .

[eshrafel]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Even faster than they dismissed Shepard. xD I imagine working for Cerberus, considering the history Saren has with TIM, would go over about as well as a Sole Survivor working for them. I think he would do it as a total last resort to defeat the Reapers, but afterwards... I'd have to worry about two of my favorite characters trying to kill each other.

I've not got the ME2 DLC so I don't know about the Overlord choice, but I will bow to your wisdom  

My main Shepard is a sole survivor, so yes... I can see your point. (Aside: Despite that, Ruthless has the most fun side story bit in ME1 where you get to blow that guy away and the turian is just like "huh...cool!"). Of course, the collectors would never have a chance with both Shepard *and* Saren. That would just make ME2 too easy.

There is obviously some debate as to where Saren lies on the spectrum, but most people seem to agree at least that he was an integral and very important part of ME1, if nothing else. He had decent writing, good scenes, and an excellent voice actor to top it off. What more could you want! (Apart from his resurrection.)

Ah, well. Thanks for the discussion Kim, it was very interesting.

Modifié par eshrafel, 04 février 2011 - 07:27 .

[Kim Shepard]

I don't have Overlord either (or any DLC), but I've watched the youtube videos.

Shepard and Saren against the Reapers would be awesome. They'd both have a vengeance too, since the Reapers have killed both of them before. I hope there's something Saren-related in ME3, even if it's just Shepard finding some information on the Reapers that he left behind. I mean, he studied them for 20+ years. He didn't find a way to destroy them, but maybe something he knew could help Shepard or TIM figure it out.

I agree about his voice actor. He knew Saren's character very well, judging by his answers in the Mass Effect cast interview.

[Xilizhra]

I've never read the book, which I may be glad about.



Saren was evil, but sympathetically so. It's unfortunate that the only way to win was his death.

[Barquiel]

I think he wasn't a very strong villain (not enough screen time)...and "Revelation" destroyed every bit of sympathy I had for him in ME1. Saren is a good example why spectres are a questionable concept, but he didn't seem to have much of a personality beyond that.

Modifié par Barquiel, 05 février 2011 - 05:04 .

[naledgeborn]

Saren is my favorite character in the whole series. I read Revelation about a year before ME1 came out. The whole breaking the fingers interrogation is what got me into his character. Reminds me of Denzel Washington in Man On Fire. He is a 'good' Renegade with a chip on his shoulder because his brother died during Human First Contact. He wanted to protect the galaxy from humanity and discovered Sovereign in the process. He became indoctrinated and convinced that working for the Reapers would halt the cycle of galactic genocide. Tragic Hero. You see it if you Charm/Intimidate him during the BotC.

[darknoon5]

He didn't want to "protect" the galaxy from humans, he wanted revenge, because his brother was killed in a conflict the Turian's started.

[Kim Shepard]

naledgeborn wrote...

Saren is my favorite character in the whole series. I read Revelation about a year before ME1 came out. The whole breaking the fingers interrogation is what got me into his character. Reminds me of Denzel Washington in Man On Fire.

I should probably watch that movie, because the interrogation scene was what made Saren my favorite character rather than just one of my favorites. I played both ME1 and ME2 before I read Revelation.

darknoon5 wrote...

He didn't want to "protect" the galaxy from humans, he wanted revenge, because his brother was killed in a conflict the Turian's started.

Technically, the humans started it by activating a forbidden relay (even though they were unaware it was forbidden) and building colonies on worlds that weren't theirs to take. The turians' attack was understandable.

Saren did want revenge against the Alliance, and the Council too, but one of his goals was to stop humans from getting too much power so fast. There were many species that had been around a lot longer and weren't allowed to have that kind of power, and with the way humans made first contact, it seemed like they were trying to take over.

Modifié par Kim Shepard, 06 février 2011 - 09:13 .

[eshrafel]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Saren did want revenge against the Alliance, and the Council too, but one of his goals was to stop humans from getting too much power so fast. There were many species that had been around a lot longer and weren't allowed to have that kind of power, and with the way humans made first contact, it seemed like they were trying to take over.

Fast forward to the Citadel in ME2.... and he was right!

If he was alive he would be so furious right now. I'm sure to most people they will think he was hugely over-reacting, but unless you are of the pro-human Cerberus/Terra-Firma stance, it's hard not to agree he had a point that at its core, was not wrong. With a sudden influx of humans into positions of considerable authority (including via dubious means if that recent comic featuring Pallin is anything to go by) it's no surprise you get reactions such as those from Saren and Joram Talid and others.

[Kim Shepard]

Poor Saren. If he was alive and on Shepard's team in ME2, there would be so many times that he'd get to say, "I told you so." The Council dismissing the Reapers, for one. Humans on the Council, or even an all-human Council. And the anti-human politics that are brought up in Thane's loyalty mission, as you said. It's almost like he's an older more experienced version of Shepard in some cases - depending on the lines you choose, this can all sound new and unexpected to Shepard, but Saren would probably look at it with a "been there, done that, knew it was going to happen but no one believed me" attitude.

[Obadiah]

I think Saren was evil, and not merely a renegade good guy. That was demonstrated in Revelation.

Kim Shepard wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

I also feel he makes a good comparison point for Shepard, right into ME2; because in 2 you're a rouge spectre filled with cybernetics; it really shows how Bioware is making parrellels.

I like that about both games too. I have a Shepard who I consider the most likely to become Saren, and his ME2 playthrough will end with an uncertain alliance and Reaper tech. Sound familiar?

Hmm, I had not noticed that parallel. I like it. Maybe the writers will take this further in ME3 and have a plot development where Shep finds some decades old Spectre reports in which Saren tries to warn the council (or maybe just the Turian higher-ups) of an existential AI mass extinction threat, and they just sort of ignore him. Hence Saren decides to take the more radical action in ME1 - har har

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 février 2011 - 08:46 .

[Kim Shepard]

Well, I never said he was a "good guy," just Renegade, and Renegade is not evil. I understand that there are a lot of different definitions for "evil" though.

I'd like to see Shepard find some of Saren's old research too. I doubt he tried to tell anyone about the Reapers. At least, not all at once. Maybe the parts that didn't involve "they're an ancient race coming to destroy us all just like the Protheans." He knew the Council wouldn't believe that, and nothing good could come from them thinking he's crazy. Saren basically tried to stop the Reapers on his own. There were people helping with the research, but no one else who knew the full story.

[naledgeborn]

Kim Shepard wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Saren is my favorite character in the whole series. I read Revelation about a year before ME1 came out. The whole breaking the fingers interrogation is what got me into his character. Reminds me of Denzel Washington in Man On Fire.

I should probably watch that movie, because the interrogation scene was what made Saren my favorite character rather than just one of my favorites. I played both ME1 and ME2 before I read Revelation.

darknoon5 wrote...

He didn't want to "protect" the galaxy from humans, he wanted revenge, because his brother was killed in a conflict the Turian's started.

Technically, the humans started it by activating a forbidden relay (even though they were unaware it was forbidden) and building colonies on worlds that weren't theirs to take. The turians' attack was understandable.

Saren did want revenge against the Alliance, and the Council too, but one of his goals was to stop humans from getting too much power so fast. There were many species that had been around a lot longer and weren't allowed to have that kind of power, and with the way humans made first contact, it seemed like they were trying to take over.

Trust me, you won't be dissappointed. He's a "renegade" Ex-CIA operative turned bodyguard fighting curruption in Mexcio. Tried to keep it as spoiler free as possible. 

[naledgeborn]

I'd say that Saren is a "good cop, bad guy". My canon of all canons Shepard is the exact opposite "bad cop, good guy" (disconnects and insults original council as often as possible. a hardass jerk that saved the council, Rachni queen, Feros, destroyed CB ect) but even then the parallels are there.

[Kim Shepard]

naledgeborn wrote...

I'd say that Saren is a "good cop, bad guy". My canon of all canons Shepard is the exact opposite "bad cop, good guy" (disconnects and insults original council as often as possible. a hardass jerk that saved the council, Rachni queen, Feros, destroyed CB ect) but even then the parallels are there.

So in this comparison, "good cop" means following the rules (if any), putting on a good appearance for the bosses, and getting the job done, while "bad guy" means making all the Renegade choices and not worrying about any of the people who get crushed on the way as long as the mission goes well? Yeah, I can agree with that. It reminds me of the "Lawful Evil" morality comparison.

[Xilizhra]

It's unfortunate that there's no real way he could return in ME2, even in fanfic; his corpse was ripped apart by Sovereign's implants and then dissolved.

[Obadiah]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's unfortunate that there's no real way he could return in ME2, even in fanfic; his corpse was ripped apart by Sovereign's implants and then dissolved.

Fanfic? Hmm... maybe we'll find out Saren gave his katra to McCoy before he got shredded.

[Kim Shepard]

If BioWare wanted to, they could find a way. I mean, all it takes in sci-fi is some DNA to completely rebuild his body... and if I remember right, there were some pieces of robo-Saren left when Shepard won the battle, like the top half of his faceplate. The hard part would be convincing TIM to do it, but I think it could be done if he had some critical information about the Reapers. My Shepards would just have to keep the two of them from killing each other after the Reaper threat is dealt with (that is, if Evolution goes down the path I think it will).

[Xilizhra]

What do you think will happen there?



Also, it wouldn't quite help, as it wouldn't have Saren's memories. His head would need to be intact, at least, to build a new body.

[sarahN7]

Well, I think he was first a complete a-hole. When Sovereign presented itself, I suspect Sovereign saw the power and tried to use it. Then he realized how terrible it was and wanted to stop it all, stop the galaxy from imminent destruction, but at that point it was too late.