328 réponses à ce sujet

[-Skorpious-]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

1) And he could have done exactly that in a million ways that are by far less reckless and with far fewer casualties.

Care to name a few examples?

Mystranna Kelteel wrote.

2) I've already explained this quite a few times.  He never should have started an impossible mission in the first place.  And that is quite simply true because he's not fighting a specific battle.  Shepard is fighting a specific battle to save the galaxy.  Garrus just arbitrarily selected a place with criminal activity and said, "Okay, let's shoot that place up."  The difference is pretty obvious...

Shepard - fighting to stop the reapers, a race of super-advanced starships who regularly harvest all organic life in the Milky Way, and who almost defeated an entire fleet of seasoned soldiers with one agent. Any information on them is sketchy at best, and next to nothing is known about them.  

Garrus - fighting to take down the various mercs of Omega. Not the various mercs of Citadel space or the Terminus systems, just Omega. As organic species, their actions can be predicted and countered.

Garrus made progress on his own while Shepard (without the aid of Cerberus) would be fumbling in the dark. Garrus' goals were both far more feasible and relevant than Shepard's are.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote.

3) What he did accomplish is not measurable, and seemingly pointless based on the fact that we see no change at all in Omega.  What do you think happened when Garrus's team died and he left with Shep?  Do you think the remaining mercs didn't swoop right back in, possibly even worse than before to make up for all they lost?
And a life is a life.  Not all those mercs deserved to die.

Garrus saved lives even if the change was non-existent. As you said, a life is a life. Plus, did the civilians of the MSV Strontium Mule deserve to die? The mercs knew the risks and possible crimes they would commit when signing up, while mere merchants had no intention of harming others. A life may be a life, but the fact remains that the various merc groups are not afraid to use violence and slavery to accomplish their goals. What I am trying to say is that the life of a civilian is the lesser of two evils in this case (or lack thereof). 

I know this is a stupid point to bring up, but if the mercs stopped, uh, doing bad things then Garrus would have no reason to continue fighting them. Again stupid, but they aren't completely innocent. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 01 février 2011 - 12:20 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

-Skorpious- wrote...
1) Care to name a few examples?

2) Shepard - fighting to stop the reapers, a race of super-advanced starships who regularly harvest all organic life in the Milky Way, and who almost defeated an entire fleet of seasoned soldiers with one agent. Any information on them is sketchy at best, and next to nothing is known about them.  

Garrus - fighting to take down the various mercs of Omega. Not the various mercs of Citadel space or the Terminus systems, just Omega. As organic species, their actions can be predicted and countered.

Garrus made progress on his own while Shepard (without the aid of Cerberus) would be fumbling in the dark. Garrus' goals are both far more feasible and relevant than Shepard's are.

3) Garrus saved lives even if the change was non-existent. As you said, a life is a life. Plus, did the civilians of the MSV Strontium Mule deserve to die? The mercs knew the risks and possible crimes they would commit when signing up, while mere merchants had no intention of harming others. A life may be a life, but the fact remains that the various merc groups are not afraid to use violence and slavery to accomplish their goals. What I am trying to say is that the life of a civilian is the lesser of two evils in this case (or lack thereof). 

I know this is a stupid point to bring up, but if the mercs stopped, uh, doing bad things then Garrus would have no reason to continue fighting them. Again stupid, but they aren't completely innocent.

1)
A)He could have stayed in C-Sec and promoted the peace and defended the innocent there.
He could have joined another security force on a major planet / colony / station.
C) He could have gone to help Liara and research the Shadow Broker and Collectors to combat the galaxy-wide threat as best he could instead of saying "Nobody will help, guess I'll go kill mercs because it'd be good if Omega was more lawful when the reapers showed up to wipe everything out".
D-Z+) He could have joined countless law enforcement agencies or fought countless enemies that weren't as blatantly impossible as Omega, a space station entirely run by crime.

EDIT: And just to hopefully avoid a tangent, I'm not saying Garrus should have stayed with the reaper fight when nobody was there to assist.  Merely listing it as an example of something he could have done.

2) Everyone who was part of Shepard's team agreed that the reaper threat was real.  Garrus's goals may have been "easier to accomplish" in that it was a clear-cut mission, but that doesn't mean it wasn't important.  And it certainly doesn't mean it was as important or worthwhile.  As I said, he could have gone after any number of oppressed citizens that wouldn't involve taking on an entire space station with 12 people.

3) I never said mercs are completely innocent or that they don't deserve some justice served to them.  I said that going after an entire space station full of them with only 12 people was a suicide mission and a prime example of the decision-making of a poor leader.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 01 février 2011 - 12:28 .

[adneate]

Phaedon wrote...
In ME1, Garrus was a whiny cop who said that he was glad to leave C-Sec and join Shepard, and that C-Sec sucked, and also, that true justice was not served.

We finally reach the heart of the matter, I dislike Garrus because his ME2 incarnation isn't faithful to his ME1 incarnation. If you were never fond of that Garrus then the change wouldn't concern you and this new Garrus, shoehorned into the plot as he is, wouldn't cause you to raise an eyebrow. However the change is not adequetly explained his new circumstances are a slap in the face to the those who bothered to play ME1 and import their game's on the promise that Mass Effect was a trilogy with each game building on the other.

If someone likes this new Garrus, whatever, but he is not the ME1 Garrus and I personally find him somewhat unlikeable and his inclusion in the game baffelling when I look back at ME1. If BioWare had the guts to ignore the fans and do what was best for the character and continuity they would have plopped Garrus into Bailey's chair and not bothered making that character in the first place.

Heck there would probably be a Garrus comic if they did this and you could still have him as a romance option if that's what floats your boat. There is no rule they have to be on the squad and that you can only sleep with somone before a suicide mission of some kind.

[-Skorpious-]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
1)
A)He could have stayed in C-Sec and promoted the peace and defended the innocent there.
He could have joined another security force on a major planet / colony / station.
C) He could have gone to help Liara and research the Shadow Broker and Collectors to combat the galaxy-wide threat as best he could instead of saying "Nobody will help, guess I'll go kill mercs because it'd be good if Omega was more lawful when the reapers showed up to wipe everything out".
D-Z+) He could have joined countless law enforcement agencies or fought countless enemies that weren't as blatantly impossible as Omega, a space station entirely run by crime.

EDIT: And just to hopefully avoid a tangent, I'm not saying Garrus should have stayed with the reaper fight when nobody was there to assist.  Merely listing it as an example of something he could have done.

He choose Omega because nobody else would. The Citadel already has a law enforcement agency, but nobody cares if Omega's citizens live in fear on a daily basis. It may have been impossible, but Garrus neither forced anybody to help him, nor lied about their chances of ultimately dying. Garrus was not content leaning against a rail and wondering if he was making a difference in somebodies life - he wanted to make a difference immediately. A bit compulsive, but incredibly noble of him.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

2) Everyone who was part of Shepard's team agreed that the reaper threat was real.  Garrus's goals may have been "easier to accomplish" in that it was a clear-cut mission, but that doesn't mean it wasn't important.  And it certainly doesn't mean it was as important or worthwhile.  As I said, he could have gone after any number of oppressed citizens that wouldn't involve taking on an entire space station with 12 people.

Again, Omega had nobody. The Citadel or other colonial worlds had somebody to look after them.

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

3) I never said mercs are completely innocent or that they don't deserve some justice served to them.  I said that going after an entire space station full of them with only 12 people was a suicide mission and a prime example of the decision-making of a poor leader.

Hmm...sounds awfully similar to a space marine I know. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 01 février 2011 - 12:41 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

-Skorpious- wrote...
Hmm...sounds awfully similar to a space marine I know.

I've already been over this....

Shepard is going to accomplish a set goal of saving humanity from the Collectors and the Reapers.

Garrus is arbitrarily picking merc hives to throw rocks at.  One is a suicide mission worthy of pursuing.  One is a suicide mission that only a reckless person and poor leader would attempt with 12 people.
Shepard also had the resources and backing of a massive corporation ie Cerberus.

And  there is a reason nobody else would try to bring order to Omega.
1) Because it's in the lawless Terminus Systems, and even if someone could get rid of the mercs and bring law and order to it it would be nigh impossible to defend.
2) Because the station itself is run by criminals and dominated by mercs.
3) Because there's really no real value in Omega. 
4) Because most people are smarter than to try something like that with only 12 people.

Getting rid of the mercs may save a few lives here and there and better conditions for a little while, but, really, how much did Garrus accomplish?
In the end, just about nothing.  I don't dislike Garrus because he has some semblance of nobility.  He does seem to think he's helping.  It's the way he postures and the way he goes about pursuing that goal that I find remarkably unlikeable.

[-Skorpious-]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
I've already been over this....

Shepard is going to accomplish a set goal of saving humanity from the Collectors and the Reapers.

Yes, but Garrus thought Shepard was dead. He thought it was impossible to continue fighting the reapers (I assume he had no idea about Liara). And as I mentioned, felt that Omega needed protection; the Citadel certainly wasn't in need of more police officers. Plus, did you forget that Garrus was all but eager to resume fighting the reapers when he learned that Shepard was alive? 

Garrus' goal was to "fight back" - not completely defeat the mercs, but prove that they are not untouchable. 

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Garrus is arbitrarily picking merc hives to throw rocks at.  One is a suicide mission worthy of pursuing.  One is a suicide mission that only a reckless person and poor leader would attempt with 12 people.
Shepard also had the resources and backing of a massive corporation ie Cerberus.

Garrus would have fought alone if he had too. Those who followed Garrus fought to defend their homeland, a suicide mission they believed was definitely worth the effort. 

Mystranna Kelteel wrote... 

And  there is a reason nobody else would try to bring order to Omega.
1) Because it's in the lawless Terminus Systems, and even if someone could get rid of the mercs and bring law and order to it it would be nigh impossible to defend.
2) Because the station itself is run by criminals and dominated by mercs.
3) Because there's really no real value in Omega. 
4) Because most people are smarter than to try something like that with only 12 people.

Again, Garrus was working with those who willingly volunteered and believed that they were helping their homeland; those who have been forsaken by everyone else. Isn't fighting for the sake of an improved quality of life for you and your family a worthy goal? Or is sitting on your hands a better alternative?

Although Garrus ultimately failed, his actions may inspire others to fight for better living conditions. 

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Getting rid of the mercs may save a few lives here and there and better conditions for a little while, but, really, how much did Garrus accomplish?
In the end, just about nothing.  I don't dislike Garrus because he has some semblance of nobility.  He does seem to think he's helping.  It's the way he postures and the way he goes about pursuing that goal that I find remarkably unlikeable.

Garrus is a police officer who, with no significant backing, accomplished a great feat - he struck terror into the hearts of tyrants. He may not have succeeded, but he did what he thought was best instead of waiting for others to do it for him. Would you prefer if Garrus sat in a chair all day making deals with criminals ala Bailey? Is that a better goal worth pursuing than helping those who cannot help themselves? 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 01 février 2011 - 01:21 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

-Skorpious- wrote...
Would you prefer if Garrus sat in a chair all day making deals with criminals ala Bailey? Is that a better goal worth pursuing than helping those who cannot help themselves? 

Never said anything about making deals with criminals.  You don't have to be corrupt in order to be in C-Sec.  Hey, maybe Garrus could have tried to do something about the corruption instead of whining about it and quitting his job!  Nah, I guess that's not dangerous or edgy enough.

And this has essentially nothing to do with Garrus's "noble" motives/intentions.  I've been over this so many times... Surprising as it may sound, I have a limit to how much cyclical arguing I can take.

You like Garrus; yay.  I don't; equal yay.  If you want to continue this you can go bck to my earlier posts; I'm sure I covered everything you've said at least once already.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 01 février 2011 - 01:31 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Seriously, who the **** doesn't like Garrus? That's like hating Batman or Dirty Harry. It's just an opinion, sure, but having it means you are wrong.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

yeah, so sound sooooo paragon by the stuff you said OP.

lmao.

Modifié par xxSgt_Reed_24xx, 01 février 2011 - 01:45 .

[Pacifien]

outlaworacle wrote...
Seriously, who the **** doesn't like Garrus? That's like hating Batman or Dirty Harry. It's just an opinion, sure, but having it means you are wrong.

But Batman is a dick.

Modifié par Pacifien, 01 février 2011 - 01:53 .

[Bullets McDeath]

Pacifien wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...
Seriously, who the **** doesn't like Garrus? That's like hating Batman or Dirty Harry. It's just an opinion, sure, but having it means you are wrong.

But Batman is a dick.

But like John Holmes', he's a dick everyone can love! I'm really sorry about typing that, by the way. In all seriousness, though, All-Star Batman + Robin taught me everything I need to know about dealing with women and rearing young children. I CAN'T WAIT.

[KendallX23]

not a big fan of Garrus but i don't hate him either...i am agreeing with the SB here...lots of potential,too much of a SHep fan club member to achieve that potential...

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

No matter how much you complain about Garrus, thats probably not going to make bioware completely trash the character in ME3. Just saying.



If you really hate the character this is what you do. Don't do their loyalty mission, and they'll get killed off. See? A caveman can do it.

[cegr25]

jswatta wrote...

* Disrespected his family (ME1)

While the rest of your reasons I can acknowledge (even though I don't agree with them), I don't see really how it is respectful to his family how Garrus chose his own path instead of what his father wanted.

Modifié par cegr25, 01 février 2011 - 02:48 .

[GuardianAngel470]

jlb524 wrote...

I like this OP, though I wouldn't have used the same language to describe why I feel Garrus is an awful character.

His loyalty mission is also a selfish, pointless waste of time but he wants you to do it...

Now that's just downright hypocritical.

Just sayin.

Also, my brother doesn't like Garrus and that's totally fine. Beneath the inflamatory language of the OP there are a few good points. He is easily influenced in ME1 but the OP has decided to hate a character for several reasons that have nothing to do with him but instead with the overarching Reset button applied to ME2.

Garrus however is not a bad character because of his relationship with his father. I disagree that he is a weak character for two reasons.

One, he comes into the game (ME1) with a very strong feeling about duty and how to do the job of protecting innocent people. The player, over the course of the game, can influence Garrus towards C-Sec over Spectres but it isn't as easy a transition as the OP makes it seem.

Two, Garrus again portrays a very strong, independent desire to avenge the men he had on Omega in ME2. He is willing to do it despite Shepard's words that it may not be necessary and only changes his mind after Sidonis speaks, not Shepard.

[Batlass8]

cegr25 wrote...

jswatta wrote...

* Disrespected his family (ME1)

While the rest of your reasons I can acknowledge (even though I don't agree with them), I don't see really how it is respectful to his family how Garrus chose his own path instead of what his father wanted.

To be honest, having been raised in a family where we kids were made to understand that the family is a unit, and while you can talk smack about each other to each other, it's unacceptable to criticise the family to outsiders, the above point is one I can understand.  No matter how Garrus feels about his father's attempt to influence his life, it's inappropriate for him to speak negatively about his parent to Shepard, who is a human and a [relative] stranger.  (Heh, 'relative,' pun!)  This is just from my personal perspective however, and other gamers who were raised in a different setting would probably not see anything wrong with Garrus' comments.

[TheodoricFriede]

Hate threads? again? seriously?

[Reptilian Rob]

TheodoricFriede wrote...

Hate threads? again? seriously?

[NitrAce]

And I don't like you

[J4N3_M3]

i see trolls, everywhere.....

[GuardianAngel470]

J4N3_M3 wrote...

i see trolls, everywhere.....

Just wait till the sun rises, they'll get theirs...