328 réponses à ce sujet

[habitat 67]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

habitat 67 wrote...
Ha ha what is your damage, Heather? I don't think Shepard would be able to fight the Reapers with an army of Kellys.

How is this even remotely relevant to... anything in this thread?
That is, other than your trollish insistence to bash Kelly in some ignorant attempt to insult me.

The point I'm making is that all the characters have their good parts and their faults. All of the characters are valuable to the story in some way. By the way, I love Kelly. 

I just don't understand your mission in continually  insulting certain characters in as many threads as you get your hands on. It's tiring, its annoying and it makes other intellegent things you may have to say carry less weight.

Just what are you trying to accomplish, other than proving to readers that you are irrational?

[Rogue Unit]

I like how you glorify "stopping shipments of contaminated eezo" as "saving lives".

He may have saved some lives from thug activity here and there.  But it's not like Omega is a death camp and he went there to liberate all the people from the gas chambers.  He went there to "bring law" to the lawless.  That's playing space cowboy.  Or maybe space Batman is more accurate, but either way, he's not some saint, especially when you consider all the freelancers he ended up killing along the way.

EDI says that Omega's daily death count was so high that she couldn't pinpoint Morinth's location. So, yeah Omega was a killing ground. I'm willing to bet that the mercenaries that control much of the station were doing most of the killing. And by taking out those mercs, he saved lives.

And those freelancers were trying to kill him. What was he supposed to do?

[jlb524]

darknoon5 wrote...
Garrus is changed BEFORE his loyalty mission...after the loyalty mission is just reminiscing about old times, and some good bro/romance dialog.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the calibrations...

How did he change before?  Because he showed a little bit of remorse for his recklessness?  I don't think he was totally remorseless in ME1 either.

darknoon5 wrote...
Also, you can see the emotion during the loyalty mission, deny it or not.

So?

darknoon5 wrote...
And the last question is irrelavant, I have no idea what direction Bioware will take with him, or any character, just theories. Possibly linked in with your ME1 choices, maybe you'll meet his sick mum and anti-spectre Dad? Maybe he'll recover if you did his loyalty mission, and become less agressive. Who knows?

I'm intereted to see what they do...I have a feeling we will get another rehash of cool Batman Garrus, though.

[Xilizhra]

While I do like Garrus, I don't think Mystranna is being unduly insulting of Garrus, simply offering civilized opinions (not that I agree with all of them). There's no need to degenerate into this sort of discourse.

[darknoon5]

Shavon wrote...

First of all . . who cares" I don't care for the ME2 version of Tali, and no one reallygives a rats ass. If you want to kill someone, send them unloyal through the vents.

Purposefully killing a squadmate just because you dislike them is a bit...

[darknoon5]

jlb524 wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...
Garrus is changed BEFORE his loyalty mission...after the loyalty mission is just reminiscing about old times, and some good bro/romance dialog.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the calibrations...

How did he change before?  Because he showed a little bit of remorse for his recklessness?  I don't think he was totally remorseless in ME1 either.

darknoon5 wrote...
Also, you can see the emotion during the loyalty mission, deny it or not.

So?

darknoon5 wrote...
And the last question is irrelavant, I have no idea what direction Bioware will take with him, or any character, just theories. Possibly linked in with your ME1 choices, maybe you'll meet his sick mum and anti-spectre Dad? Maybe he'll recover if you did his loyalty mission, and become less agressive. Who knows?

I'm intereted to see what they do...I have a feeling we will get another rehash of cool Batman Garrus, though.

Lol, I admit his character was neglected in terms of dialog, but the two main discussions we had with him were extensive and longer, definetly the same length as about two of some of Thane and Grunt's shoter dialogs.

He wasn't remorseless in ME1, but he was willing to shoot down a ship full of hostages to kill 1 man, showing no real reason why not to. While I agree with him to an extent, there you have it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Id' like to challenge the OP on the merits of



* Disrespected his family (ME1)



* Disrespects law and order (ME1)



being bad as I see that as being totally awesome

[Mystranna Kelteel]

darknoon5 wrote...
As I said, Garrus did it to protect the weak, there is dialog clearly showing this. Disrupting drug shipments were only one of his activities.
And Omega isn't a death camp, but there is mass exploitation, violence, gang warfare, and you're pretty much screwed without mercenary "protection," but there is still a lot of death. Also, walk through the lower streets-people are jsut left there to rot.
The freelancers were idiots, going against a trained sniper who'd killed dozens of mercenaries. That kid goes in with no armour if you don't talk him out of it, for crying out loud.

Again, I know what Garrus's reasons were.
That still doesn't change the fact that he caused all that chaos.  He caused the mercenaries to team up; he caused them to start hiring freelancers off the streets of Omega; he caused all that death despite his intention of "doing good".

And still I'm going to ask this question: why?  Why did he go to Omega instead of trying to save people on the Citadel?  Because he was sick of following orders.  Because he was tired of all the "red tape".  So he decided to gallavanting off to some lawless sector so he could finally do things "his way" for a change.  And look where that got him.  There are all kinds of noble causes out there; that doesn't mean they all should be pursued.  And it certainly doesn't mean they should be pursued in such a reckless way.

Garrus's desire to "do good" does not outweigh his impatience and recklessness for me, especially when he still acts like such a cocky idiot about everything.  And by "cocky idiot" I'm referring to his comments like only having to point and shoot to kill criminals on Omega.  As we plainly see, not everyone on Omega is a criminal.  Also his calling the freelancers "witless idiots".  Yeah. they may not ahve been too bright, but he has absolutely no idea why those freelancers decided to take the job.  Maybe they were completely strapped for cash and needed to feed their starving children.  Garrus just recklessly digs himself into a pit because he thinks he knows best, and it never goes right, something Garrus admits himself.

[jlb524]

darknoon5 wrote...
Garrus didn't know his team would get killed, they were stabbed in the back, sold out, betrayed, get the picture? How does that constitute "leading them into fire with the knowledge they would be killed?"

Then, he isn't very bright or capable of any forethought I guess.

What did he think would happen?  He'd take down all the merc gangs and Aria and set up a new and fair government on Omega with just himself and his merry band of 12 men?

[Onyx Jaguar]

But if you continue to kill people at some point you are going to run out of people to kill



Success? YES

[adneate]

Phaedon wrote...
You must have missed the 'skilled' part. You know, the part where Garrus takes down a few dozens with a sniper rifle? Yeah.

Jack killed two YMIR mechs in a cutscene your point is?

Phaedon wrote...
That's a good thing? A helpful one?

Apparently killing mercs is but founding and leading an army isn't. You really are trying very hard to make Garrus relevant to the ME2 plot, I commend your effort at least. Most people wouldn't go through these many twists of logic to try to explain away someone else's shoddy story telling.

Phaedon wrote...
A kitten dies every time this word is used.
If you neither know what retcon means or you can't tell the difference between development/change and retcon, then do the world a favour and stop using it. And yes, I am directing this to everyone using this word.

And I direct you to think about how much your choices regarding Garrus matter in ME1. Look deep down inside you you'll find the answer. Not at all.

Phaedon wrote...
Riiight. You are suggesting that a concept that has been the motive of actual murders, scandals, and the main plot point of books and movies is meaningless.

Meaningful when one properly examines the true motives of those involved, we never hear Sidonis's side of the story. This revenge sub-plot is entirely one sided and told only by the victim, and there are no consequences to it. He can still waltz around the citadel after killing someone in public, that's poor storytelling plain and simple. Maybe try looking for some good revenge storys first? Get some out of video game context for the things you say.

Phaedon wrote...
I don't claim. Revenge is there, and 'black and gray' too. Replay the mission and return back later.

I've played the game all the way through about 8 times now, they're not there in any meaningful or realistic fashion. I can understand if you want to infer them onto his character and are grasping at straws, but in game they are not touched upon in any meaningful or thought provoking manner.

Phaedon wrote...
Harms what? Let me tell you this. There was NO character in ME1. As often was the case for other squadmates as well.

Odd thing for someone so bent on defending Garrus's character from detractors of any kind to just out right claim that in ME1 he had no character. Of course if you really believe that it would make your nonsensical position on the ME2 variant of Garrus make all the more sense. You never liked the character to begin with so a total 180 would be just fine for you.

Modifié par adneate, 31 janvier 2011 - 10:38 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

habitat 67 wrote...
I just don't understand your mission in continually  insulting certain characters in as many threads as you get your hands on. It's tiring, its annoying and it makes other intellegent things you may have to say carry less weight.

Just what are you trying to accomplish, other than proving to readers that you are irrational?

Uh, that's not my goal and never has been.  In this thread I've been defending the people who don't like Garrus from the haters who insist that people who don't like him are stupid and/or trolling.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Rogue Unit wrote...
EDI says that Omega's daily death count was so high that she couldn't pinpoint Morinth's location. So, yeah Omega was a killing ground. I'm willing to bet that the mercenaries that control much of the station were doing most of the killing. And by taking out those mercs, he saved lives.
And those freelancers were trying to kill him. What was he supposed to do?

And that comment about the death count is well after Garrus's mission and well after the three main merc groups were defeated.

So apparently Garrus's goal was to drain the oceans with a straw.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 31 janvier 2011 - 10:37 .

[jlb524]

darknoon5 wrote...

He wasn't remorseless in ME1, but he was willing to shoot down a ship full of hostages to kill 1 man, showing no real reason why not to. While I agree with him to an extent, there you have it.

Wait...so are you saying Garrus was more Renegade back in ME1 than he is in ME2?  Was it not postulated that he's become more Renegade in ME2?  Now I'm confused.

[Rogue Unit]

@adneate



No one "relevant" to Mass Effect 2's plot except Mordin. Garrus is more helpful than most because of the canon he installs on the Normandy.

[darknoon5]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...
As I said, Garrus did it to protect the weak, there is dialog clearly showing this. Disrupting drug shipments were only one of his activities.
And Omega isn't a death camp, but there is mass exploitation, violence, gang warfare, and you're pretty much screwed without mercenary "protection," but there is still a lot of death. Also, walk through the lower streets-people are jsut left there to rot.
The freelancers were idiots, going against a trained sniper who'd killed dozens of mercenaries. That kid goes in with no armour if you don't talk him out of it, for crying out loud.

Again, I know what Garrus's reasons were.
That still doesn't change the fact that he caused all that chaos.  He caused the mercenaries to team up; he caused them to start hiring freelancers off the streets of Omega; he caused all that death despite his intention of "doing good".

And still I'm going to ask this question: why?  Why did he go to Omega instead of trying to save people on the Citadel?  Because he was sick of following orders.  Because he was tired of all the "red tape".  So he decided to gallavanting off to some lawless sector so he could finally do things "his way" for a change.  And look where that got him.  There are all kinds of noble causes out there; that doesn't mean they all should be pursued.  And it certainly doesn't mean they should be pursued in such a reckless way.

Garrus's desire to "do good" does not outweigh his impatience and recklessness for me, especially when he still acts like such a cocky idiot about everything.  And by "cocky idiot" I'm referring to his comments like only having to point and shoot to kill criminals on Omega.  As we plainly see, not everyone on Omega is a criminal.  Also his calling the freelancers "witless idiots".  Yeah. they may not ahve been too bright, but he has absolutely no idea why those freelancers decided to take the job.  Maybe they were completely strapped for cash and needed to feed their starving children.  Garrus just recklessly digs himself into a pit because he thinks he knows best, and it never goes right, something Garrus admits himself.

The freelancers were trying to kill him! What did you expect him to do? It's like the quarians who complain about the Geth not letting themselves be murdered.

Also, Garrus had seen his team die, and hadn't slept for days, which was probably one reason for his remarks. People say stupid and mean things when their hurting, and I really wouldn't consider that a valid complaint. They were clearly trying to murder someone, and were killed in the process. And they were witless if they didn't figure out they were basically just cannon fodder.

Also, if he thought about the possible families of every freelancer he gunned down, he might have died due to distraction or breaking down.

By criminals, Garrus means thugs and mercenaries, the "strong" he talks of who abuse the weak.
The books point to the same conclusion-most people on Omega who are criminals are scum.

[darknoon5]

jlb524 wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

He wasn't remorseless in ME1, but he was willing to shoot down a ship full of hostages to kill 1 man, showing no real reason why not to. While I agree with him to an extent, there you have it.

Wait...so are you saying Garrus was more Renegade back in ME1 than he is in ME2?  Was it not postulated that he's become more Renegade in ME2?  Now I'm confused.

I'm not saying that, but I'm saying his renegade side was always there.

[Rogue Unit]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...
EDI says that Omega's daily death count was so high that she couldn't pinpoint Morinth's location. So, yeah Omega was a killing ground. I'm willing to bet that the mercenaries that control much of the station were doing most of the killing. And by taking out those mercs, he saved lives.
And those freelancers were trying to kill him. What was he supposed to do?

And that comment about the death count is well after Garrus's mission and well after the three main merc groups were defeated.

So apparently Garrus's goal was to drain the oceans with a straw.

If he saved at least one life then it wasn't pointless. Draining the ocean with a straw is better than doing nothing at all.

[darknoon5]

jlb524 wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...
Garrus didn't know his team would get killed, they were stabbed in the back, sold out, betrayed, get the picture? How does that constitute "leading them into fire with the knowledge they would be killed?"

Then, he isn't very bright or capable of any forethought I guess.

What did he think would happen?  He'd take down all the merc gangs and Aria and set up a new and fair government on Omega with just himself and his merry band of 12 men?

I'm not sure. He wasn't stupid, that's for sure. I think he figured if he could take down the leaders, the mercenaries might reduce their influence on Omega-I'm pretty sure in retribution, the decreased influence of the main merc players on Omega is alluded to due to Shepard's actions. He nearly got Tarak and Garm-if two big merc bosses had been killed in such a short time, the mercenaries would definetly have avoided that sector.

What matters is he was making a difference, and suceeding for a while. Who knows what would've happened if Sidonis hadn't turned traitor-maybe they would have moved on to other terminus worlds. Maybe they would have kept picking at the mercenaries until they left. Maybe they would've died anyway. It's all just speculation.

Anyway, I'm off now to sleep, so I won't be able to reply to any posts. Sorry.

Modifié par darknoon5, 31 janvier 2011 - 10:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...
EDI says that Omega's daily death count was so high that she couldn't pinpoint Morinth's location. So, yeah Omega was a killing ground. I'm willing to bet that the mercenaries that control much of the station were doing most of the killing. And by taking out those mercs, he saved lives.
And those freelancers were trying to kill him. What was he supposed to do?

And that comment about the death count is well after Garrus's mission and well after the three main merc groups were defeated.

So apparently Garrus's goal was to drain the oceans with a straw.

If he saved at least one life then it wasn't pointless. Draining the ocean with a straw is better than doing nothing at all.

He'd have needed to save twelve lives just to break even. While I do believe that he more or less succeeded, I think he could have made a better mark in someplace that wasn't the heart of galactic evil.

[adneate]

Rogue Unit wrote...
No one "relevant" to Mass Effect 2's plot except Mordin. Garrus is more helpful than most because of the canon he installs on the Normandy.

That's ME2's "writing" for you it regularly fails to adequately explain anything. Garrus giving the Thanix upgrade isn't a very compelling argument for why he should be in ME2's squad, you could just of easily had someone else give it to you or have him hand over the plans in a bar.

[Onyx Jaguar]

adneate wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...
No one "relevant" to Mass Effect 2's plot except Mordin. Garrus is more helpful than most because of the canon he installs on the Normandy.

That's ME2's "writing" for you it regularly fails to adequately explain anything. Garrus giving the Thanix upgrade isn't a very compelling argument for why he should be in ME2's squad, you could just of easily had someone else give it to you or have him hand over the plans in a bar.

this is correct

also it is nonsensical that the Normandy is multicolored when it very well could just be full on pink