74 réponses à ce sujet

[jswatta]

(I took bits and pieces from other peoples posts).

IN GAME LOGIC & LORE

Firepower
A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion.

Recoil
However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy.

Ammo
The ammo magazine is a simple block of metal. The gun's internal computer calculates the mass needed to reach the target based on distance, gravity, and atmospheric pressure, then shears off an appropriate sized slug from the block. A single block can supply thousands of rounds, making ammo a non-issue during any engagement.

Heat
But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented. The geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips.

OUT OF GAME LOGIC

* Does it make sense that thermal clips are available everywhere you go?

* Does it make sense that every weapon in the universe uses the same thermal clip?

* Does it make sense everyone has adopted thermal clip systems for their weapons over a span of two years and they happen to be the same?

MASS EFFECT 3

Approach the new ammo system with a Hybrid approach.

* You can choose to wait until your weapon vents to cool down or you can use a thermal clip. 

* You can choose to upgrade your weapons to vent and cool down faster but at the expense of firepower & recoil. This means you can do the opposite, improve firepower & recoil but your weapon will vent and cool down slower forcing you to rely more on thermal clips.

* You can choose to upgrade your thermal clips so each clip can be used more than once.

* Sometimes you can find weapons from the dead with thermal clips that match your own and retrieve them, but most of the time thermal clips will be hard to find, so you only use thermal clips when you need to really output a lot of continuous firepower.

CONCLUSION

My above solution adheres to both in game logic, and out of game logic.  I'm open to criticism! Please let me know if there are any flaws.  I like it when things make a little bit of sense, because then it allows you to be more immersed into the game.

Modifié par jswatta, 31 janvier 2011 - 06:27 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Seems like it could work. I imagine firing something like the Widow without heat sinks would be akin to equipping High Explosive Rounds--you have to wait pretty much forever to fire again.

[Glorious_Leader]

I feel that omni-gel should make a return, and among its uses would be the creation of thermal clips in the field.  Just making them rare would be a poor decision, as it would feel like it was limiting the player too much.

Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 31 janvier 2011 - 06:40 .

[Mister Mida]

I approve.

[Capeo]

I think as far as logic is concerned heat build up is a ridiculous issue to even be dealing with in a universe that has FTL travel and Mass Relays amongst other things. Current Metal Storm technology can shoot at a rate 45,000 rounds/minute/barrel without significant heat issues. We have miniguns that can shoot over 6,000 rnds/minute for long periods with no heat issues. I think if we licked that problem today it shouldn't be an issue in the future. Not mention, in a rail gun the slug need not come in contact with the barrel.



More to the point, despite the lack of logic, I like the thermal clip/ammo mechanic of ME2.

[padaE]

As long as they don't sacrifice gameplay I'm good.

[Lumikki]

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

The only thing I'd change is if it overheats, you can't use the weapon until you find a thermal clip.

[LOLZAO]

That is what they should have in ME2,but anyway nice idea i approve.

[Kusy]

Mr. Watamaniuk replying to threads with "constructive" in the toppic > people name threads using the word "constructive".

Well, yeah - it's hard to disagree, however the toppic is dead horse beaten and you are not really bringing anything new or revelatory to it. Another thing is, how would you explain improving the heat system having any kind of impact on recoil, dammage or accuracy? It doesn't make sense unless you'd want to push it as a "gameplay thing".

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:07 .

[Glorious_Leader]

Lumikki wrote...

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

But he makes interesting suggestions for implementing his ideas.  And the gameplay should take lore into account, as gameplay is the method of exploring the universe that the lore creates.

[Lumikki]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

But he makes interesting suggestions for implementing his ideas.  And the gameplay should take lore into account, as gameplay is the method of exploring the universe that the lore creates.

Yes, but it doesn't solve lore problems in weapons what existed from start of Mass Effect games. To make "sense", it has to make sense in all the way, not just trying to fix it from one side.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:11 .

[Glorious_Leader]

Lumikki wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

But he makes interesting suggestions for implementing his ideas.  And the gameplay should take lore into account, as gameplay is the method of exploring the universe that the lore creates.

Yes, but it doesn't solve lore problems in weapons what existed from start of Mass Effect games. To make "sense", it has to make sense in all the way, not just trying to fix it from one side.

The lore doesn't have to be static.  It's acceptable that thermal clips came to prominence in Shepard's two year absence.  For something to exist in a fictional universe, it doesn't have to exist from the very beginning onwards.  By this logic, the Vorcha defy lore.

[ianmcdonald]

padaE wrote...

As long as they don't sacrifice gameplay I'm good.

Bingo.

"Ammo" or heat systems aside, I think the guns in ME2 had a much more satisfying feel to them. A lot of people might disagree, but gameplay is just as important (if not more important) than lore. The story can be amazing but if the gameplay isn't fun and satisfying, what's the point of playing it?

It's easier to forgive a bad story with good gameplay than it is to forgive bad gameplay with a good story.

[CannotCompute]

Yeah, the clip system worked, but combining it with passive cooldown would indeed work better.

That way, you can't actually run entirely out of ammo and avoid having to revert to other means of attacking.
Plus, the levels don't have to be cluttered with fresh thermal clips in random corners (and at unlikely places, such as the Collector ship).

Modifié par CannotCompute, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[JKoopman]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

But he makes interesting suggestions for implementing his ideas.  And the gameplay should take lore into account, as gameplay is the method of exploring the universe that the lore creates.

Yes, but it doesn't solve lore problems in weapons what existed from start of Mass Effect games. To make "sense", it has to make sense in all the way, not just trying to fix it from one side.

The lore doesn't have to be static.  It's acceptable that thermal clips came to prominence in Shepard's two year absence.  For something to exist in a fictional universe, it doesn't have to exist from the very beginning onwards.  By this logic, the Vorcha defy lore.

That's a complete fallacy.

Saying that the Vorcha have always existed in the Terminus Systems and you never saw them in Council Space in ME1 because they don't go there doesn't defy lore in any way. Saying that thermal clip technology was adopted from the Geth by the Systems Alliance at some point after the Battle of the Citadel and was not only passed from the Alliance to the Council, but also from Council Space to the Terminus Systems to achieve complete galactic saturation in less than 2 years makes no logical sense, especially when the stated purpose of thermal clip technology is to allow for greater firepower to compensate for improvements made to shielding technology and yet thermal clips are commonplace in the Terminus Systems where shielding technology is stated multiple times throughout the game and codex to be inferior and less common than in Council Space.

[Glorious_Leader]

JKoopman wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

But he makes interesting suggestions for implementing his ideas.  And the gameplay should take lore into account, as gameplay is the method of exploring the universe that the lore creates.

Yes, but it doesn't solve lore problems in weapons what existed from start of Mass Effect games. To make "sense", it has to make sense in all the way, not just trying to fix it from one side.

The lore doesn't have to be static.  It's acceptable that thermal clips came to prominence in Shepard's two year absence.  For something to exist in a fictional universe, it doesn't have to exist from the very beginning onwards.  By this logic, the Vorcha defy lore.

That's a complete fallacy.

Saying that the Vorcha have always existed in the Terminus Systems and you never saw them in Council Space in ME1 because they don't go there doesn't defy lore in any way. Saying that thermal clip technology was adopted from the Geth by the Systems Alliance at some point after the Battle of the Citadel and was not only passed from the Alliance to the Council, but also from Council Space to the Terminus Systems to achieve complete galactic saturation in less than 2 years makes no logical sense, especially when the stated purpose of thermal clip technology is to allow for greater firepower to compensate for improvements made to shielding technology and yet thermal clips are commonplace in the Terminus Systems where shielding technology is stated multiple times throughout the game and codex to be inferior and less common than in Council Space.

The argument is over whether or not such a weapons system can saturate the small arms supply so rapidly.  This can be argued logically either way.  Take into consideration that thermal clip weaponry and heat sink weaponry are both based around the same concept: heat management.  As such, it could be a simple modification that allows a heatsink gun to accept thermal clips, considering that the mechanisms in the gun are largely unaltered.  This would make the technology catch on rapidly.  The only limiting factor would be the fiscal aspect.  The cost of the clips would be a nuisance.  Yet if one considers that clips may be able to be produced from the readily available omnigel, this problem is also rendered irrelevant.  At first, I thought the implementation of thermal clips strongly contrasted lore, but lots of intelligent posters on the forums have made me realize that that's not necessarily the case.  The only blatant contradiction I can think of is the anachronism that you witness on Jacob's loyalty mission.  Outside of that, I see the proliferation of thermal clips just as believable as the spread of the AK-47s following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

In response to your statement that my argument was flawed, your description of the Vorcha applies more to the Batarians.  Unless one takes Bringing Down the Sky into account, you never see a Batarian in Mass Effect 1.  But you know they exist, as there's enough mention of them that it's made clear to the player that they are a rather important component of Mass Effect's setting.  The Vorcha, on the other hand, are not even mentioned in the most insignificant of details.  The same applies to the Drell.  Both of them essentially do not exist in Mass Effect 1.  This is how they are similar to thermal clips.

Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:49 .

[Lumikki]

My point of make sense wasn't about how termal clips exist or not. My point is that there is paradox in weapons consider "bullets" by Mass Effect lore what also doesn't make sense. It's affected by both games.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:49 .

[Glorious_Leader]

Lumikki wrote...

My point of make sense wasn't about how termal clips exist or not. My point is that there is paradox in weapons consider "bullets" by Mass Effect lore what also doesn't make sense. It's affected by both games.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.  Could you further clarify?

[Praetor Knight]

Here is some info and links to add to Thermal Clip knowledge:

Mass Effect fields help manage the recoil

Lithium is intergral to heat sinks in hand-held weapons, but it would have to used as a thickener in a liquid state so that the lithium does not ignite as it has a low melting point of 180.54 °C (356.97 °F), is highly reactive and flamable in a solid state, with a boiling point of 1,342 °C (2,448 °F).

Also shotguns and SMG's get upgrades that increase their Thermal Capacity.

Thermal Clips seem to be universal, and they could function like a speedloader, refilling the weapon's Thermal capacity with more heat sink material. Since one clip can top off several weapons, and pickups provide variable returns per clip pickup, it's a plausible theory.

Also, when a heat sink is ejected, it glows orange, being above at least 1,100 °C (2,012 °F), (similar to how hot lava can be) and can ignite flamable material. So, even with the heat sinks being small, I cannot see how that much heat can be managed consistently so that weapon can be reliable, even if a high temp lithium thermal grease is used in a circulating coolant system. That is simply too much heat for how quickly ME weapons cool down without failing, as seen in ME when they are overheated.

Here is a youtube video on current research being done on an electromagnetic railgun for the US Navy. Their main issues are the intense heat and the wear and tear on the railgun, in ME, mass effect fields and highly durable ceramics help mitigate the durability issues.


*********************************************************************************************************************

I've been supporting having Shep use the Omnitool to make fresh Thermal Clips after a fight, but maybe there is a better alternative.

The HUD displays the Thermal Capacity of the equipped weapon, so for example, the Avenger has 440 rounds before needing a refill from a Thermal Clip.

So for ME3, I would prefer that Shep carry extra Thermal Clips on the armor that can be used to refill the weapons in a fight.

Here's one way it could work in game and keep the weapons balanced as is, and fit with the Lore:

So what if there was a second finite power that was universal to all classes, similar to Unity, that would allow Shepard to restore the Thermal Capacity of the weapons during a fight? The Skill could be called something simple like Speedload.

So Shep would be able to have this skill available with three uses, and can be upgraded to maybe five or more uses, similar to how Unity gets upgraded. This skill would refill the weapons and have a 6 second cool down per use, in the Global Cooldown system.

Thermal Clip pickups would still be able to refill weapons as in ME2, as well as refill this skill, since the power represents Thermal Clips carried on Shepard's Armor. But the player can also then be able to manually refill the weapons during a fight instead of being forced to scavenge for clips during and after a fight.

Could that be a solid alternative that can work, instead of using a hybrid system?

[Lumikki]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

My point of make sense wasn't about how termal clips exist or not. My point is that there is paradox in weapons consider "bullets" by Mass Effect lore what also doesn't make sense. It's affected by both games.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.  Could you further clarify?

I'm talking amount of bullets inside of hand gun and bullets ability do damage is directly connected to bullets size conflict. Meaning smaller the bullets are, less storage they take inside the gun, but also they do less damage to target. How are and when are Mass Effect "bullet" materials refilled? How many "bullets" really fits inside the gun.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:59 .

[Atmosfear3]

I want the OP to boil a pot of water until it is almost literally bubbling over. Then I want you to wait the amount of seconds it would take for your gun in ME1 to overheat and cool until you can fire again. Now put your hand to the side of the pot.



Please report back with your results.

[Capeo]

Atmosfear3 wrote...

I want the OP to boil a pot of water until it is almost literally bubbling over. Then I want you to wait the amount of seconds it would take for your gun in ME1 to overheat and cool until you can fire again. Now put your hand to the side of the pot.

Please report back with your results.

That analogy doesn't make sense.  Different materials have different thermal conductivities and will cool at vastly different rates in contact with air.  I work in a nonferrous foundry.  Splash molten aluminun on the floor and you can pick up it up a moment later.  Aluminum has extremely high thermal conductivity and gives up its heat readily.  Water?  Not so much.

[SammyJB17]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

I feel that omni-gel should make a return, and among its uses would be the creation of thermal clips in the field.  Just making them rare would be a poor decision, as it would feel like it was limiting the player too much.

Shepard: Don't you miss when you could just pour a bunch of omnigel on something to make it  work?

Answer: no. If you don't think thermal clips make sense, then why would we use a magic gel that opens doors that everything is made out of.

[Lumikki]

I think the person tries to make point, that different material does have different thermal conductivities, but air in atmosphere doesn't. Meaning heat has to go somewhere, it takes more time you think the thing to cool down.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 08:17 .