74 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamesnew2]

+1 ... good post .. solid details to

[Praetor Knight]

Lumikki wrote...

I'm talking amount of bullets inside of hand gun and bullets ability do damage is directly connected to bullets size conflict. Meaning smaller the bullets are, less storage they take inside the gun, but also they do less damage to target. How are and when are Mass Effect "bullet" materials refilled? How many "bullets" really fits inside the gun.

The ME universe projectiles travel at a high velocity and flatten on impact like a hollow point or dum dum round.

The key is the kinetic transfer of energy to the target. So I figure the most damage is done through shear kinetic force, kinda like how a Mace or Flail can defeat plate armor and maim or kill the target with blunt force trauma.

[Zaifon]

instead of completely what OP wants what about this:

a way to make it more gameplay wise good or tactical and yet still fit lore:

• • it is like ME1 it can heat up and end up overheating BUT(!) you can now eject thermal clip, and if you do it at the overheat (instead of waiting) you will gain a special bonus damage for some duration,
  • the clipsize will differ from weapon to weapon, but in general will match ME2 ammo consumption more or less.
• *they are tactical, as you can decide to either seek cover and wait out, or perhaps switch to another weapon "to reserve the clips for a bigger enemy" or just reload the new thermal clip and resume action direct with some sort of bonus power.
• clips can be found by enemies using same kind of weapon that you use, if you have used several kinds of weapons during the mission, you will obviously be able to pick up from other enemies too but they will only be carrying one thermal clip of their type ect.
• What only needs to be done here then is to make overheating and such a tech skill of like, where the class can abuse this thing to their advantage, power or Tech wise.
• At start the weapons take more to overheat and/or clips are easily found, as you progress the newer weapons that become more and more powerful(hopefully announce some nifty crafting/upgrade system) weapons will overheat somewhat easier, unless you are an engineer ect.
• engineers being all that tech fancy, could benefit by having a skill to boost duration/damage of the special overheat bonus and perhaps make it work on their abilities too, thus making it a very different way of playstyle.
• but with weapon upgrades you can increase clipsize or damage size/duration of the overheat clipchange bonus.
• synergy with abilities like incinerate or any Tech talents, while having overheat bonus ect wouldn't be too bad either.

The important thing is obviously the balancing of how much it takes to overheat, how long the cooldown is, and the bonus/award for reloading thermal clips at the right time or with the right class, and having the clips spread out evenly so it won't kill gameplay but make it another way to conserve and yet never actually lose all ammo, which by the way also had some times in ME2 having my 2 favourite weapons AR/Sniper being too low on ammo and being like "Grah wish this was ME1 ammo!" for that moment with exact same hit on gameplay, being forced to use a crappy gun ect.


a hybrid between the two, without killing but improving gameplay making it having tactical advantages using the overheat at the right times with high bonus damage in a short period of time, would be very nice, would be like a second damage skill.

Modifié par Zaifon, 31 janvier 2011 - 08:52 .

[SalsaDMA]

Regarding size of bullets versus damage: Mass is only one of the factors in the formula for kinetic energy. Speed is another factor in it. I can't be bothered to find them, but I'm sure there are pictures somewhere on the net from railgun experiments done where projectiles that are the size of a golfball creates a hole a meter or so in radius in blocks of solid concrete. You should be able to do the deduction of a continuation of that kind of technology to the ME timeline



And regarding Jacobs mission... Urgh... That mission is just one huge gaping maw of inconsistencies and plotholes I'm surprised nobody at Q&A looked at it and said: "Guys... Are we really sure we want to include a mission that holds no ground in either established science nor follows the storyline or science of the universe it takes place in?".



They have state of the art weapons and ammo. They actually have a weapon research for you on the mission, illogical as it is for one such to even exist at such a location given the premises. They have state of the art combat robots. There are no children or pregnant women, despite it being heavily implied the women have been 'used' quite thoroughly (in fact no mentioning is made of the fertility aspect at all). The description of the planet after you probe it is inconsistent with what is going on with the mission too (Renyold is described as captain at PLANETFALL, thus making both his rank and the way the reached the planet inconsistent). And appearantly nobody was interested in checking out a garden-class planet that was known and had a vanished exploration team on it...



Seriously... The less that can be said about Jacobs mission in regards to what it should mean for the ME universe, the better.

[Capeo]

Lumikki wrote...

I think the person tries to make point, that different material does have different thermal conductivities, but air in atmosphere doesn't. Meaning heat has to go somewhere, it takes more time you think the thing to cool down.

I know exactly how long things take to cool down.  I deal with molten brasses and aluminum all day.  I have to figure, based on the thickness of what we are casting and the thermal conductivty of the mold at its specific moisture level, how long it takes before we can break the mold open.  Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of about 250.  Air is about .025, which is low, but air convects.  So long as the air can move new cold molecules are being introduced to the surface of the hot body and wicking heat away.  That's why a fan will quickly cool something down even though air's thermal conductivity is low.

[Lumikki]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The ME universe projectiles travel at a high velocity and flatten on impact like a hollow point or dum dum round.

The key is the kinetic transfer of energy to the target. So I figure the most damage is done through shear kinetic force, kinda like how a Mace or Flail can defeat plate armor and maim or kill the target with blunt force trauma.

How ever, more speed as kinetic energy also cause other effects, example easyer it go trough the material of target if it's too soften compared to bullets material and speed of bullet.. My point is that incresing speed doesn't just increase damage,  it can also lower damage, because it go trough the target too easyly. If bullet in very high speed is too soften, then air resistant starts cause problems too. This is not easy situation.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 09:10 .

[Capeo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Regarding size of bullets versus damage: Mass is only one of the factors in the formula for kinetic energy. Speed is another factor in it. I can't be bothered to find them, but I'm sure there are pictures somewhere on the net from railgun experiments done where projectiles that are the size of a golfball creates a hole a meter or so in radius in blocks of solid concrete. You should be able to do the deduction of a continuation of that kind of technology to the ME timeline

That would be mass times velocity squared divided by 2.  Although once you start to get anywhere close to the speed of light that doesn't approximate things well and you have to use relativistic formulas I don't understand.

[Lumikki]

Capeo wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I think the person tries to make point, that different material does have different thermal conductivities, but air in atmosphere doesn't. Meaning heat has to go somewhere, it takes more time you think the thing to cool down.

I know exactly how long things take to cool down.  I deal with molten brasses and aluminum all day.  I have to figure, based on the thickness of what we are casting and the thermal conductivty of the mold at its specific moisture level, how long it takes before we can break the mold open.  Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of about 250.  Air is about .025, which is low, but air convects.  So long as the air can move new cold molecules are being introduced to the surface of the hot body and wicking heat away.  That's why a fan will quickly cool something down even though air's thermal conductivity is low.

It's not about does it cool down, but how fast it does. Does it take 10 second or 120 second. Because there is huge difference waiting ability shoot again 10 or 120 second.

Modifié par Lumikki, 31 janvier 2011 - 09:15 .

[Evil_Weasel]

Here is a little gem from a previous form of this very debate....



Hey, OP, this what you talkin abouts??? Eh??

I actually think this is better than ME1 or ME2 system, I preferred the heat system but feel it was poorly balanced as by the end of the game you did not have to stop shooting.....ever.

Modifié par Evil_Weasel, 31 janvier 2011 - 09:25 .

[JKoopman]

I've never really understood why they would make thermal clips disposable and ejectable. Wouldn't it make more sense, if the objective was to keep up a sustained rate of fire, to simply make an internal revolving cylinder of thermal sinks so that whenever one reached it's limit another could be rotated into place while the other(s) cooled? Kind of like a space-revolver instead of a space-bolt-action-rifle, except with heatsinks in place of bullets. You'd effecively have the best of both worlds: an instantly cool heatsink locked into place at a moment's notice and the same nigh-infinite capacity to put rounds downrange that the old weapons system supported.

Modifié par JKoopman, 31 janvier 2011 - 09:45 .

[Capeo]

Lumikki wrote...

Capeo wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

I think the person tries to make point, that different material does have different thermal conductivities, but air in atmosphere doesn't. Meaning heat has to go somewhere, it takes more time you think the thing to cool down.

I know exactly how long things take to cool down.  I deal with molten brasses and aluminum all day.  I have to figure, based on the thickness of what we are casting and the thermal conductivty of the mold at its specific moisture level, how long it takes before we can break the mold open.  Aluminum has a thermal conductivity of about 250.  Air is about .025, which is low, but air convects.  So long as the air can move new cold molecules are being introduced to the surface of the hot body and wicking heat away.  That's why a fan will quickly cool something down even though air's thermal conductivity is low.

It's not about does it cool down, but how fast it does. Does it take 10 second or 120 second. Because there is huge difference waiting ability shoot again 10 or 120 second.

What I'm saying is any thermally conductive metal will cool relatively quickly.  We have weapons today that use finned heat sinks that work at ridiculous rates of fire.  Far more than anything portrayed in the game.  So 180 years from now it should be no issue at all. 

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

I've never really understood why they would make thermal clips disposable and ejectable. Wouldn't it make more sense, if the objective was to keep up a sustained rate of fire, to simply make an internal revolving cylinder of thermal sinks so that whenever one reached it's limit another could be rotated into place while the other(s) cooled? Kind of like a space-revolver instead of a space-bolt-action-rifle, except with heatsinks in place of bullets. You'd effecively have the best of both worlds: an instantly cool heatsink locked into place at a moment's notice and the same nigh-infinite capacity to put rounds downrange that the old weapons system supported.

Maybe that's how ME's system works, a liquid cooling system that uses a liquid lithium compound (like a Thermal Grease).

But the concern would be how soon would the lithium compound fail in the system, before having to replace the compound and / or system from repeated use.

I figure that Thermal Clips bypass the concern by disposing of the spent lithium compound immediately and replacing it with the reserve lithium compound stored in the weapon.

Since Thermal Clips are a retrofit anyway, the actual heat sinks can't have changed too much within two years.

[CroGamer002]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Here is a little gem from a previous form of this very debate....



Hey, OP, this what you talkin abouts??? Eh??

I actually think this is better than ME1 or ME2 system, I preferred the heat system but feel it was poorly balanced as by the end of the game you did not have to stop shooting.....ever.

I support this idea.

[Geth_Prime]

Remember the medi-gel system from ME2 where you were given a limited amount but it basically just sped up health regen? Do the same with thermal clips. You get a limited amount of clips for each mission (but you can pick up more) and they basically just speed up weapon cooldown. So it's a hybrid of overheat system from ME1 and thermal clip system. This has probably already been said countless times but oh well.



Also, bring back grenades and limit them like medi-gel.

[TheBlackBaron]

Praetor Shepard wrote..
Maybe that's how ME's system works, a liquid cooling system that uses a liquid lithium compound (like a Thermal Grease).

But the concern would be how soon would the lithium compound fail in the system, before having to replace the compound and / or system from repeated use.

I figure that Thermal Clips bypass the concern by disposing of the spent lithium compound immediately and replacing it with the reserve lithium compound stored in the weapon.

Since Thermal Clips are a retrofit anyway, the actual heat sinks can't have changed too much within two years.

That thread linked last night in the other thermal clips thread (http://social.biowar...3/index/5002527) basically posits, if I'm understanding it correctly, that the thermal clips are actually the supply of lithium, and that the ejection/loading procedure allows you to simply inject new coolant into the system instead of having to wait for the old coolant to recycle/cool back down. 

Made perfect sense to me. 

[Praetor Knight]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

That thread linked last night in the other thermal clips thread (http://social.biowar...3/index/5002527) basically posits, if I'm understanding it correctly, that the thermal clips are actually the supply of lithium, and that the ejection/loading procedure allows you to simply inject new coolant into the system instead of having to wait for the old coolant to recycle/cool back down. 

Made perfect sense to me. 

Thanks for linking that,
I forgot to look for it again, been busy with some other things recently.  

[JKoopman]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

I've never really understood why they would make thermal clips disposable and ejectable. Wouldn't it make more sense, if the objective was to keep up a sustained rate of fire, to simply make an internal revolving cylinder of thermal sinks so that whenever one reached it's limit another could be rotated into place while the other(s) cooled? Kind of like a space-revolver instead of a space-bolt-action-rifle, except with heatsinks in place of bullets. You'd effecively have the best of both worlds: an instantly cool heatsink locked into place at a moment's notice and the same nigh-infinite capacity to put rounds downrange that the old weapons system supported.

Maybe that's how ME's system works, a liquid cooling system that uses a liquid lithium compound (like a Thermal Grease).

But the concern would be how soon would the lithium compound fail in the system, before having to replace the compound and / or system from repeated use.

I figure that Thermal Clips bypass the concern by disposing of the spent lithium compound immediately and replacing it with the reserve lithium compound stored in the weapon.

Since Thermal Clips are a retrofit anyway, the actual heat sinks can't have changed too much within two years.

But that's just it. Heatsinks worked fine in ME1. They cooled fast and they allowed for nigh-infinite fire downrange. Granted, if a heatsink overheated, it was a 6-8 second wait for it to cool; and ostensibly that was why thermal clips were adopted, because the soldier who could put the most sustained fire downrange the fastest had a better chance of overwhelming his opponents defensive measures and winning the battle.

The reasoning behind the change to thermal clips is solid. Their implementation, however, is questionable at best.

Again, if one heatsink in an ME1 rifle was able to allow for 6 seconds of sustained fire before it overheated and it took 8 seconds for it to cool before firing could resume, then simply adding a revolving cylinder with TWO ADDITIONAL HEATSINKS that could be rotated into place while the other heatsinks vented and cooled would allow you to "reload" every 6 seconds and always have a cool heatsink to cycle to in the chamber. You would effectively have a weapon with all the strengths of both systems and none of the weaknesses. More powerful weapons generating more heat? Throw additional heatsinks in the cylinder for it to cycle between.

The way the thermal clips were made to be ejectable and disposed off with each reload instead of being recycled to be used again makes no logical sense, affords no benefit and creates a huge logistical concern.

Modifié par JKoopman, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:24 .

[Evil_Weasel]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Maybe that's how ME's system works, a liquid cooling system that uses a liquid lithium compound (like a Thermal Grease).

But the concern would be how soon would the lithium compound fail in the system, before having to replace the compound and / or system from repeated use.

I figure that Thermal Clips bypass the concern by disposing of the spent lithium compound immediately and replacing it with the reserve lithium compound stored in the weapon.

Since Thermal Clips are a retrofit anyway, the actual heat sinks can't have changed too much within two years.

WHAT??

THE

F***!!!

Lithium? Is a metal btw. Liquid metels are called molten, and molten lithium is around 180 degrees Celcius.

If we were to replace your ..... lithium compound as you call it with somthing that isnt already hot, I am still not sure what your talking about realy, as thermal grease isnt a cooling agent, so much as a liquid thermal-coupleing a bridge between the heat producing object and a heat sink....... Thermal grease on a computer for example goes between your CPU (heat producing object) and your heat sink (a block of metal with a fan or runing water to cool said block). The grease mearly chanels the heat across any gaps were the CPU isnt flush against the heat sink.

Now lets assume you mean somthing cold in liquid form like Nitrogen it melts at -200 or so and in liquid form is about -200 degrees celcius. Such a liquid cooling system would be depleated as it was used to cool a heat sink becouse it warms the liquid nitrogen and as it does so it vents boiled off nitrogen (which is cool becous nitrogen boils at negitive degrees). This liquid nitrogen cell would then be ejected after it was depleated.

[Praetor Knight]

JKoopman wrote...

The reasoning behind the change to thermal clips is solid. Their implementation, however, is questionable at best.

Again, if one heatsink in an ME1 rifle was able to allow for 6 seconds of sustained fire before it overheated and it took 8 seconds for it to cool before firing could resume, then simply adding a revolving cylinder with TWO ADDITIONAL HEATSINKS that could be rotated into place while the other heatsinks vented and cooled would allow you to "reload" every 6 seconds and always have a cool heatsink to cycle to in the chamber. You would effectively have a weapon with all the strengths of both systems and none of the weaknesses. More powerful weapons generating more heat? Throw additional heatsinks in the cylinder for it to cycle between.

The way the thermal clips were made to be ejectable and disposed off with each reload instead of being recycled to be used again makes no logical sense, affords no benefit and creates a huge logistical concern.

Well, the reason I figure there is not a system that works as you describe is because the ME system was just replaced with the ME2 Thermal Clip system, within two years of fighting the Geth. But, it can be possible to have weapons like you describe show up in ME3.

Maybe like some salarian prototype that Shep is able to get a hold of. Gameplay-wise, maybe make it another LMG or even a heavy weapon since it should sustain a high rate of fire and maybe be capable of firing a larger slug.

[TheBlackBaron]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Maybe that's how ME's system works, a liquid cooling system that uses a liquid lithium compound (like a Thermal Grease).

But the concern would be how soon would the lithium compound fail in the system, before having to replace the compound and / or system from repeated use.

I figure that Thermal Clips bypass the concern by disposing of the spent lithium compound immediately and replacing it with the reserve lithium compound stored in the weapon.

Since Thermal Clips are a retrofit anyway, the actual heat sinks can't have changed too much within two years.

WHAT??

THE

F***!!!

Lithium? Is a metal btw. Liquid metels are called molten, and molten lithium is around 180 degrees Celcius.

If we were to replace your ..... lithium compound as you call it with somthing that isnt already hot, I am still not sure what your talking about realy, as thermal grease isnt a cooling agent, so much as a liquid thermal-coupleing a bridge between the heat producing object and a heat sink....... Thermal grease on a computer for example goes between your CPU (heat producing object) and your heat sink (a block of metal with a fan or runing water to cool said block). The grease mearly chanels the heat across any gaps were the CPU isnt flush against the heat sink.

http://en.wikipedia....etals_and_salts

*cough*

Moreover, the codex directly says that liquid lithium and sodium are the two most common coolants used in spaceships and small arms. 

[Praetor Knight]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

WHAT??

THE

F***!!!

Lithium?

Well I'm trying to work with what is stated in game, fitting theories to the available evidence, if it's off then back to the drawing board, right?

Lithium is brought up in the Codex, and a ME planet description, so I was trying to figure out how a stable compound can work to cool the intense heat of the mass accelerator tech with Lithium.

At any rate, I would have preferred another ceramic compound or the use some other coolant in a closed loop system or something, but meh.

Edit: Just checked the wiki on the coolant, just have to know what kind of temps are being dealt with, with the ME weapons.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 01 février 2011 - 12:14 .

[Evil_Weasel]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....etals_and_salts

*cough*

Moreover, the codex directly says that liquid lithium and sodium are the two most common coolants used in spaceships and small arms. 

Im aware of most of that. BTW, read stuff you link to. The things that liquid metals cool, are VERY, VERY HOT. Yes, we use water to cool an engin in our car which gets up to around 200 degrees (the water temp) some days here in texas, but using molten metals for things that get up to 900 degrees plus is nececery for stuff like reactors because water would vaporize instantly and so alternitives are used, such as lead, lithium, etc.

The guns are not reactors and do not have a general operating temp of 700 degrees or more...... so using somthing like moten lithium to "cool" somthing that is already cooler than the melting temp of lithium will result in simply heating the guns up as opposed to cooling them down. So let me know when people start using molten salts to cool their CPUs in their desktops ok?

[Glorious_Leader]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....etals_and_salts

*cough*

Moreover, the codex directly says that liquid lithium and sodium are the two most common coolants used in spaceships and small arms. 

Im aware of most of that. BTW, read stuff you link to. The things that liquid metals cool, are VERY, VERY HOT. Yes, we use water to cool an engin in our car which gets up to around 200 degrees (the water temp) some days here in texas, but using molten metals for things that get up to 900 degrees plus is nececery for stuff like reactors because water would vaporize instantly and so alternitives are used, such as lead, lithium, etc.

The guns are not reactors and do not have a general operating temp of 700 degrees or more...... so using somthing like moten lithium to "cool" somthing that is already cooler than the melting temp of lithium will result in simply heating the guns up as opposed to cooling them down. So let me know when people start using molten salts to cool their CPUs in their desktops ok?

We don't have any information on the temperatures of the mechanisms of the small arms in Mass Effect, to my knowledge.  You're going to have to cite a source if you want us to believe that liquid lithium, or a potential isotope of the element, is universally hotter than the internal mechanisms of infantry weaponry in the Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 01 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[Kusy]

Anyhow, this analysis is so deep that I better put my wellies on!

Modifié par Mr.Kusy, 01 février 2011 - 12:18 .

[Sidney]

What you realize with the detailed lore about how the guns work (chopping off chunks of material) the biggest problem isn't heat but WTF ammo powers or ammo upgrades do. The goofy "magic" ammo powers of ME2 almost make more sense because you can't turn that block of metal into an AP or a Shredder Round based on some sort of an upgrade.