74 réponses à ce sujet

[Praetor Knight]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

So let me know when people start using molten salts to cool their CPUs in their desktops ok?

Good thing CPUs and GPUs don't get that hot then!



We just have to know how hot mass accelerator tech gets.

[Glorious_Leader]

Sidney wrote...

What you realize with the detailed lore about how the guns work (chopping off chunks of material) the biggest problem isn't heat but WTF ammo powers or ammo upgrades do. The goofy "magic" ammo powers of ME2 almost make more sense because you can't turn that block of metal into an AP or a Shredder Round based on some sort of an upgrade.

I would imagine the gun adds some form of incendiary agent or electrical pulse source to the barrel's lining, which the slug picks up traces of on its way out.  Really, there's a million ways to explain that phenomenon, considering the technology available in Mass Effect's setting.  Shredder rounds probably is some kind of program in the gun's computer systems that turns the bullet into the equivalent of a contemporary hollow tip round when it's shaving off the slug, while the AP would work in the same fashion, only having something with similar performance specifications to a modern fmj or anti-material round.

[Evil_Weasel]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well I'm trying to work with what is stated in game, fitting theories to the available evidence, if it's off then back to the drawing board, right?

Lithium is brought up in the Codex, and a ME planet description, so I was trying to figure out how a stable compound can work to cool the intense heat of the mass accelerator tech with Lithium.

At any rate, I would have preferred another ceramic compound or the use some other coolant in a closed loop system or something, but meh.

Edit: Just checked the wiki on the coolant, just have to know what kind of temps are being dealt with, with the ME weapons.

Maybe the devs think the guns are that hot, but that would make more sense for ME1 systems were you had to wait for guns to cool (or wait for the lithium to return to a solid state). But in ME2 I suspect a copper-iron alloy as that would absorb heat fast and be disposable and of course be glowing red when ejected, if a low melting point metal like lithium is used it would be part of this alloy otherwise you may on ocasion eject molten metal, posibly burning you and causing jams when attempting to eject the next spent sink.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

Sorry, but OP is not neutral analysis.It puts more value in lore than in gameplay. Meaning it make assumption that lore is right and gameplay is not. That's not only assumtion what can be made.

Wha? He's not making such assumption at all. There's nothing wrong in putting more value in lore, gameplay can fit with lore, so why not try to make it so? It will only make a more consistent game with each of its elements in accordance. If you can make a small change so everything fits with lore, it's technically better. The difference between ME2's system and an hybrid one is minimal.  Well, it would change gameplay to a certain point, but it's only adding the possibility of venting your guns. I don't know how anyone would be against that, it even makes the gameplay deeper and more tactical.

[TheBlackBaron]

Evil_Weasel wrote...
Im aware of most of that. BTW, read stuff you link to. The things that liquid metals cool, are VERY, VERY HOT. Yes, we use water to cool an engin in our car which gets up to around 200 degrees (the water temp) some days here in texas, but using molten metals for things that get up to 900 degrees plus is nececery for stuff like reactors because water would vaporize instantly and so alternitives are used, such as lead, lithium, etc.

The guns are not reactors and do not have a general operating temp of 700 degrees or more...... so using somthing like moten lithium to "cool" somthing that is already cooler than the melting temp of lithium will result in simply heating the guns up as opposed to cooling them down. So let me know when people start using molten salts to cool their CPUs in their desktops ok?

I do read the stuff I link to. The mass accelerator technology used in ME means that infantry weapons amount to micro-scaled, rapid-fire railguns. I would imagine that involves generating -tremendous- amounts of waste heat, and that has to go somewhere. 

By the way, you're from Texas? Which part? 

[Praetor Knight]

Evil_Weasel wrote...

Maybe the devs think the guns are that hot, but that would make more sense for ME1 systems were you had to wait for guns to cool (or wait for the lithium to return to a solid state). But in ME2 I suspect a copper-iron alloy as that would absorb heat fast and be disposable and of course be glowing red when ejected, if a low melting point metal like lithium is used it would be part of this alloy otherwise you may on ocasion eject molten metal, posibly burning you and causing jams when attempting to eject the next spent sink.

I thought of that too.

And I figure that the weapons themselves are made of durable ceramic materials (I want to say I heard Captain Matsuo have dialogue about that in ME, but I gotta replay that section to confirm it).

Also, I just remembered, there is Zaeed's LM were the ejected material is used as an igniter.

So that ejected material is at least hotter then 257 °C (494.6 °F) if that liquid was gasoline.

I had assumed the ejected material was at a higher temperature since they are glowing orange when ejected.

[Glorious_Leader]

Lumikki wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

My point of make sense wasn't about how termal clips exist or not. My point is that there is paradox in weapons consider "bullets" by Mass Effect lore what also doesn't make sense. It's affected by both games.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say.  Could you further clarify?

I'm talking amount of bullets inside of hand gun and bullets ability do damage is directly connected to bullets size conflict. Meaning smaller the bullets are, less storage they take inside the gun, but also they do less damage to target. How are and when are Mass Effect "bullet" materials refilled? How many "bullets" really fits inside the gun.

Guns in Mass Effect don't have "bullets".  They fire metal shavings from a large block of metal inside of the gun. The shavings are put under the influence of the mass effect, propelling them at ultra high velocities.

Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 01 février 2011 - 12:43 .

[TheBlackBaron]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
I thought of that too.

And I figure that the weapons themselves are made of durable ceramic materials (I want to say I heard Captain Matsuo have dialogue about that in ME, but I gotta replay that section to confirm it).

Yeah, she's got a throwaway line about how her security people "flashing some ceramic" makes the corporations talk politely to each other. 

[JKoopman]

Sidney wrote...

What you realize with the detailed lore about how the guns work (chopping off chunks of material) the biggest problem isn't heat but WTF ammo powers or ammo upgrades do. The goofy "magic" ammo powers of ME2 almost make more sense because you can't turn that block of metal into an AP or a Shredder Round based on some sort of an upgrade.

Ammunition upgrades aren't hard to understand. Just look at it as changing the ammunition block inside the weapon.

Anti-Personel Rounds? Change the way the internal computer shaves off the ammo chip, making it flatter and serrated so it deals more damage to fleshy targets similar to how the Evicerator shotgun works in ME2.

Anti-Armor Rounds? Change the ammunition block to a heavier metal, like tungsten.

Radioactive Rounds? Change the ammunition block to something faintly radioactive; apparently solid-state polonium.

Hammerhead Rounds? Again, achieved using a heavier metal and changing the way the computer shaves the chip, making it wider so it doesn't penetrate as easily but transfers more energy to the target.

Disruptor Rounds? Apparently ditches the ammo block entirely and modifies the weapon to fire streams of energized protons that bypass kinetic shields.

Admittedly where it starts to get a bit shaky is with Inferno, Cryo and High-Explosive Rounds.

But simply pushing a few buttons on your weapon and suddenly you're now shooting Armor-Piercing Rounds instead of Disruptor Rounds like in ME2? Not so much sense.

Modifié par JKoopman, 01 février 2011 - 12:53 .

[TheBlackBaron]

JKoopman wrote...
Admittedly where it starts to get a bit shaky is with Inferno, Cryo and High-Explosive Rounds.

Cryo apparently uses cooling lasers to collapse the ammo into Bose-Einstein condensate, and incendiary uses a thermite paste.

No clue about the HE rounds, though. 

[madmansfury]

I've read most of the post here, and i see rampant use of "too much logic". Remember, in video games if use too much logic nothing makes sense. I personally do not like the therm clips. the Op makes a good comprimise: let the player decide whether they want to use therm clips or heat sinks

with each having its own positives an negatives.

[Evil_Weasel]

JKoopman wrote...

Sidney wrote...

What you realize with the detailed lore about how the guns work (chopping off chunks of material) the biggest problem isn't heat but WTF ammo powers or ammo upgrades do. The goofy "magic" ammo powers of ME2 almost make more sense because you can't turn that block of metal into an AP or a Shredder Round based on some sort of an upgrade.

Ammunition upgrades aren't hard to understand. Just look at it as changing the ammunition block inside the weapon.

Anti-Personel Rounds? Change the way the internal computer shaves off the ammo chip, making it flatter and serrated so it deals more damage to fleshy targets similar to how the Evicerator shotgun works in ME2.

Anti-Armor Rounds? Change the ammunition block to a heavier metal, like tungsten.

Radioactive Rounds? Change the ammunition block to something faintly radioactive; apparently solid-state polonium.

Hammerhead Rounds? Again, achieved using a heavier metal and changing the way the computer shaves the chip, making it wider so it doesn't penetrate as easily but transfers more energy to the target.

Disruptor Rounds? Apparently ditches the ammo block entirely and modifies the weapon to fire streams of energized protons that bypass kinetic shields.

Admittedly where it starts to get a bit shaky is with Inferno, Cryo and High-Explosive Rounds.

But simply pushing a few buttons on your weapon and suddenly you're now shooting Armor-Piercing Rounds instead of Disruptor Rounds like in ME2? Not so much sense.

Nice post. ^

Im from Texarkana, the most north east city in Texas.

As for the Lithium, it does melt at a temp lower than gasoline ignites (but not the fumes, they will ignite at a lower temp).

But as for the way ammo "powers" work in ME2 is the most stupid thing the game has going for it. Im for real, for all the little gripes I have the "ammo mod powers" is the biggest pile of S*IT.

Basicly you have the equevelent of firmware on your guns that controls how and what is shaved off your ammo brick stored in the gun. Sqaud mates can even give you an ammo power too.....so why cant I have a technition on the Normandy hit me up with some inferno mod before I leave the ship.....or run down to the forward battery and have Garrus hit me up with some sweet armor piercing ammo, or just have him do it while I am on my way out the airlock? Why do I need to invest skillpoints in developing firmware for my weapons at all when that ........ whatever they just didnt have enough powers for characters and made that crap up is what they did. It is stupid and does not even make sense why it cant be done before you leave the ship by the best exper ammo firmware tech Cerberus could find.

The best expert ammo tech or B.E.A.T guy would be named Billy Holt and would hang out near the airlock and would get new ammo specs from research with planet mining resources. Eventualy we would all be shooting Armor Piercing-Incendiary-Disrupter rounds down range at our enimies, thanks for the firmware upgrade Billy.

[TheBlackBaron]

Evil_Weasel wrote...
Im from Texarkana, the most north east city in Texas.

Cool. I'm from Dallas. 

And yeah, I think the ammo powers idea was by far the single stupidest thing they added in ME2. I'd very much prefer they go back to the ME1 system there, as well as for upgrades in general, while vastly cutting down on the clutter the I-X system created. 

[Sidney]

JKoopman wrote...
Ammunition upgrades aren't hard to understand. Just look at it as changing the ammunition block inside the weapon.

Anti-Personel Rounds? Change the way the internal computer shaves off the ammo chip, making it flatter and serrated so it deals more damage to fleshy targets similar to how the Evicerator shotgun works in ME2.

Anti-Armor Rounds? Change the ammunition block to a heavier metal, like tungsten.

Radioactive Rounds? Change the ammunition block to something faintly radioactive; apparently solid-state polonium.

Hammerhead Rounds? Again, achieved using a heavier metal and changing the way the computer shaves the chip, making it wider so it doesn't penetrate as easily but transfers more energy to the target.

Disruptor Rounds? Apparently ditches the ammo block entirely and modifies the weapon to fire streams of energized protons that bypass kinetic shields.

Admittedly where it starts to get a bit shaky is with Inferno, Cryo and High-Explosive Rounds.

The fact that your gun has some sort of multi-tooling lathe is silly, no offense but it is a nice explanation, and if it does how do you go through X levels of upgrades to it and why the heck isn't already there to begin with? Sorry, the ammo upgrades are a bad idea that doesn't fit cannon. The only thing it fits are that people are so used to getting fiore and ice arrows this was a "normal" part of a game rather it made any sense ot not.

[Gleym]

madmansfury wrote...

I've read most of the post here, and i see rampant use of "too much logic". Remember, in video games if use too much logic nothing makes sense. I personally do not like the therm clips. the Op makes a good comprimise: let the player decide whether they want to use therm clips or heat sinks
with each having its own positives an negatives.

The word is SCIENCE-Fiction. Logic is to be expected. If you wanna play a game that throws all logic out the window, go play Mario Bros or Conker's Bad Fur Day.

[Lotion Soronarr]

OUT OF GAME LOGIC

* Does it make sense that thermal clips are available everywhere you go?

* Does it make sense that every weapon in the universe uses the same thermal clip?

* Does it make sense everyone has adopted thermal clip systems for their weapons over a span of two years and they happen to be the same?

One word:
Standardization.

Given that 5.56mm and 7.54mm (two variants) are practilcy everywhere in the world, I don't see what's so strange.

It's even simpler with heat sinks, since barrel length and width have no influence on it - only weapon size.

[Wulfram]

Why can't I leave my heavy pistol and shotgun behind and take more ammunition for my rifles?

[Lumikki]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Guns in Mass Effect don't have "bullets".  They fire metal shavings from a large block of metal inside of the gun. The shavings are put under the influence of the mass effect, propelling them at ultra high velocities.

"Bullet" is any material fired from the gun. Even middle age musket balls where "bullets". Meaning if the gun is not energy weapon, it allways fire "bullets". Higher the velocities in "bullet" speed cause smaller "bullets", because it's natural law of when two object repel each others, they create equal force between them related mass and speed of those objects. Human hand can't handle too high force caused when gun is fired.  Also material doesn't come from nothing, as material is lost in "bullets", it lowers the amount of materials inside the gun. In Mass Effect case, there is no infinite amount of materials for "bullets". Also if the "bullets" are so small, they don't have enough "material" cause the damage. It's paradox situation.

Point of this all of course is that while you people try to solve "heat" problem, you should also solve how the guns "bullets" are refilled. Because there is lore problem there too what doesn't make any sense at all.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 février 2011 - 11:37 .

[Grumpy-Mcfart]

Approach the new ammo system with a Hybrid approach.

* You can choose to wait until your weapon vents to cool down or you can use a thermal clip. 

this right here is all I need to be happy with the thermal clip system

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Guns in Mass Effect don't have "bullets".  They fire metal shavings from a large block of metal inside of the gun. The shavings are put under the influence of the mass effect, propelling them at ultra high velocities.

"Bullet" is any material fired from the gun. Even middle age musket balls where "bullets". Meaning if the gun is not energy weapon, it allways fire "bullets". Higher the velocities in "bullet" speed cause smaller "bullets", because it's natural law of when two object repel each others, they create equal force between them related mass and speed of those objects. Human hand can't handle too high force caused when gun is fired.  Also material doesn't come from nothing, as material is lost in "bullets", it lowers the amount of materials inside the gun. In Mass Effect case, there is no infinite amount of materials for "bullets". Also if the "bullets" are so small, they don't have enough "material" cause the damage. It's paradox situation.

Point of this all of course is that while you people try to solve "heat" problem, you should also solve how the guns "bullets" are refilled. Because there is lore problem there too what doesn't make any sense at all.

Kinetic energy = mass * velocity ^2.

Mass effect guns are powerfull because bullets are fast, even if VERY small.
Considering you're hardly going to fire off 4000 bullets during a single mission, replacing the ammo "block" is done between missions. Alternatively, Shep carries a spare block on him.
So it's basicly approximation.


Personally, I'd prefer it if bullets weren't the size of a grain of sand but larger, as it makes more sense to me to diversify...and different mass/speed rating require different armor.
But it works as it is.

[Lumikki]

Okey, little bit more about the kinetic energy "bullet" has.

Just because "bullet" has ALOT of kinetic energy doesn't mean it will release it all at impact, if the material where it hit is too soft for it, like human body. It means the bullet just keep going trough the target, because there is too much kinetic energy in too small area to be released. Basicly smaller and faster the "bullet" is, more likely it is that "bullet" just go trough without cause much more damage than hole what is size of the "bullet". It's same like when needle go trough something alot easyer than some dull item. Bigger the item is, harder it is to get through someting. Increasing the speed does only affect how deep it can go before all kinetic energy has been used.


It's the "bullet" size what really matters in damage done. Why you think smaller caliber weapons do less damage. My point is that with same amount of kinetic energy, it's not same damage done by lower speed bigger item and faster smaller item, because penetration differences.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 février 2011 - 01:52 .

[Glorious_Leader]

Lumikki wrote...

Glorious_Leader wrote...

Guns in Mass Effect don't have "bullets".  They fire metal shavings from a large block of metal inside of the gun. The shavings are put under the influence of the mass effect, propelling them at ultra high velocities.

"Bullet" is any material fired from the gun. Even middle age musket balls where "bullets". Meaning if the gun is not energy weapon, it allways fire "bullets". Higher the velocities in "bullet" speed cause smaller "bullets", because it's natural law of when two object repel each others, they create equal force between them related mass and speed of those objects. Human hand can't handle too high force caused when gun is fired.  Also material doesn't come from nothing, as material is lost in "bullets", it lowers the amount of materials inside the gun. In Mass Effect case, there is no infinite amount of materials for "bullets". Also if the "bullets" are so small, they don't have enough "material" cause the damage. It's paradox situation.

Point of this all of course is that while you people try to solve "heat" problem, you should also solve how the guns "bullets" are refilled. Because there is lore problem there too what doesn't make any sense at all.

No.  A bullet is the projectile inside of an ammunition casing which is propelled out of its case by the gunpowder packed in with it.  And look up the United States Navy's experiments on rail guns.  Small projectiles can do mass damage if they have enough kinetic energy.  And the way guns are refilled in Mass Effect is simple.  When the block of metal that the shavings are taken from starts getting close to running out of materials, it is replaced with a new block of metal.

Okey, little bit more about the kinetic energy "bullet" has.

Just
because "bullet" has ALOT of kinetic energy doesn't mean it will
release it all at impact, if the material where it hit is too soft for
it, like human body. It means the bullet just keep going trough the
target, because there is too much kinetic energy in too small area to be
released. Basicly smaller and faster the "bullet" is, more likely it is
that "bullet" just go trough without cause much more damage than hole
what is size of the "bullet". It's same like when needle go trough
something alot easyer than some dull item. Bigger the item is, harder it
is to get through someting. Increasing the speed does only affect how
deep it can go before all kinetic energy has been used.


It's
the "bullet" size what really matters in damage done. Why you think
smaller caliber weapons do less damage. My point is that with same
amount of kinetic energy, it's not same damage done by lower speed
bigger item and faster smaller item, because penetration differences.

Ammunition is designed with purpose in mind.  And because of this, damage doesn't always coorelate with calibur.  A 5.56 hollow tip will probably do more damage to a human target than a 7.62 fmj, despite the latter being a larger round.  This is because the hollow tip bullet flattens on impact, increasing the surface area that its energy is distributed across, while an fmj will often penetrate its target with minimal damage.  The moral of this story is that damage is influenced by more than the size of a projectile.  Velocity, the specifications of the bullet, the environment the bullet is shot in, all of these impact a gun's performance.  You're simplifying it too much.

Modifié par Glorious_Leader, 01 février 2011 - 02:03 .

[Lumikki]

Glorious_Leader wrote...

And the way guns are refilled in Mass Effect is simple.  When the block of metal that the shavings are taken from starts getting close to running out of materials, it is replaced with a new block of metal.

How many shot you get from this block and how big is this block what is replaced?

  You're simplifying it too much.

Maybe, but it's still the major main factor in damage done and you know it.

[Dexi]

In Codex it says the ammo is designed to shatter on impact, to better transfer the kinetic energy into the target, otherwise the bullets would just go through the target inflicting minimum damage because of the high velocity...

[Lumikki]

Dexi wrote...

In Codex it says the ammo is designed to shatter on impact, to better transfer the kinetic energy into the target, otherwise the bullets would just go through the target inflicting minimum damage because of the high velocity...

Sorry, I like poking holes in lore.

If ammo has very high velocity and it does shatter, it doesn't make big difference.  I mean it does more damage when shatter, but how much? Mass doesn't change so easyly direction when in penetration of material for damage, when the mass has very high speed. Mass in high speed try's to continue the orginal direction. More the speed, less direction change. Oh and remember amount of material what is riping through is what does the damage. So smaller the item was, less damage in total, is it shatter or not. Meaning shatter effect can only increase so much of damage, it's not the miragle maker.

Example 1mm size of item when shatter does not rip football size hole, it just doesn't have enough material for it. Meaning if 1mm item would rip when shatter hole of 3mm, that would be pretty good from it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 février 2011 - 04:00 .