355 réponses à ce sujet

[BurnedToast]

Renegade gets to punch annoying reporters (twice), shove cocky mercs out windows, shoot long-winded blabbermouths, gun down several encounters before they even start, and headbutt a krogen



Paragon gets extra pointless e-mails, a few insignificant cameos, and the "reapers" turian left alive to annoy you.



Who gets the short end of the stick here again?

[Schneidend]

jbblue05 wrote...

Shepard isn't a normal  marine

At the start of ME1 he is just a normal marine with N7 training. It still doesn't mean he has the same non-combat training as the other squadmates. His training is limited to combat.

You might as well recruit every soldier that survived Eden Prime.  Because the people on Eden Prime actually fought Geth one of your biggest enemies.

Why? We only found one, and the others are just more marines. Including Shepard, I already have three of those.

Its generally a bad idea to bring an unknown with you when you have the luxury of people who have the same training as you.
I guess your a person who sees nothing wrong with getting people off the streets

That their training is different than mine is exactly why I would want them. They know how to do things I don't have much experience with.

Metagaming I'm talking about before you meet Garrus.  Their is no doubt in my mind that Garrus shouldd've been a spectre based off what he did in ME2

Garrus was doing his job like he's suppose to.
I'm sure other C-sec grunts have saved a hostage too.
How is shooting a distracted thug makes Garrus look like a badass soldier that you have to recruit
If anything ME2 makes Garrus look like a total badass

A distracted, jumpy thug who could move unexpectedly at any moment and ruin the shot. Dr. Michel's head was right next to the thug's head.

It was a difficult shot, and Garrus ace'd it. But, more than that, he knows how to investigate crimes and deal with the criminal element. Shepard doesn't have that kind of training.

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As a fire team member, Liara's prothean expertise was never critical in the least.

She's a powerful biotic.

Besides Liara's brain-melding plot contrivance, what specialized skills do the aliens have that no human providable by the Alliance could?

An alien perspective? They can help me interact with other aliens. Shepard's social interactions with aliens prior to ME1 are not defined, and given all the questions you can ask could be assumed to be quite limited.

Besides the whole 'aliens mature at different rates', Tali identifies herself as her pilgramige being a rite of adulthood. That, along with her otherwise inexperience, make the 'teenager' tagline socially, if not chronologically, reasonable.

Sort of how like just because Liara's 100 doesn't mean she's not barely out of Asari childhood equivalence.

Despite her "inexperience," Tali had to take down a geth squad to get that recording of Saren. It may be a rite of adulthood, but she's physically fully matured and has been trained to fight and survive before leaving the Fleet.

Whether its reasonable is not what I argued. Whether its correct is a matter of perspective. I don't believe calling Tali a teenager is correct, and I think I've backed up that idea adequately.

But military training is still military training, and for a number of reasons military-to-military compatibility is much more feasible and easier to adapt than military-to-civilian or military-to-hired-thug.

All the alien squadmates except perhaps Liara have some form of military training. All turians have military training, Wrex is a battlemaster (the most highly trained krogan), and Tali comes from a society under permanent martial law and was trained to go out into the galaxy alone and survive by that society.

Regardless, I only made this statement because the poster I was quoting contradicted himself. He keeps demanding to recruit people with the same training, and Spectres would have different training by his own definitions.

[Schneidend]

EDIT: Double post.

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[AkiKishi]

Schneidend wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Shepard isn't a normal  marine

At the start of ME1 he is just a normal marine with N7 training. It still doesn't mean he has the same non-combat training as the other squadmates. His training is limited to combat.

I remember taking one look through the sniper scope and thinking how the heck did he pass markmanship training to be a sniper..

Whatever made him a potential SPECTRE candidate is in the background. War hero , sole survivour etc.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 février 2011 - 09:17 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As a fire team member, Liara's prothean expertise was never critical in the least.

She's a powerful biotic.

So what? All Asari have biotics. Many of them can be considered powerful. Some of them even have military training.

Come to that, biotic humans with military training exist as well.

An alien perspective? They can help me interact with other aliens. Shepard's social interactions with aliens prior to ME1 are not defined, and given all the questions you can ask could be assumed to be quite limited.

Besides alien experts, that's a reason for maybe talking to her on the ship (where her perspective comes into play most relevantly), not why she should be on the fire-team in the danger zone.

Despite her "inexperience," Tali had to take down a geth squad to get that recording of Saren. It may be a rite of adulthood, but she's physically fully matured and has been trained to fight and survive before leaving the Fleet.

And she's still emotionally/socially a teen, and survival training is hardly the same as military training.

By wide, wiiiiiide margins.

Nor does being able to attack Geth mean you aren't a maturing teenager.

Whether its reasonable is not what I argued. Whether its correct is a matter of perspective. I don't believe calling Tali a teenager is correct, and I think I've backed up that idea adequately.

I don't. Socially, she's a Quarian teenage. Mentally, she's a quarian teenager. Culturally, she's a quarian teenager. By self-admission, she's in that phase of reaching adulthood, equivalent to Human teenager.

The only standard by which she is not a teenager is human calendar years.

All the alien squadmates except perhaps Liara have some form of military training. All turians have military training, Wrex is a battlemaster (the most highly trained krogan), and Tali comes from a society under permanent martial law and was trained to go out into the galaxy alone and survive by that society.

Krogan don't have a unified military, nor was Wrex in a war to claim that sort of experience. Battlemasters are tough, but they are tough for entirely different reasons than integrated, systemic training.

The Migrant Fleet, as Tali will be the first to inform you, is not under de facto military law. Nor does military law make everyone under it military-qualified. The Migrant Fleet does have it's military, the Marines, and Tali is not part of them. The survival/adaptation training she got is the same that they give to every Quarian, not dedicated military training.

The only alien crewmate with actual military training is Garrus.

Regardless, I only made this statement because the poster I was quoting contradicted himself. He keeps demanding to recruit people with the same training, and Spectres would have different training by his own definitions.

He wasn't contradicting himself. You just don't know what he meant.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 février 2011 - 01:09 .

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Krogan don't have a unified military, nor was Wrex in a war to claim that sort of experience. Battlemasters are tough, but they are tough for entirely different reasons than integrated, systemic training.

Wasn't Wrex in the Krogan Rebellion and gained fame for his prowess in battle during it? To have been on the front lines and having survived that century/centuries long war likely makes him more experiance in ground warfare then any living human being in the Mass Effect universe.

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Krogan don't have a unified military, nor was Wrex in a war to claim that sort of experience. Battlemasters are tough, but they are tough for entirely different reasons than integrated, systemic training.

Wasn't Wrex in the Krogan Rebellion and gained fame for his prowess in battle during it? To have been on the front lines and having survived that century/centuries long war likely makes him more experiance in ground warfare then any living human being in the Mass Effect universe.

No.

That was his Grandfather. Part of the family-armor quest pickup, as I recall.


Edit: On the wiki citation of his dossier, Wrex may have become a clan leader (the youngest ever) during the end-phase of the Rebellions, but no mention is made of him as a war hero of any sort.

I don't think anyone would argue that an average Krogan has experience out the wazoo, but that's not the same as inter-operability as a professional military.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 février 2011 - 02:47 .

[Subach_Innes]

BurnedToast wrote...

Renegade gets to punch annoying reporters (twice), shove cocky mercs out windows, shoot long-winded blabbermouths, gun down several encounters before they even start, and headbutt a krogen

Paragon gets extra pointless e-mails, a few insignificant cameos, and the "reapers" turian left alive to annoy you.

Who gets the short end of the stick here again?

That's one way to look at it, and I certainly agree that Renegade is just more fun. However, I think part of the issue is that the conseqences of the imported choices are pretty much always positive for Paragons. Whereas for Renegades, the results are always the same, or slightly worse.
Particularly annoying is that the all-human council acts pretty much the same way as the old council does. Their denial of the Reapers flies in the face of  ME's Renegade ending, where the all-human council is formed specifically to provide united leadership against the Reaper threat.
Oh, and there's race-riots, too, which seemingly contradict Udina's lines that the other races believe in humanity, due to Shepard's ruthlessness in the fight against Saren, unless he was just talking about the leadership and not the citizenry. Udina's not the most trustworthy individual, but I don't recall a time where he outright lied.

Still, I'm giving Bioware the benefit of the doubt that they won't completely screw Renegades over in ME3, I couldn't care less about not having a bunch of oversized ants on my side, as long as I get some sweet reaper tech.

[jbblue05]

Schneidend wrote...

At the start of ME1 he is just a normal marine with N7 training. It still doesn't mean he has the same non-combat training as the other squadmates. His training is limited to combat.

Shepard is an N7 "special forces" marine Shepard can be train in espionage, sabotage ,  recon,infiltration, etc.
Judgin by how you play your Shepard she/he can be quite the diplomat and detective

Why? We only found one, and the others are just more marines. Including Shepard, I already have three of those.

Your entire crew is Alliance you might as well fire them and add aliens with diverse training because you never know they might know something the Alliace crew doesn't know

That their training is different than mine is exactly why I would want them. They know how to do things I don't have much experience with.

Well that's you I bet most if not all military commanders would want combatibility soldiers with similar training that work well as a team and trust 

Bringing unknowns and people off the streets is a really bad idea

Wrex was ready to blow your brains out on Virmire. Alliance  Marines like Ashley and Kaidan have 100% unquestionable loyalty to Shepard.  Wrex also gets pissed  if you release the rachni queen

Tali uses Shepard to progress her pilgrimage if you  don't give her the data she throws a fit and she's not a 100% focused on the mission. She even tells you she plans on returning to her pilgrimage ASAP.

Garrus never stops complaing while aboard the Normandy. In ME2 Garrus is a great example of how recruiting people off the streets can go horribly wrong.  All it takes is one person to ruin all the good you are doing.

Liara is enamored with Shepard I was expecting her to betray me on Noveria but she didn''t
.
With Alliance Marines they won't betray you and they stand behind you a 100% of the time.

A distracted, jumpy thug who could move unexpectedly at any moment and ruin the shot. Dr. Michel's head was right next to the thug's head.

It was a difficult shot, and Garrus ace'd it. But, more than that, he knows how to investigate crimes and deal with the criminal element. Shepard doesn't have that kind of training.

Garrus expertise only works on the Citadel.  He doesn't know how the judicial branch works on other worlds like Noveria or Omega.
Shepard's job is to apprehend or kill Saren.  Saren is already considered rogue by the Council so Shepard already has the green light to kill Saren.
I don't see how Garrus filing papers is going to stop Saren

[Confused_Shepard]

To be honest all Renegades seem to do is Kill this, destroy that

On the other hand Paragon's have to solve problems like a puzzle

Renegades are content to erase the wrong just so they don't have to deal with it

[shatteredstar56]

jbblue05 wrote...

Shepard is an N7 "special forces" marine Shepard can be train in espionage, sabotage ,  recon,infiltration, etc.
Judgin by how you play your Shepard she/he can be quite the diplomat and detective

Your entire crew is Alliance you might as well fire them and add aliens with diverse training because you never know they might know something the Alliace crew doesn't know

Well that's you I bet most if not all military commanders would want combatibility soldiers with similar training that work well as a team and trust 

Bringing unknowns and people off the streets is a really bad idea

Wrex was ready to blow your brains out on Virmire. Alliance  Marines like Ashley and Kaidan have 100% unquestionable loyalty to Shepard.  Wrex also gets pissed  if you release the rachni queen

Tali uses Shepard to progress her pilgrimage if you  don't give her the data she throws a fit and she's not a 100% focused on the mission. She even tells you she plans on returning to her pilgrimage ASAP.

Garrus never stops complaing while aboard the Normandy. In ME2 Garrus is a great example of how recruiting people off the streets can go horribly wrong.  All it takes is one person to ruin all the good you are doing.

Liara is enamored with Shepard I was expecting her to betray me on Noveria but she didn''t
.
With Alliance Marines they won't betray you and they stand behind you a 100% of the time.

Garrus expertise only works on the Citadel.  He doesn't know how the judicial branch works on other worlds like Noveria or Omega.
Shepard's job is to apprehend or kill Saren.  Saren is already considered rogue by the Council so Shepard already has the green light to kill Saren.
I don't see how Garrus filing papers is going to stop Saren

I prefer a diverse crew to just an Alliance crew, you have different races working together, which is awesome for diplomatic resolutions, and you have a huge range of talents and abilities at your disposal. Kaiden might be awesome at biotics, but any human can be outdone by an asari point blank.

Bringing unknowns can be a bad idea, but it can also help out.  Liara knew of the customs of Protheans and helped to decifer the vision.  Tali was great at tech and helped out with the ship, especially in  ME2.  

The point of Shepard being Shepard is that she uses people of diverse races, and helps overcome their problems with command, or whatever.  She persuades them to join her and keeps them on her team.  Personally, I was able to talk Wrex down easily, and he trusts you after.  All these people are used to working alone, and you  bring them together to work on a team.
That's one of Shepard's big accomplishments.

[jbblue05]

shatteredstar56 wrote...

I prefer a diverse crew to just an Alliance crew, you have different races working together, which is awesome for diplomatic resolutions, and you have a huge range of talents and abilities at your disposal. Kaiden might be awesome at biotics, but any human can be outdone by an asari point blank.

Bringing unknowns can be a bad idea, but it can also help out.  Liara knew of the customs of Protheans and helped to decifer the vision.  Tali was great at tech and helped out with the ship, especially in  ME2.  

The point of Shepard being Shepard is that she uses people of diverse races, and helps overcome their problems with command, or whatever.  She persuades them to join her and keeps them on her team.  Personally, I was able to talk Wrex down easily, and he trusts you after.  All these people are used to working alone, and you  bring them together to work on a team.
That's one of Shepard's big accomplishments.

If that's the way you want to play your Shepard that's you I just wish I wasn't forced to do the same

I believe Bioware wants you to play Paragon
In ME2 being a paragon represents unity, cooperation, and trust.  The Council races are actively working together

Being a Renegade humans are bullies, corrupt, fascists, and greedy.
Their is no trust among the other races. The Council races aren't cooperating with the Alliance  as much as they could be.  Turians and humans are in a cold war.  Aliens hate humans even though humans saved the Citadel.
I stiil prefer Renegade

[shatteredstar56]

jbblue05 wrote...

If that's the way you want to play your Shepard that's you I just wish I wasn't forced to do the same

I believe Bioware wants you to play Paragon
In ME2 being a paragon represents unity, cooperation, and trust.  The Council races are actively working together

Being a Renegade humans are bullies, corrupt, fascists, and greedy.
Their is no trust among the other races. The Council races aren't cooperating with the Alliance  as much as they could be.  Turians and humans are in a cold war.  Aliens hate humans even though humans saved the Citadel.
I stiil prefer Renegade

I haven't played Renegade yet, but from what's I've heard, Bioware could have been a bit more opened minded.  They probably want to plant the subliminal message that we all need to kiss and hug and save the world from giant insects.

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides alien experts, that's a reason for maybe talking to her on the ship (where her perspective comes into play most relevantly), not why she should be on the fire-team in the danger zone.

If I talk to an asari, and they say something I don't fully understand because of the cultural barrier, I can turn to Liara and tell her to explain. For example, the asari in ME2, like the officer who can't really explain why a Justicar's authority  isn't questioned because humans don't really have an equivalent. And then later when Samara and the asari investigator talk about Samara being arrested and being unable to allow that, one of Shepard's replies is literally "uh, what?"

And she's still emotionally/socially a teen, and survival training is hardly the same as military training.

By wide, wiiiiiide margins.

Nor does being able to attack Geth mean you aren't a maturing teenager.

But it does mean you've been trained to fight by your military-controlled society. It's military training because she was trained by the military.

I don't. Socially, she's a Quarian teenage. Mentally, she's a quarian teenager. Culturally, she's a quarian teenager. By self-admission, she's in that phase of reaching adulthood, equivalent to Human teenager.

The only standard by which she is not a teenager is human calendar years.

Whether you agree with me or not is your prerogative. It doesn't mean I haven't argued my position effectively.

Krogan don't have a unified military, nor was Wrex in a war to claim that sort of experience. Battlemasters are tough, but they are tough for entirely different reasons than integrated, systemic training.

Each clan maintains its own military. That's how they fight each other, and others. They just aren't allowed to have starship weapons.

It says right in the codex that krogan shifted their war doctrine to make each krogan warrior as highly trained as possible rather than rely on swarm tactics. It states that a krogan battlemaster has the training to be a match for several dozen soldiers of other races.

The Migrant Fleet, as Tali will be the first to inform you, is not under de facto military law. Nor does military law make everyone under it military-qualified. The Migrant Fleet does have it's military, the Marines, and Tali is not part of them. The survival/adaptation training she got is the same that they give to every Quarian, not dedicated military training.

Tali is part of the special forces in ME2. She takes part in two such missions. She may not have been there strictly for her combat prowess, but she was there as military in the same sense that Mordin was military during his STG career.

Further, quarian society may not be totally controlled by the military, but it is under martial law. Why would they not give the young adults on pilgrimage military survival training? Granted, it's not explicitly stated what kind of training it is, but considering Tali can fight and use a weapons-grade omni-tool, I think it's safe to assume she wasn't being trained by the quarian equivalent of the Boy Scouts of America.

The only alien crewmate with actual military training is Garrus.

That simply isn't true. Garrus just has the closest military training to Shepard's own. The only squadmate we can't infer has military training is Liara. She has fought and killed with her biotics before, but the fact still stands that she's worth recruiting for other reasons.

[jbblue05]

shatteredstar56 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

If that's the way you want to play your Shepard that's you I just wish I wasn't forced to do the same

I believe Bioware wants you to play Paragon
In ME2 being a paragon represents unity, cooperation, and trust.  The Council races are actively working together

Being a Renegade humans are bullies, corrupt, fascists, and greedy.
Their is no trust among the other races. The Council races aren't cooperating with the Alliance  as much as they could be.  Turians and humans are in a cold war.  Aliens hate humans even though humans saved the Citadel.
I stiil prefer Renegade

I haven't played Renegade yet, but from what's I've heard, Bioware could have been a bit more opened minded.  They probably want to plant the subliminal message that we all need to kiss and hug and save the world from giant insects.

Well at least renegades get the more badass dialogue

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Schneidend wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Besides alien experts, that's a reason for maybe talking to her on the ship (where her perspective comes into play most relevantly), not why she should be on the fire-team in the danger zone.[/quote]

If I talk to an asari, and they say something I don't fully understand because of the cultural barrier, I can turn to Liara and tell her to explain.[/quote]You could also radio her.

[quote]
 For example, the asari in ME2, like the officer who can't really explain why a Justicar's authority  isn't questioned because humans don't really have an equivalent. And then later when Samara and the asari investigator talk about Samara being arrested and being unable to allow that, one of Shepard's replies is literally "uh, what?"[/quote]And yet you didn't need an Asari at hand to ask about that, did you?

Nor would you have been unable to turn and ask a human who would be an Asari-expert, and who's job would be to know such things.
[quote]
But it does mean you've been trained to fight by your military-controlled society.[/quote]No, it doesn't.

The Migrant Fleet is de jure martial law, but de facto democratic. It isn't a military state, the military just holds (but almost never exercises) the right to overrule the civilian government.
[quote]
It's military training because she was trained by the military.[/quote]Not how it works. Military  and military personnel offers lots of training to people (self-defense, for example), but that doesn't make them military-qualified.

[quote]
Whether you agree with me or not is your prerogative. It doesn't mean I haven't argued my position effectively.[/quote]Indeed. But simply because you feel you have doesn't mean you actually have. I am of the judgement you have not.

[quote]
Each clan maintains its own military. That's how they fight each other, and others. They just aren't allowed to have starship weapons.[/quote]Clan-based military doesn't mean standardized military training or a professional military. It's the difference between a soldier and a warrior.
[quote]
It says right in the codex that krogan shifted their war doctrine to make each krogan warrior as highly trained as possible rather than rely on swarm tactics. It states that a krogan battlemaster has the training to be a match for several dozen soldiers of other races.[/quote]It doesn't say that they're trained along conventional military disciplines, however. Nor does that alleged professionalism and expertise ever really show itself... ever.

There are a lot of ways to make people good fighters short of inter-military common discipline.

[quote]
Tali is part of the special forces in ME2. She takes part in two such missions. She may not have been there strictly for her combat prowess, but she was there as military in the same sense that Mordin was military during his STG career.[/quote]Tali isn't special forces. In one mission she's a recovery mission (no allegement of special forces or even innately military), and on another mission she was a science expert. In both cases, she did rather poorly, with a distinct air and implication of not being qualified for leadership. Tali is never identified as a Migrant Fleet Marine.

Moreover, this is in ME2, not ME1 (which we are discussing).

[quote]
Further, quarian society may not be totally controlled by the military, but it is under martial law. Why would they not give the young adults on pilgrimage military survival training?[/quote]Because military survival training, 'how to deal with foreigners', and dedicated military training are entirely different things.

[quote]
Granted, it's not explicitly stated what kind of training it is, but considering Tali can fight and use a weapons-grade omni-tool, I think it's safe to assume she wasn't being trained by the quarian equivalent of the Boy Scouts of America.[/quote]And if the boy scouts taught self-defense, why not?

Tali is decent-good, but it wasn't until ME2 she was ever made out to be anything exceptional. Her skills aren't even in combat (hence the hold the line score), but her overal tech know-how... which was from entirely different sources than the pilgramige track.

[quote]
That simply isn't true. Garrus just has the closest military training to Shepard's own. The only squadmate we can't infer has military training is Liara. She has fought and killed with her biotics before, but the fact still stands that she's worth recruiting for other reasons.[/quote]Tali's citations of military-disciplined training, as opposed to generic Quarian cultural-survival training outside the fleet is... none.

Wrex's military training, as opposed to general accumulated experienceover the centuries is... none again.

[xedgorex]

A lot of the council decision making is metagaming.



If you're IN a battle situation and your lives depend on it and you have the chance to save two things.



Once with the heads of state, and the other a highly capable war machine. And i did mention you're in a fight for your life right? It just makes MORE sense to save the ship that would help you win.



Saying that even if you save the council you kill Sovereign is metagaming. Idc if you save them, but you CAN NOT say that you still killed Sovereign as a reason. There is no realistic way for you to have known that in the moment. So either admit that in a battle situation it makes more sense to save the 5th fleet ship, or come up with another reason for saving the council.

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You could also radio her.

I could also turn to her and talk to her. Besides, to me radio'ing her in the middle of a conversation seems like calling her up on my cell phone. It would be rather rude, I think.

And yet you didn't need an Asari at hand to ask about that, did you?

You ask Samara and the officer what they're talking about. They happened to be able to explain it adequately. Other asari may not have. If that were the case, Liara potentially could have.

Nor would you have been unable to turn and ask a human who would be an Asari-expert, and who's job would be to know such things.

I'd rather defer to an asari anthropologist than a human anthropologist on matters of being an asari. Both ideas have their merits.

The Migrant Fleet is de jure martial law, but de facto democratic. It isn't a military state, the military just holds (but almost never exercises) the right to overrule the civilian government.

It just seems to me that since the military is literally your neighbour, they might as well be the ones to teach you how to fight and survive if you're going to be learning to fight and survive. We're never told this is the case, but I'm making that inference based on what information we are given.

Not how it works. Military  and military personnel offers lots of training to people (self-defense, for example), but that doesn't make them military-qualified.

Maybe it's because I've never served, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Why would the military train somebody to do something differently than how the military does it?

Indeed. But simply because you feel you have doesn't mean you actually have. I am of the judgement you have not.

That is unfortunate, as I think we've both argued perfectly adequately. We just haven't convinced each other of the other's position.

Clan-based military doesn't mean standardized military training or a professional military. It's the difference between a soldier and a warrior.

It's never stated how professional or not the krogan military is. By the standards of their culture, though, combat and the ability to fight are taken extremely seriously. They fight in small, powerful strike teams just like turians and humans do. You're just arguing semantics here.

It doesn't say that they're trained along conventional military disciplines, however. Nor does that alleged professionalism and expertise ever really show itself... ever.

There are a lot of ways to make people good fighters short of inter-military common discipline.

It doesn't say turians are trained in disciplines we would consider "conventional," either, but since Mass Effect's combat is based on modern squad-based tactical warfare and espionage it can be infered that most dedicated fighting forces are fundamentally similar.

Tali isn't special forces. In one mission she's a recovery mission (no allegement of special forces or even innately military), and on another mission she was a science expert. In both cases, she did rather poorly, with a distinct air and implication of not being qualified for leadership. Tali is never identified as a Migrant Fleet Marine.

Moreover, this is in ME2, not ME1 (which we are discussing).

A fair point, to which I concede.

Because military survival training, 'how to deal with foreigners', and dedicated military training are entirely different things.

Covered above.

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 février 2011 - 05:53 .

[Wurf]

xedgorex wrote...

A lot of the council decision making is metagaming.

If you're IN a battle situation and your lives depend on it and you have the chance to save two things.

Once with the heads of state, and the other a highly capable war machine. And i did mention you're in a fight for your life right? It just makes MORE sense to save the ship that would help you win.

Saying that even if you save the council you kill Sovereign is metagaming. Idc if you save them, but you CAN NOT say that you still killed Sovereign as a reason. There is no realistic way for you to have known that in the moment. So either admit that in a battle situation it makes more sense to save the 5th fleet ship, or come up with another reason for saving the council.

Exactly, which is why I'm so displeased that choosing to save the Destiny Ascension actually results in fewer casualties than focusing on Sovereign. It seems to me like Bioware is painting the Renegade path as the "easy way out," which it absolutely shouldn't be.

Modifié par Wurf, 03 février 2011 - 05:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You could also radio her.

I could also turn to her and talk to her. Besides, to me radio'ing her in the middle of a conversation seems like calling her up on my cell phone. It would be rather rude, I think.

So is turning to talk to someone else in the middle of a conversation.

Is your solution to rudeness to be rude?

You ask Samara and the officer what they're talking about. They happened to be able to explain it adequately. Other asari may not have. If that were the case, Liara potentially could have.

Or potentially not: Liara is a prothean expert, not an Asari expert. By her own admission, she's socially stunted.

It just seems to me that since the military is literally your neighbour, they might as well be the ones to teach you how to fight and survive if you're going to be learning to fight and survive. We're never told this is the case, but I'm making that inference based on what information we are given.

You make a poor inference, since the common theme about most of Tali's stories about home is that it is not a military state, and the differences between being trained by the military to be military and being given lessons by military are, as they say, Legion.

Maybe it's because I've never served, but this just doesn't make sense to me. Why would the military train somebody to do something differently than how the military does it?

Lots of reasons, among them the same reason the military treats civilians differently than it treats its own soldiers. Different expectations, different roles, different needs.

Any claims Tali has to exceptional quality of training and military exposure come from her father's influence, not standard pilgramige preparation.

It's never stated how professional or not the krogan military is. By the standards of their culture, though, combat and the ability to fight are taken extremely seriously. They fight in small, powerful strike teams just like turians and humans do. You're just arguing semantics here.

Let's put it this way: we have seen professional, disciplined Human soldiers. We've seen unpressional, not-so-disciplined Human warriors.

While we have seen and heard Krogan attidues and warriors, we've never seen a disciplined, professional Krogan soldier. Even Wrex is extremely... not military-professional.

It doesn't say turians are trained in disciplines we would consider "conventional," either, but since Mass Effect's combat is based on modern squad-based tactical warfare and espionage it can be infered that most dedicated fighting forces are fundamentally similar.

Actually, it does. Quite frequently.

'Discipline' is one of the hallmarks of the Turian military, and the Heirarchy in general, and Garrus muses on it with Shepard a number of times.

[xedgorex]

As the first human spectre does it make any sense want so ever to present yourself as a xenophobic idiot?



You dont have to recruit Garrus or Wrex, so don't. Just stop complaining on that point.

But more to the main point, you're the FIRST HUMAN Spectre, if you refuse the help of all aliens and act very distrustful you're doing a greater disservice to humanity as a whole. The chances of them instating more human spectre's is pushed back more years.

[Xilizhra]

Wurf wrote...

xedgorex wrote...

A lot of the council decision making is metagaming.

If you're IN a battle situation and your lives depend on it and you have the chance to save two things.

Once with the heads of state, and the other a highly capable war machine. And i did mention you're in a fight for your life right? It just makes MORE sense to save the ship that would help you win.

Saying that even if you save the council you kill Sovereign is metagaming. Idc if you save them, but you CAN NOT say that you still killed Sovereign as a reason. There is no realistic way for you to have known that in the moment. So either admit that in a battle situation it makes more sense to save the 5th fleet ship, or come up with another reason for saving the council.

Exactly, which is why I'm so displeased that choosing to save the Destiny Ascension actually results in fewer casualties than focusing on Sovereign. It seems to me like Bioware is painting the Renegade path as the "easy way out," which it absolutely shouldn't be.

Isn't expediency one of the hallmarks of Renegadeness?

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Is your solution to rudeness to be rude?

Liara is already involved in the conversation if she's there with me talking to the person I'm talking to. Hence, not rude.

Or potentially not: Liara is a prothean expert, not an Asari expert. By her own admission, she's socially stunted.

Hence the qualifier "could."

You make a poor inference, since the common theme about most of Tali's stories about home is that it is not a military state, and the differences between being trained by the military to be military and being given lessons by military are, as they say, Legion.
Lots of reasons, among them the same reason the military treats civilians differently than it treats its own soldiers. Different expectations, different roles, different needs.

So we can agree that the training is military, but does not necessarily make Tali a soldier. That's fair. She serves quite adequately as an engineer squadmate in ME1, though.

Let's put it this way: we have seen professional, disciplined Human soldiers. We've seen unpressional, not-so-disciplined Human warriors.

While we have seen and heard Krogan attidues and warriors, we've never seen a disciplined, professional Krogan soldier. Even Wrex is extremely... not military-professional.

I think this is a case of those cultural barriers coming into play. The krogan are aliens. What we deem professional and what they deem professional are going to be different. As long as Wrex can follow orders from his squad leader, this strikes me as an asset rather than a liability.

Actually, it does. Quite frequently.

'Discipline' is one of the hallmarks of the Turian military, and the Heirarchy in general, and Garrus muses on it with Shepard a number of times.

But, as with krogan, their definition doesn't necessarily mesh with our own. Garrus doesn't salute you, he doesn't call you "sir." Is he as "unprofessional" as Wrex?

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 février 2011 - 06:11 .

[Dean_the_Young]

xedgorex wrote...

As the first human spectre does it make any sense want so ever to present yourself as a xenophobic idiot?

Defining 'wondering why we don't/can't have equivalent Alliance experts provided' as 'xenophobic idiot' is a poor, poor argument to make, Xed.

You dont have to recruit Garrus or Wrex, so don't. Just stop complaining on that point.

You do, however, have to recruit one or the other. You do not have an option for more Alliance specialists.

But more to the main point, you're the FIRST HUMAN Spectre, if you refuse the help of all aliens and act very distrustful you're doing a greater disservice to humanity as a whole.

And if you blindly accept anyone because they're alien, you're doing a similar disservice. And being racist.

The chances of them instating more human spectre's is pushed back more years.

If you fail your mission because you ended up not being able to work with the first aliens who asked to join you due to a lack of cohesion that could have been avoided by common military training, you'll push it back far more than that. Because, however politically correct you were, you failed.

On the other hand, the premise that not accepting random alien aid the Council didn't arrange or intend or offer you is going to decrease Humanity's position is based... well, I suppose the Turian politician does tear into you about Liara for something or another. Hm, what was his concern again...?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 03 février 2011 - 06:15 .