355 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

Since our "playing the hero" actually keeps galactic stability better than your... whatever it is you do, I think you have little ground to stand on.

How does curing the Genophage promote Galactic stability
How is saving 3 people more important than stopping Sovereign.
How is letting Balak who was going to destroy an entire planet free promote galactic stability
How does unleashing the Rachni upon the Galaxy promote galactic stability
How is destroying a huge technology cache that can help stop the Reapers promote galactic stability

Sure in ME2 the galaxy is more united because Bioware refused to punish Paragons in ME2
If you can stop Sovereign and save the council than it should promote more stability and that's if you metagame.

If Bioware is true to its word balancing out renegades and paragons, you paragons are in for a rude welcome in ME3

[didymos1120]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

That first one is what plays when you don't import from ME1 and just use the default starter. The second plays whether you picked "Concentrate on Sovereign" or "Let the Council die".

Huh.  What do you know? I'd never actually tested that on import, just the Save/Abandon options.  That's gotta be a bug.  "Abandoned Council" is being flagged, and it shouldn't be. 

[didymos1120]

jbblue05 wrote...

How does curing the Genophage promote Galactic stability

Good question, considering that can't actually be done.

[Xilizhra]

How does curing the Genophage promote Galactic stability

I don't cure it, I just destroy the data.

How is saving 3 people more important than stopping Sovereign.

It's 10,000 people, not three, and I thought I could save them all alongside stopping Sovereign. Which I could.

How is letting Balak who was going to destroy an entire planet free promote galactic stability

He's defanged and known now. Not a peep has come out of him in the last two years.

How does unleashing the Rachni upon the Galaxy promote galactic stability

I lacked a compelling reason to believe they were a threat. So far, they've proven not to be.

How is destroying a huge technology cache that can help stop the Reapers promote galactic stability

Cerberus is an enemy of galactic stability; to allow it any power could result in a war between it and the Council at the worst possible time. Plus all the other possible dangers from the base.

If Bioware is true to its word balancing out renegades and paragons, you paragons are in for a rude welcome in ME3

We each succeeded in exactly what we set out to do. The Renegades only want to get the job done, and so they get only the job done. Paragons aim for more, and thus get it. All of us are satisfied.

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't cure it, I just destroy the data.

smart choice

It's 10,000 people, not three, and I thought I could save them all alongside stopping Sovereign. Which I could.

The more important fact is trillions of lives hang in the balance if you don't stop Sovereign.  Soverein destroyed everything in its path its idiotic to weaken the 5th fleet to save THREE PEOPlE not 10,000, the 10,000 was a bonus to make you feel good 

He's defanged and known now. Not a peep has come out of him in the last two years.

How is he defanged?  Its been 2 years he could be planning something even bigger.  Its Beyond idiotic to let someone who was going to destroy an entire planet go to rescue THREE PEOPLE.
Bioware doesn't wish to punish Paragons.................yet

I lacked a compelling reason to believe they were a threat. So far, they've proven not to be.

Rachni wars.  The Rachni alone took on the Council and were beating them.
Bioware hasn't punished you paragons yet.

Cerberus is an enemy of galactic stability; to allow it any power could result in a war between it and the Council at the worst possible time. Plus all the other possible dangers from the base.

Because you think so.  Cerberus has never attacked the Council the Rachni have.  Why would Cerberus and its 150 people go to war with the Council.   The Council will do anything to get their hands on a working prothean beacon and the CB is easily worth a thousand prothean beacons.

We each succeeded in exactly what we set out to do. The Renegades only want to get the job done, and so they get only the job done. Paragons aim for more, and thus get it. All of us are satisfied.

True.
I'm mad that paragons get exclusives while renegades get nothing.

[TheBlackBaron]

didymos1120 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

That first one is what plays when you don't import from ME1 and just use the default starter. The second plays whether you picked "Concentrate on Sovereign" or "Let the Council die".

Huh.  What do you know? I'd never actually tested that on import, just the Save/Abandon options.  That's gotta be a bug.  "Abandoned Council" is being flagged, and it shouldn't be. 

Well, it's possible I might not have the whole picture. I've kind of junked my old Vanguard, who was a Paragon and chose Concentrate on Sovereign, and so have never imported that one. Whereas the other games I've imported where I chose Concentrate on Sovereign were all done with Renegades. 

So maybe Renegade+Council dead=the latter slide, no matter what? 

[Iwillbeback]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

That first one is what plays when you don't import from ME1 and just use the default starter. The second plays whether you picked "Concentrate on Sovereign" or "Let the Council die".

Huh.  What do you know? I'd never actually tested that on import, just the Save/Abandon options.  That's gotta be a bug.  "Abandoned Council" is being flagged, and it shouldn't be. 

Well, it's possible I might not have the whole picture. I've kind of junked my old Vanguard, who was a Paragon and chose Concentrate on Sovereign, and so have never imported that one. Whereas the other games I've imported where I chose Concentrate on Sovereign were all done with Renegades. 

So maybe Renegade+Council dead=the latter slide, no matter what? 

You can still do it with the vanguard again unless you deleted the character.

[Wulfram]

jbblue05 wrote...

How does curing the Genophage promote Galactic stability

The current situation is incredibly dangerous.  If someone like Saren or Weyrloc Guld cure the Genophage, everyone's screwed.  Better to fix it while the Krogan have got a relatively sane leader like Wrex.  Or wipe the Krogan out once and for all, if you've got the stomach for genocide.

[Iwillbeback]

jbblue05 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't cure it, I just destroy the data.

smart choice

It's 10,000 people, not three, and I thought I could save them all alongside stopping Sovereign. Which I could.

The more important fact is trillions of lives hang in the balance if you don't stop Sovereign.  Soverein destroyed everything in its path its idiotic to weaken the 5th fleet to save THREE PEOPlE not 10,000, the 10,000 was a bonus to make you feel good 

He's defanged and known now. Not a peep has come out of him in the last two years.

How is he defanged?  Its been 2 years he could be planning something even bigger.  Its Beyond idiotic to let someone who was going to destroy an entire planet go to rescue THREE PEOPLE.
Bioware doesn't wish to punish Paragons.................yet

I lacked a compelling reason to believe they were a threat. So far, they've proven not to be.

Rachni wars.  The Rachni alone took on the Council and were beating them.
Bioware hasn't punished you paragons yet.

Cerberus is an enemy of galactic stability; to allow it any power could result in a war between it and the Council at the worst possible time. Plus all the other possible dangers from the base.

Because you think so.  Cerberus has never attacked the Council the Rachni have.  Why would Cerberus and its 150 people go to war with the Council.   The Council will do anything to get their hands on a working prothean beacon and the CB is easily worth a thousand prothean beacons.

We each succeeded in exactly what we set out to do. The Renegades only want to get the job done, and so they get only the job done. Paragons aim for more, and thus get it. All of us are satisfied.

True.
I'm mad that paragons get exclusives while renegades get nothing.

Lol that is a guide of how to kill all sentient life in the galaxy.

[jbblue05]

Wulfram wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

How does curing the Genophage promote Galactic stability

The current situation is incredibly dangerous.  If someone like Saren or Weyrloc Guld cure the Genophage, everyone's screwed.  Better to fix it while the Krogan have got a relatively sane leader like Wrex.  Or wipe the Krogan out once and for all, if you've got the stomach for genocide.

Curing the genophage will destroy all the good Wrex is trying to do.
Wrex is using females as a way to unite the clans.
If all females are fertile Wrex's progress is all for nothing because every  clan has fertile females.

[HdS84]

Most rengade options simply suck in the long run:

Yes of course, you can kill the council, the rachni queen and so on.

But ultimately it's stupid simply because this not only a "one round" game but there are many rounds to come.

Do you really think the turians would accept a pure human council in the long run? They have more ships, a more powerful industry and much more people -> pissing them off is a BAD idea.



Most renegade options are not "realistic" but rude, selfish and aim for short time gain. You are feeling lonely after the end of the story? Maybe that's because no one likes you.



Most paragon options are in favor of law, morality and long-term gain. So they'Re feeling not so lonely at the end of the game.



The biggest problem is that bioware fails to offer good options for both types. Why is ist "renegade" to kill the eclipse soldiers on mirandas loyality mission?. That should be a "neutral" interrupt.

There should be more real CHOICES between "selifsh" and "greater good". Like the end of overlord.

[TheBlackBaron]

HdS84 wrote...
Most paragon options are in favor of law, morality and long-term gain. So they'Re feeling not so lonely at the end of the game.

Correction: most paragon options are incredibly short-sighted and focus on what immediately feels good, instead of giving a thought to the long-term consequences. 

That they ALL work out perfectly with no downside is an issue of game design. 

[FDB93]

HdS84 wrote...

Most rengade options simply suck in the long run:
Yes of course, you can kill the council, the rachni queen and so on.
But ultimately it's stupid simply because this not only a "one round" game but there are many rounds to come.
Do you really think the turians would accept a pure human council in the long run? They have more ships, a more powerful industry and much more people -> pissing them off is a BAD idea.

Most renegade options are not "realistic" but rude, selfish and aim for short time gain. You are feeling lonely after the end of the story? Maybe that's because no one likes you.

Most paragon options are in favor of law, morality and long-term gain. So they'Re feeling not so lonely at the end of the game.

The biggest problem is that bioware fails to offer good options for both types. Why is ist "renegade" to kill the eclipse soldiers on mirandas loyality mission?. That should be a "neutral" interrupt.
There should be more real CHOICES between "selifsh" and "greater good". Like the end of overlord.

This 

[Xilizhra]

[qutoe]smart choice[/quote]

Did I say destroy? I meant "don't destroy."

[quote]The more important fact is trillions of lives hang in the balance if you don't stop Sovereign. Soverein destroyed everything in its path its idiotic to weaken the 5th fleet to save THREE PEOPlE not 10,000, the 10,000 was a bonus to make you feel good [/quote]

I cared about the DA's crew as well, not just the Council. And again, I didn't think it'd be a significant setback.

[quote]Rachni wars. The Rachni alone took on the Council and were beating them.

Bioware hasn't punished you paragons yet.[/quote]

They didn't have turians back then. Plus, the rachni were indoctrinated.

[quote]The Council will do anything to get their hands on a working prothean beacon and the CB is easily worth a thousand prothean beacons.[/quote]

One reason why I think a war might start over it.

[quote]I'm mad that paragons get exclusives while renegades get nothing.[/quote]

Then ask for more content for you and enjoy it. I couldn't care less. Just don't try to punish us.

[Asheer_Khan]

I'm mad that paragons get exclusives while renegades get nothing.

Like was saying in couple other threads... DEAD people don't make cameos in next game... unless they are necromanced, turned in husks or zombies... which in most cases will have again bad ending for them anyway.

[jbblue05]

HdS84 wrote...

Most rengade options simply suck in the long run:
Yes of course, you can kill the council, the rachni queen and so on.
But ultimately it's stupid simply because this not only a "one round" game but there are many rounds to come.
Do you really think the turians would accept a pure human council in the long run? They have more ships, a more powerful industry and much more people -> pissing them off is a BAD idea.

Most renegade options are not "realistic" but rude, selfish and aim for short time gain. You are feeling lonely after the end of the story? Maybe that's because no one likes you.

Most paragon options are in favor of law, morality and long-term gain. So they'Re feeling not so lonely at the end of the game.

The biggest problem is that bioware fails to offer good options for both types. Why is ist "renegade" to kill the eclipse soldiers on mirandas loyality mission?. That should be a "neutral" interrupt.
There should be more real CHOICES between "selifsh" and "greater good". Like the end of overlord.

your logic is flawed
Paragons are more short-sighted and look for glory
Renegades promote long-term stability

Their is no all-huma council.

How do paragons favor law?  They are more about doing personal favors for their friends.  Giving Tali the Geth data, letting Garrus and Wrex on Normandy SR1, making ANderson the COuncil,  freeing the Rachni and not letting the Council  decide.

Renegades aren't rude we just aren't as nice as paragons. We have a galaxy to save we don't have time to scan keepers.

Shepard is the most selfless person in the galaxy whether renegade or paragon. 

[jbblue05]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I'm mad that paragons get exclusives while renegades get nothing.

Like was saying in couple other threads... DEAD people don't make cameos in next game... unless they are necromanced, turned in husks or zombies... which in most cases will have again bad ending for them anyway.

no crap
but the people on Nos Astra aren't the only NPC's you met in ME1.

[Asheer_Khan]

jbblue05 wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

I'm mad that paragons get exclusives while renegades get nothing.

Like was saying in couple other threads... DEAD people don't make cameos in next game... unless they are necromanced, turned in husks or zombies... which in most cases will have again bad ending for them anyway.

no crap
but the people on Nos Astra aren't the only NPC's you met in ME1.

Keeping out Wrex and (absolute illogical from my point of view) appearance of Rana during Okeer's mission from that list another place is Omega (Fist and Hellena Blake in lower part of Afterlife) and that's all.

I can hardly count that snake Harkin as extra bonus since he get out alive in ME 1 regardless of Shep's aligment.<_<

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

Did I say destroy? I meant "don't destroy."

I guess its better than sending Mordin on a guil trip to cure the genophage

I cared about the DA's crew as well, not just the Council. And again, I didn't think it'd be a significant setback.

You've neverr been on the DA so you have no connection.  Are you saying the lives of the crew on the DA is more important than the live of humans on the 5th fleet?
I don't understand how you can't see it as a setback. Most of the Council fleets were destroyed.  But I guess you're more of an optimist than me

They didn't have turians back then. Plus, the rachni were indoctrinated.

I never sayed the turians were on the Council back then.  THe Rachni queen can't be trusted she wants you to believe you made the right choice. I don't buy the Rachni were innocent victims.  Remember the Rachni are HIGHLY TERRITORIAL
I believe the Rachni were indoctrinated when the Krogans were winning the war.

One reason why I think a war might start over it.

Or It could stop the Reapers. The Reapers ARE the biggest threat to galactic stability 

Then ask for more content for you and enjoy it. I couldn't care less. Just don't try to punish us.

Being a paragon would be no fun if everything you did turn out badly.  Its unbelieveable Paragons can be naive and too trusting and everything works out perfectly.

I have no problems with somethings turning out okay with Paragons

[Xilizhra]

I guess its better than sending Mordin on a guil trip to cure the genophage

Mordin has his own opinion and won't leave it regardless of how anyone pushes him.

You've neverr been on the DA so you have no connection. Are you saying the lives of the crew on the DA is more important than the live of humans on the 5th fleet?

10,000 saved compared to 2,400 humans who died. I'd say that that trade, while tragic, is fair.

I believe the Rachni were indoctrinated when the Krogans were winning the war.

Based on what evidence? What good would it do to indoctrinate a dying race?

Or It could stop the Reapers. The Reapers ARE the biggest threat to galactic stability

Maybe. I suppose we'll see.

Being a paragon would be no fun if everything you did turn out badly. Its unbelieveable Paragons can be naive and too trusting and everything works out perfectly.

Personally, I think that the odds of us getting everything right by chance are too low to take seriously. We simply make good decisions.

I have no problems with somethings turning out okay with Paragons

Then why do you talk about punishment?

[Wulfram]

jbblue05 wrote...

Curing the genophage will destroy all the good Wrex is trying to do.
Wrex is using females as a way to unite the clans.
If all females are fertile Wrex's progress is all for nothing because every  clan has fertile females.

Mordin isn't going to be releasing the cure recklessly, if he finds one.

[jbblue05]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Keeping out Wrex and (absolute illogical from my point of view) appearance of Rana during Okeer's mission from that list another place is Omega (Fist and Hellena Blake in lower part of Afterlife) and that's all.

I can hardly count that snake Harkin as extra bonus since he get out alive in ME 1 regardless of Shep's aligment.<_<

Recruiting Tali, Wrex, and Garrus in ME1 is illogical but Bioware needed fan service.

I don't care about minor NPC's.

Their should have been an alternate to the Rachni Queen.
Their should've been Lizbeth Banyham replacing Shiala not a generic colonist

Lorik could've replaced Parasini . 

Bioware is just favoring the paragon decision

[AkiKishi]

You could either say the Paragon outlook is "shortsighted" or more appropriately they give the benifit of the doubt.



In the case of the Rachni that queen had appeared to have realised what the previous Rachni did wrong. Therefore there was no reason to kill her. The renegade option in such cases is fear, fear of what "might" happen in the future.



The Geth might turn on you if you re-write them. Or they may become allies. The Krogan may go on a total rampage once you cure the genophage or they might go off to the Terminus systems or even dark space looking for more worthy things to fight.



You could say renegades play it safe while paragons take risks. But wiping out anything that might cause you harm at some point is in itself short sighted as you kill potential allies as well as enemies.

[Jabarai]

jbblue05 wrote...
your logic is flawed
Paragons are more short-sighted and look for glory
Renegades promote long-term stability

I would argue that perhaps one out of twenty renegade decisions does indeed promote long-term stability. Most of them are purely stupid and unjustified (apart from the fact that they provide meta-roleplayers with evil-points).

How do paragons favor law?  They are more about doing personal favors for their friends.  Giving Tali the Geth data, letting Garrus and Wrex on Normandy SR1, making ANderson the COuncil,  freeing the Rachni and not letting the Council  decide.

While paragons don't always follow the law, they're very much closer to it than renegades. You can't argue that.

[jbblue05]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mordin has his own opinion and won't leave it regardless of how anyone pushes him.

Like I said Shepard tries to make Mordin feel guilty to cure the Genophage

10,000 saved compared to 2,400 humans who died. I'd say that that trade, while tragic, is fair.

Metagaming.  Trillions of lives are more important than 10,003 lives

Based on what evidence? What good would it do to indoctrinate a dying race?

Exactly their is no evidence only Sovereign knows everything is speculation.form the Rachni Queen
Prior to the Genophage the Krogans were the chosen race for 'asecnsion'.  Svereign  was using the rachni as a tool to test the other races strength. 

Being a paragon would be no fun if everything you did turn out badly. Its unbelieveable Paragons can be naive and too trusting and everything works out perfectly.

Personally, I think that the odds of us getting everything right by chance are too low to take seriously. We simply make good decisions.

I think 'good' decisions is not the right word.  I'm thinking 'morally correct' decisions

Then why do you talk about punishment?

Some of the choices Paragons make are