355 réponses à ce sujet

[jbblue05]

Dirty_Dan wrote...

2 things, 1) these all came about right when you met them or are facts about their culture. 2) If he wouldnt bring them along, then why did he bring them along?

1) They don't tell you first-hand.
2) Because Bioware said so and its their story

[Sentox6]

jbblue05 wrote...
It makes no sense to recruit people off the streets when you can take full of advantage of the Alliance.

While Shepard has Alliance resources (the co-developed ME1 and the original crew) which were turned over as a show of support for the first human Spectre, he/she falls outside of the Alliance chain of command. Shepard can't necessarily just waltz in to the nearest Alliance base and pick up a few spare N7 marines for fire support.

[Dirty_Dan]

jbblue05 wrote...

Dirty_Dan wrote...

2 things, 1) these all came about right when you met them or are facts about their culture. 2) If he wouldnt bring them along, then why did he bring them along?

1) They don't tell you first-hand.
2) Because Bioware said so and its their story

1) They show you first hand
2) True, but there is still reason to have them according to the story

[jbblue05]

Sentox6 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
It makes no sense to recruit people off the streets when you can take full of advantage of the Alliance.

While Shepard has Alliance resources (the co-developed ME1 and the original crew) which were turned over as a show of support for the first human Spectre, he/she falls outside of the Alliance chain of command. Shepard can't necessarily just waltz in to the nearest Alliance base and pick up a few spare N7 marines for fire support.

I'm sure Shepard can get any  N7 marine he wants in the Alliance.
Shepard is the most important figure on the Alliance they wiill do anything to make sure the first human spectre would succeed..

Shepard is on loan to the Council but SHepard spent the last 12 years in the Alliance

[Schneidend]

jbblue05 wrote...
You really think an N7 marine like SHepard would rather have a teenage quarian on pilgrimage,  a Krogan mercenary, or turian C-sec officer than an N7 marine or a fellow spectre?

If I were in Shepard's shoes (and I am when I play the game) I would recognize that my N7 training doesn't really cover interacting with criminal contacts (Wrex/Garrus), investigating crimes (Garrus), or learning about Prothean artifacts (Liara), and that I may need some specialized help from aliens who do know how to do these things.

Also, a couple things:

1) Tali is 22 at the time of Mass Effect 1.

2) A "fellow Spectre" would be an alien with "different training," since I'm the only human Spectre in the entire galaxy.

[Sentox6]

jbblue05 wrote...
I'm sure Shepard can get any  N7 marine he wants in the Alliance.
Shepard is the most important figure on the Alliance they wiill do anything to make sure the first human spectre would succeed..

Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander, for a start. He/she can't just co-opt personnel at will.

Secondly, from the perspective of the Alliance, why does Shepard even need help? He/she is chasing the ghost of rogue Spectre around the galaxy. There's not really much potential to advance human interests here; I doubt Alliance brass are going to donate some elite Marines for the hell of it. Shepard already has the Normandy, an Alliance crew, and several Alliance soldiers.

I'm just saying, I think there are much bigger plot issues in Mass Effect than Shepard picking up a few random aliens because they might be useful.

To be fair though, do I really see a military commander taking someone like Wrex or Tali onboard? Hell no. With Liara there's no choice, while Garrus is both capable and fairly trustworthy.

Modifié par Sentox6, 02 février 2011 - 03:50 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Renegades did get cheated unless they allow Shepard to win with less resources (making him more of a BA than Paragons).



If you killed someone, you could've gotten a darker replacement or something along those lines.

[TheBlackBaron]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Renegades did get cheated unless they allow Shepard to win with less resources (making him more of a BA than Paragons).

If you killed someone, you could've gotten a darker replacement or something along those lines.

I like to imagine that, in ME3, both Renegades and Paragons defeat the Reapers, but Paragons do so by having to essentially throw allied forces, especially the krogan/rachni/geth, en masse at the problem. 

Meanwhile Renegades, forced to rely upon their captured and reverse-engineered technology instead of numbers, take home the win with far fewer casualties. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 02 février 2011 - 04:00 .

[jbblue05]

Sentox6 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
I'm sure Shepard can get any  N7 marine he wants in the Alliance.
Shepard is the most important figure on the Alliance they wiill do anything to make sure the first human spectre would succeed..

Shepard is a Lieutenant Commander, for a start. He/she can't just co-opt personnel at will.

Secondly, from the perspective of the Alliance, why does Shepard even need help? He/she is chasing the ghost of rogue Spectre around the galaxy. There's not really much potential to advance human interests here; I doubt Alliance brass are going to donate some elite Marines for the hell of it. Shepard already has the Normandy, an Alliance crew, and several Alliance soldiers.

I'm just saying, I think there are much bigger plot issues in Mass Effect than Shepard picking up a few random aliens because they might be useful.

To be fair though, do I really see a military commander taking someone like Wrex or Tali onboard? Hell no. With Liara there's no choice, while Garrus is both capable and fairly trustworthy.

The Alliance wants Shepard to succeed.that's why he was given the Normandy If Shepard requested N7 marines. The Alliance will give them to Shepard.
Shepard's success is critical to the advancement of the Alliance.
.
Garrus is a member of a rival species and is just a regular turian C-sec grunt.

I just wish their was an option to not recruit Garrus Wrex and Tali.
I was so mad when Ash and Mikhalovich confronted me about aliens on the Normandy and all my SHepard could say is "I am under orders"

[Schneidend]

Well you can, in fact, not recruit Garrus or Wrex.



Regardless, you haven't refuted my point that these alien characters have skills an N7 marine simply does not, such as taking advantage of criminal contacts.



Further, there's nothing regular about Garrus at all. All turians have military combat training, Garrus has specialized training as a marksman and CQC expert, C-Sec training for dealing with criminals and investigating crimes, as well as special training he received as a Spectre candidate.

[didymos1120]

jbblue05 wrote...

Garrus is a member of a rival species...

Yes, the rival species which collaborated on the Normandy design. 

[jbblue05]

Schneidend wrote...

Well you can, in fact, not recruit Garrus or Wrex.

Regardless, you haven't refuted my point that these alien characters have skills an N7 marine simply does not, such as taking advantage of criminal contacts.

Further, there's nothing regular about Garrus at all. All turians have military combat training, Garrus has specialized training as a marksman and CQC expert, C-Sec training for dealing with criminals and investigating crimes, as well as special training he received as a Spectre candidate.

Just because SHepard is an N7 marine doesn't mean he/she has skills deal with criminals.  PLus just because Garrus and Tali can help you doesn't mean you have to recruit them on your team.
Garrus is a regular Turian C-sec officer who is lucky enough to get an audience with Shepard.  Garrus has different combat training to Shepard too risky.
A lott of turian soldiers are considered for spectre status Garrus tells you himself.
Justifying Garrus's combat training is metagaming and doesn't give a good reason to recruit before all this info becomes available

[jbblue05]

didymos1120 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...

Garrus is a member of a rival species...

Yes, the rival species which collaborated on the Normandy design. 

The Alliance could've made altercations and upgrades to the Normandy.
Its still an Alliance warship which is a big red-flag to recruiting Garrus

[Schneidend]

jbblue05 wrote...

Just because SHepard is an N7 marine doesn't mean he/she has skills deal with criminals.

You don't train marines to investigate crime scenes or negotiate with informants and criminal contacts. You train marines to fight other soldiers.

PLus just because Garrus and Tali can help you doesn't mean you have to recruit them on your team.

No, but considering they're both good at what they do and Shepard witnesses this firsthand, it does mean there's plenty of reason to recruit them.

Garrus is a regular Turian C-sec officer who is lucky enough to get an audience with Shepard.  Garrus has different combat training to Shepard too risky.

You keep saying this, but that doesn't stop real life PMC Blackwater from hiring people with a variety of different military backgrounds. Combat training is combat training is combat training. As long as they follow Shepard's orders, they can be  a deadly fighting force.

A lott of turian soldiers are considered for spectre status Garrus tells you himself.

He was in a training with 1000 other candidates. There are a lot more than 1000 turian soldiers in the galaxy. He's part of the elite, the cream of the crop.

Justifying Garrus's combat training is metagaming and doesn't give a good reason to recruit before all this info becomes available

You hear about Garrus tracking down a lead like a good cop should and then you personally witness him save a hostage with a skilled shot. The game establishes his abilities during the quest to recruit him.

[Sentox6]

jbblue05 wrote...
The Alliance wants Shepard to succeed.that's why he was given the Normandy If Shepard requested N7 marines. The Alliance will give them to Shepard.
Shepard's success is critical to the advancement of the Alliance.
.
Garrus is a member of a rival species and is just a regular turian C-sec grunt.

I'm starting to realise your arguing style is simply to ignore everything anyone says and restate your original points verbatim

[seanna vampyr]

just sad... wow

[CaptainZaysh]

Xilizhra wrote...
Personally, I think that the odds of (Paragons) getting everything right by chance are too low to take seriously. We simply make good decisions.

That's the whole point of this thread, Xili.  All Paragon decisions (except a minor one on Nos Astra) turn out to be the optimal ones.  If a percentage of them backfired - if, some of the time, the reckless chances you took (like delaying the attack on Sovereign) actually proved to be a bad call - then your smugness about your superior decision making skills might be justified.

As it is, Mass Effect's "hard decisions" are illusory, since if you Choose Blue you will always have made the best decision.  Free the terrorist or save the hostages?  God, that's a tough decision.  Well, unless you Choose Blue, in which case you save the hostages and the terrorist never commits another atrocity.  Etc etc.  Paragon is an I Win button and patting yourself on the back for using it is ridiculous.

As for how to fix it, I actually don't think that Paragons should be punished for making the "wrong" choices.  Just because I think it's incredibly naive and reckless to repopulate the genocidal bug race to its former lethal glory doesn't mean that Bioware should punish you for reaching a different conclusion.  But it would be nice if some Paragon decisions came with a higher body count.  For instance: saving the Destiny Ascension could have cost more than 10,000 lives somehow (either in the battle or because there are too few warships post-battle to prevent Terminus incursions).  Releasing Balak could have resulted in subsequent acts of terror.  The rachni could be rebuilding without invading but could also be violently territorial, with hundreds of ships going missing in their new region.  That way there'd be some upside to the Renegade choices, too.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 02 février 2011 - 12:55 .

[PsychoWARD23]

Crusade wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Paragons have more content because they kill fewer people. Simple.

How is it my fault bioware made all the renegade choices result in people dieing.

R-E-N-E-G-A-D-E

[jbblue05]

Schneidend wrote...

[You don't train marines to investigate crime scenes or negotiate with informants and criminal contacts. You train marines to fight other soldiers.

Shepard isn't a normal  marine

No, but considering they're both good at what they do and Shepard witnesses this firsthand, it does mean there's plenty of reason to recruit them.

You might as well recruit every soldier that survived Eden Prime.  Because the people on Eden Prime actually fought Geth one of your biggest enemies.

You keep saying this, but that doesn't stop real life PMC Blackwater from hiring people with a variety of different military backgrounds. Combat training is combat training is combat training. As long as they follow Shepard's orders, they can be  a deadly fighting force.

Its generally a bad idea to bring an unknown with you when you have the luxury of people who have the same training as you.
I guess your a person who sees nothing wrong with getting people off the streets

He was in a training with 1000 other candidates. There are a lot more than 1000 turian soldiers in the galaxy. He's part of the elite, the cream of the crop.

Metagaming I'm talking about before you meet Garrus.  Their is no doubt in my mind that Garrus shouldd've been a spectre based off what he did in ME2

You hear about Garrus tracking down a lead like a good cop should and then you personally witness him save a hostage with a skilled shot. The game establishes his abilities during the quest to recruit him.

Garrus was doing his job like he's suppose to.
I'm sure other C-sec grunts have saved a hostage too.
How is shooting a distracted thug makes Garrus look like a badass soldier that you have to recruit
If anything ME2 makes Garrus look like a total badass

[Whatever42]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Personally, I think that the odds of (Paragons) getting everything right by chance are too low to take seriously. We simply make good decisions.

That's the whole point of this thread, Xili.  All Paragon decisions (except a minor one on Nos Astra) turn out to be the optimal ones.  If a percentage of them backfired - if, some of the time, the reckless chances you took (like delaying the attack on Sovereign) actually proved to be a bad call - then your smugness about your superior decision making skills might be justified.

As it is, Mass Effect's "hard decisions" are illusory, since if you Choose Blue you will always have made the best decision.  Free the terrorist or save the hostages?  God, that's a tough decision.  Well, unless you Choose Blue, in which case you save the hostages and the terrorist never commits another atrocity.  Etc etc.  Paragon is an I Win button and patting yourself on the back for using it is ridiculous.

As for how to fix it, I actually don't think that Paragons should be punished for making the "wrong" choices.  Just because I think it's incredibly naive and reckless to repopulate the genocidal bug race to its former lethal glory doesn't mean that Bioware should punish you for reaching a different conclusion.  But it would be nice if some Paragon decisions came with a higher body count.  For instance: saving the Destiny Ascension could have cost more than 10,000 lives somehow (either in the battle or because there are too few warships post-battle to prevent Terminus incursions).  Releasing Balak could have resulted in subsequent acts of terror.  The rachni could be rebuilding without invading but could also be violently territorial, with hundreds of ships going missing in their new region.  That way there'd be some upside to the Renegade choices, too.

Rengade doesn't make choices to reduce body counts. Renegade makes choices because they are efficient and expedient, and well, frankly because renegade can be nasty. Renegade by its very nature leads to a higher body count. It's the dark side.

Perhaps by saving the Rachni, the allied races in ME3 defeat the Reapers and the galactic community comes out whole and strong. By not saving the Rachni, the Turian fleet gets the living crap beaten out of it and the international community falls into chaos after the defeating the Reapers and humanity rises to dominate.

I agree that there should be some nasty surprises for goody-goody paragon. Perhaps by letting Vito go, he comes back and shoots Shepard's dog. Or by saving the genophage cure, the Krogan repopulate and start a new rebellion. But for the most part, while the renegades will win just as the paragons, they will end up in a darker universe.

[Sidney]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Renegades did get cheated unless they allow Shepard to win with less resources (making him more of a BA than Paragons).

If you killed someone, you could've gotten a darker replacement or something along those lines.

I like to imagine that, in ME3, both Renegades and Paragons defeat the Reapers, but Paragons do so by having to essentially throw allied forces, especially the krogan/rachni/geth, en masse at the problem. 

Meanwhile Renegades, forced to rely upon their captured and reverse-engineered technology instead of numbers, take home the win with far fewer casualties. 

Something like this. The paragons have built up more "allies" than Renegades have and if things like the rachni don't come into play it would stink but even worse would be if they ALWAYS come into play and it doesn't matter that I finished the species off in part 1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
You really think an N7 marine like SHepard would rather have a teenage quarian on pilgrimage,  a Krogan mercenary, or turian C-sec officer than an N7 marine or a fellow spectre?

If I were in Shepard's shoes (and I am when I play the game) I would recognize that my N7 training doesn't really cover interacting with criminal contacts (Wrex),

So... sort of what the realm of military intelligence/CIA analogue is supposed to handle and be familiar with, then?

Shepard may not specialize in everything, but that certainly doesn't mean no N7 specializes in them.

investigating crimes (Garrus),

Military police?

or learning about Prothean artifacts (Liara),

This is the most relevant character... but not on the point that the Alliance doesn't have its own prothean experts it can attach, but more because of Liara's unique pseudo-scientific Asari-bullship mind-melding.

As a fire team member, Liara's prothean expertise was never critical in the least.

and that I may need some specialized help from aliens who do know how to do these things.

Besides Liara's brain-melding plot contrivance, what specialized skills do the aliens have that no human providable by the Alliance could?

Also, a couple things:

1) Tali is 22 at the time of Mass Effect 1.

Besides the whole 'aliens mature at different rates', Tali identifies herself as her pilgramige being a rite of adulthood. That, along with her otherwise inexperience, make the 'teenager' tagline socially, if not chronologically, reasonable.

Sort of how like just because Liara's 100 doesn't mean she's not barely out of Asari childhood equivalence.

2) A "fellow Spectre" would be an alien with "different training," since I'm the only human Spectre in the entire galaxy.

But military training is still military training, and for a number of reasons military-to-military compatibility is much more feasible and easier to adapt than military-to-civilian or military-to-hired-thug.

[xRAYZ0Rx]

I was full paragon the whole game, but when it came to the choice between Miranda and Jack in their argument, it wouldnt let me Paragon the two, it ended up with Jack being killed in the suicide mission. no matter what I did. =[

[Sidney]

xRAYZ0Rx wrote...

I was full paragon the whole game, but when it came to the choice between Miranda and Jack in their argument, it wouldnt let me Paragon the two, it ended up with Jack being killed in the suicide mission. no matter what I did. =[

I think it matters how fast you level up your class powers that "accelerate" the paragon/renegade points. If you lollygag on that and level up your powers first no matter how red/blue you go you won't earn enough points.

[AkiKishi]

xRAYZ0Rx wrote...

I was full paragon the whole game, but when it came to the choice between Miranda and Jack in their argument, it wouldnt let me Paragon the two, it ended up with Jack being killed in the suicide mission. no matter what I did. =[

A handy tip is that you can re-spec to the 100% paragon/renegade profession which can help a lot with that. Then you visit whoever you annoyed where they hang out and grovel a bit.