976 réponses à ce sujet

[MrCrabby]

Putting a smiley after posting a Draconian DRM like this is like thanking someone after violently raping them in an alley.

Not only am I not buying this product now, but I also will not buy Mass Effect 3 or the Old Republic. I have just plain had enough of this crap.

To those of you saying you will buy the game after saying you hate this DRM, you deserve this kind of treatment because you refuse to vote with your dollars. Buying a steam or console version instead of the PC version is not voting with your money. Either way you are rewarding the company.

Chris Priestly wrote...

Hi everyone

Recently there has been some concern over the DRM (Digital Rights Management) included with Dragon Age 2. Hopefully this post will help clarify what the DRM is for all versions of Dragon Age 2.

Steam versions use Steam DRM, no other DRM is added.

Non-Steam versions (digital or retail disc) are as follows:
- No disc check, you do not need the disc in drive to play.
- No limit on the total number of PCs you can install and play the game on.
- There is a limit to the number of unique/different PCs that can start/play the game within a time window [5 PCs in 24hrs].
- Each install requires logging in to your EA account to verify game ownership and if you are a member of these forums, you have an EA account.
- You can play offline but the game will require a login check after a select period of days.

Release Control (does not use securom)
      . It does not install anything to the PC.
      . Sole purpose is to check with a server to validate whether the game release date has passed or not. 
      . It completely removes itself after the game release date has passed. 
      . You will not be able to play until that date has passed.
      . Dates & times are set to the retail street date per country.

Hopefully this explains the DRM included in Dragon Age 2.

If you still have questions, please ask them here. However, this thread is NOT for the general discussion of DRM, the pros and cons of other DRM systems or any talk about circumventing DRM (which is against the rules of conduct and will be diciplined as such). Thanks.

Modifié par MrCrabby, 02 février 2011 - 03:41 .

[coolide]

Lyssistr wrote...

coolide wrote...

If you guys don't accept DRM, then I can see computer games going extinct and them being exclusively made for consoles. There is just no way they can justify making games for an unprofitable system. If you want computer gaming to die, then keep on complaining about their efforts to reduce piracy and boycotting their products.

Well tbh, even though I'm not a big fan, playing on a console is better than installing that **** on your computer.

Oh my god.  Give it a rest.  You guys are acting like a bunch of hillbillies who are fighting gun restrictions.

[tishyw]

Xolramuh wrote...

StingingVelvet wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

This type of DRM does encourage piracy. Or it at least encourages people to start using cracks, even if they purchase the game itself. Why not something like, well, a disk check and then if there is no disk, then require the online authentication every few days? This would make both the people who hate disk checks happy, and the ones who don't have stable internet or who travel a lot happy as well.

for people who compare it with outdated hardware -- that's not the same thing at all. Internet access is not required to play a single player game, and furthermore, not having internet access does not diminish the game (as would building a game that would run on a 10 year old system would).

There will be cracked and pirated copies available the day after the game is released, if not sooner. And if a middle aged housewife like me knows where they will be, then EVERYONE does. Making the game hard to almost impossible to play because of restrictive DRM in the legal copies for many people is a mistake.

Edit: While I am definitely not against DRM, I think a one-time authentication is plenty.  Allow it on a limited number of machines (even if that limited number is 1 or 2), and then if you want to install it on a different machine, deauthenticate it during the uninstallation.  yes, there will be people who figure out how to keep it installed, but that is no different than people who figure out how to crack the game to begin with.  

Great post, I agree 100%.

Agreeing with your agree.

Thirded, all this will do is encourage people to either find a crack that stops the game from calling home, or to not buy it and just pirate the version that's easier to use.

Honestly, punishing legitimate buyers by making them jump thorough extra hoops and making it harder for them to play the game than it is for the pirates, is not the way to stop pirating!

[Lyssistr]

coolide wrote...



That's hardly a concrete example.   Based on what I've read about their DRM, the statistical probability of that happening is insignificant.

How on earth did you calculate probabilities for that, what you're saying is that *you think* it will be unlikely.

In my experience DRM causes hiccups quite a few times, the worst happening when one has to install old DRM-drivers in order to replay an older game.

[coolide]

MrCrabby wrote...

Putting a smiley after posting a Draconian DRM like this is like thanking someone after violently raping them in an alley.

Not only am I not buying this product now, but I also will not buy Mass Effect 3 or the Old Republic. I have just plain had enough of this crap.

To those of you saying you will buy the game after saying you hate this DRM, you deserve this kind of treatment because you refuse to vote with your dollars. Buying a steam or console version instead of the PC version is not voting with your money. Either way you are rewarding the company.

Chris Priestly wrote...

Hi everyone

Recently there has been some concern over the DRM (Digital Rights Management) included with Dragon Age 2. Hopefully this post will help clarify what the DRM is for all versions of Dragon Age 2.

Steam versions use Steam DRM, no other DRM is added.

Non-Steam versions (digital or retail disc) are as follows:
- No disc check, you do not need the disc in drive to play.
- No limit on the total number of PCs you can install and play the game on.
- There is a limit to the number of unique/different PCs that can start/play the game within a time window [5 PCs in 24hrs].
- Each install requires logging in to your EA account to verify game ownership and if you are a member of these forums, you have an EA account.
- You can play offline but the game will require a login check after a select period of days.

Release Control (does not use securom)
      . It does not install anything to the PC.
      . Sole purpose is to check with a server to validate whether the game release date has passed or not. 
      . It completely removes itself after the game release date has passed. 
      . You will not be able to play until that date has passed.
      . Dates & times are set to the retail street date per country.

Hopefully this explains the DRM included in Dragon Age 2.

If you still have questions, please ask them here. However, this thread is NOT for the general discussion of DRM, the pros and cons of other DRM systems or any talk about circumventing DRM (which is against the rules of conduct and will be diciplined as such). Thanks.

As my boy Justin Timberlake would say:

Cry me a river

[slimgrin]

coolide wrote...


Oh my god.  Give it a rest.  You guys are acting like a bunch of hillbillies who are fighting gun restrictions.

You have trolled, and succeeded. Give yourself a pat on the back and move along.

[MrCrabby]

coolide wrote...

MrCrabby wrote...

Putting a smiley after posting a Draconian DRM like this is like thanking someone after violently raping them in an alley.

Not only am I not buying this product now, but I also will not buy Mass Effect 3 or the Old Republic. I have just plain had enough of this crap.

To those of you saying you will buy the game after saying you hate this DRM, you deserve this kind of treatment because you refuse to vote with your dollars. Buying a steam or console version instead of the PC version is not voting with your money. Either way you are rewarding the company.

Chris Priestly wrote...

Hi everyone

Recently there has been some concern over the DRM (Digital Rights Management) included with Dragon Age 2. Hopefully this post will help clarify what the DRM is for all versions of Dragon Age 2.

Steam versions use Steam DRM, no other DRM is added.

Non-Steam versions (digital or retail disc) are as follows:
- No disc check, you do not need the disc in drive to play.
- No limit on the total number of PCs you can install and play the game on.
- There is a limit to the number of unique/different PCs that can start/play the game within a time window [5 PCs in 24hrs].
- Each install requires logging in to your EA account to verify game ownership and if you are a member of these forums, you have an EA account.
- You can play offline but the game will require a login check after a select period of days.

Release Control (does not use securom)
      . It does not install anything to the PC.
      . Sole purpose is to check with a server to validate whether the game release date has passed or not. 
      . It completely removes itself after the game release date has passed. 
      . You will not be able to play until that date has passed.
      . Dates & times are set to the retail street date per country.

Hopefully this explains the DRM included in Dragon Age 2.

If you still have questions, please ask them here. However, this thread is NOT for the general discussion of DRM, the pros and cons of other DRM systems or any talk about circumventing DRM (which is against the rules of conduct and will be diciplined as such). Thanks.

As my boy Justin Timberlake would say:

Cry me a river

Trying to become a moderator are we?

[coolide]

Lyssistr wrote...

coolide wrote...



That's hardly a concrete example.   Based on what I've read about their DRM, the statistical probability of that happening is insignificant.

How on earth did you calculate probabilities for that, what you're saying is that *you think* it will be unlikely.

In my experience DRM causes hiccups quite a few times, the worst happening when one has to install old DRM-drivers in order to replay an older game.

I have a great mathematical mind and can estimate with great accuracy things very quickly.  The thing only requires you to certify that you are using a legitimate copy once every several days.  What they should do (and maybe are doing) is that you can certify it very day, but can go 5 days or whatever in between certifications.  That way you can go for a few days without the Internet and not have to worry.

[Lyssistr]

coolide wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

coolide wrote...



That's hardly a concrete example.   Based on what I've read about their DRM, the statistical probability of that happening is insignificant.

How on earth did you calculate probabilities for that, what you're saying is that *you think* it will be unlikely.

In my experience DRM causes hiccups quite a few times, the worst happening when one has to install old DRM-drivers in order to replay an older game.

I have a great mathematical mind and can estimate with great accuracy things very quickly. 

You're funny

[coolide]

MrCrabby wrote...

Trying to become a moderator are we?

No.  I just think that you're being a really big baby right now.

Modifié par coolide, 02 février 2011 - 03:47 .

[Eurypterid]

Folks, enough with the bickering back and forth about whose point of view is more valid. Everyone's entitled to their views and everyone's entitled to post their points on this DRM for DA2. Let's get it on track here and not keep going down this road of belittling other's opinions.

[Tin Soldier]

Eurypterid wrote...

Tin Soldier wrote...

Eurypterid wrote...

You can only activate on 5 PCs in any 24 hour period. There's no limit to how many you can install and play on.

Are you sure?  Mr. Priestly's original post says:
- There is a limit to the number of unique/different PCs that can start/play the game within a time window [5 PCs in 24hrs].

I'm not sure why this seems so complicated. You can only install/activate on 5 unique PCs in a 24 hour period. After that 24 hour period rolls by, you can install on 5 more. The statement just above the one you quoted, from Chris Priestly's OP, clearly states there's no limit on the number of PCs you can install on. You're restricted to 5 PCs only in any consecutive 24 hour period.

It's complicated because the line above the one I quoted says:
- No limit on the total number of PCs you can install and play the game on.
The line after the one I quoted says:
- Each install requires logging in to your EA account to verify game ownership and if you are a member of these forums, you have an EA account.
The line I quoted says nothing about either installing or activating the game. It says "start/play the game".
Until someone from EA/Bioware specifically states that the 24 hour limit is on installs I am going to assume that ET phones home on every startup.
edit: Can't spell or capitalise.

Modifié par Tin Soldier, 02 février 2011 - 04:01 .

[Seifz]

coolide wrote...

Seifz wrote...
I've posted multiple lists of reasons why you might not be able to connect to the Internet when the games wants to re-authorize.  I see no reason to do it again.

Besides, this is only one complaint against the DRM scheme.  There are many others and there are still many unanswered questions.  I can't imagine making a decision about this game without said answers.  For example, what data is being collected to identify which PC we're using?  Can I resell the game?  How many days between authorizations?  Etc.

Those questions have been answered multiple times.  I see no reason why they should be answered again.

Because they haven't been answered?  Please do provide a link.  I've read every post in this topic and I can't find an answer to any of them anywhere.   I had others, too.  They were all ignored.

[Eurypterid]

Tin Soldier wrote...
The line I quoted says nothing about either installing or activating the game. it says "start/play the game".
Until someone from EA/Bioware specifically states that the 24 hour limit is on installs I am going to assume that ET phones home on every startup.
edit: can't spell

Hmmm, good point. I read that to mean installing (since you can't start or play until you install). But you may have a point there. Some clarity would definitely not go amiss.

[MingWolf]

coolide wrote...

If you guys don't accept DRM, then I can
see computer games going extinct and them being exclusively made for
consoles. There is just no way they can justify making games for an
unprofitable system. If you want computer gaming to die, then keep on
complaining about their efforts to reduce piracy and boycotting their
products.

Computer games survived decades without DRM and
even in this day and age, would continue to do so.  This is a market
driven by customers, not pirates.  If you have a product that is valued
by your customers, then they will purchase them.  As a customer, I
wouldn't necessarily boycott a product because it has DRM, but I will
say that inconveniences me and thus I would rather spend my money on items giving me less hassles.  

DRM doesn't create any form of competitive advantage, in fact, it reduces
it.  That is why some games are marketed as DRM free, I believe. 

I'd say, leave piracy to the law to handle and those who are contemplative
of their own personal morals, and spare the paying customers from such
inconveniences, however slight it may be. 

Modifié par MingWolf, 02 février 2011 - 03:57 .

[Haussier]

So.. this means I don't own the game after I buy it? Well I'm sure a crack for this will be available soon enough. It won't do anything but delay the inevitable and possibly stop customers without the internets.

ps. This won't stop me from buying the game as I respect the bioware brand and love the DA setting but it does dull my enthusiasm for the game somewhat.

Modifié par Haussier, 02 février 2011 - 04:15 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

coolide wrote...

Lyssistr wrote...

coolide wrote...

If you guys don't accept DRM, then I can see computer games going extinct and them being exclusively made for consoles. There is just no way they can justify making games for an unprofitable system. If you want computer gaming to die, then keep on complaining about their efforts to reduce piracy and boycotting their products.

Well tbh, even though I'm not a big fan, playing on a console is better than installing that **** on your computer.

Oh my god.  Give it a rest.  You guys are acting like a bunch of hillbillies who are fighting gun restrictions.

There's just so much wrong in your statement there, all layered together, that I'd need to exceed the post size limit to break it all down.  Sheesh.

[Fernando Melo]

First, a reminder to keep it civil and within the rules laid out - this includes comments on pirating please.

I'll try to respond to specific questions I came across that cover the majority of posts...

----9----- wrote...
You note that Release Control does not use Securom, but do not state if SecuRom is being used as DA2's DRM.
Does DA2 install SecuRom or Solidshield or some other brand of DRM? You don't state the specific DRM.

No, none of those.  DA2 essentially uses the same system we used with DAO for non-steam digital versions, an internal EA light drm app.

z3razerviper wrote...
Is it basically the same drm the ea store version of dragon age 1 used? I know that one had the 5 machine in 24 hours thing as well.

Correct. 

----9----- wrote...

If so, will uninstalling DA2 also uninstall ALL the DRM? (Uninstalling ME1 did not uninstall SecuRom; Sony's SecuRom uninstall tool did not uninstall it either.)

Yes, everything is uninstalled.

prsquared wrote...
Can someone explain to me how Digital download works? I've bought the game from EA store.
Does this mean I'll be able to download the game a few days before it's released?

Not completely related to this thread, but yes - most digital providers will allow you to 'preload' a game you purchase, meaning you can start to download it ahead of the release date (usually 2-3days before release) and you have to connect again on release day to unlock.  But saves you the day 1 download rush.

This is exactly like ME1's DRM:

Well, actually in DRM terms under the hood this is light years away from that.

Amongst other DRM related issues, ME1 (and other titles with similar DRM setups) had a massive outcry largely because:
- It used Securom, or other 3rd party commercial drm, which players had several complaints about including not fully uninstalling itself
- It had a hard limit on the number of machines you could install to, and although rare this could occasionally not add up correctly
- It had no method of de-authorizing itself from a machine (at launch time, this was made available later), which further aggravated the errors in the previous point if those occured
- It had to phone home every 10days (or in some titles, always)


This system, apart from being much more user and system friendly in a lot more subtle ways than most commercial drm software, has none of the first 3 items/restrictions.  And the jury is still out on the last item on the list (including whether to even have this).

So for those already tearing hair out in frustration - this is entirely your prerogative of course - if your concern really is only that final item I'd suggest waiting until that is actually decided on.

F.

Modifié par Fernando Melo, 02 février 2011 - 04:40 .

[Eurypterid]

Awesome info, Fernando. And it's actually very nice to see that the recurring checks are not something set in stone yet. I'll be eagerly watching for an update on this.

[MDarwin]

Fernando Melo wrote...

First, a reminder to keep it civil and within the rules laid out - this includes comments on pirating please.

I'll try to respond to specific questions I came across that cover the majority of posts...

----9----- wrote...
You note that Release Control does not use Securom, but do not state if SecuRom is being used as DA2's DRM.
Does DA2 install SecuRom or Solidshield or some other brand of DRM? You don't state the specific DRM.

No, none of those.  DA2 essentially uses the same system we used with DAO for non-steam digital versions, an internal EA light drm app.

z3razerviper wrote...
Is it basically the same drm the ea store version of dragon age 1 used? I know that one had the 5 machine in 24 hours thing as well.

Correct. 

----9----- wrote...

If so, will uninstalling DA2 also uninstall ALL the DRM? (Uninstalling ME1 did not uninstall SecuRom; Sony's SecuRom uninstall tool did not uninstall it either.)

Yes, everything is uninstalled.

prsquared wrote...
Can someone explain to me how Digital download works? I've bought the game from EA store.
Does this mean I'll be able to download the game a few days before it's released?

Not completely related to this thread, but yes - most digital providers will allow you to 'preload' a game you purchase, meaning you can start to download it ahead of the release date (usually 2-3days before release) and you have to connect again on release day to unlock.  But saves you the day 1 download rush.

This is exactly like ME1's DRM:

Well, actually in DRM terms under the hood this is light years away from that.

Amongst other DRM related issues, ME1 (and other titles with similar DRM setups) had a massive outcry largely because:
- It used Securom, or other 3rd party commercial drm, which players had several complaints about including not fully uninstalling itself
- It had a hard limit on the number of machines you could install to, and although rare this could occasionally not add up correctly
- It had no method of de-authorizing itself from a machine (at launch time, this was made available later), which further aggravated the errors in the previous point if those occured
- It had to phone home every 10days (or in some titles, always)


This system, apart from being much more user and system friendly in a lot more subtle ways than most commercial drm software, has none of the first 3 items/restrictions.  And the jury is still out on the last item on the list (including whether to even have this).

So for those already tearing hair out in frustration - this is entirely your prerogative of course - if your concern really is only that final item I'd suggest waiting until that is actually decided on.

F.

Thanks for that. When is the final point status "resolved"? Can you give us an aprox. time(line).
Thanks.

[Mariquis]

Eurypterid wrote...

Tin Soldier wrote...
The line I quoted says nothing about either installing or activating the game. it says "start/play the game".
Until someone from EA/Bioware specifically states that the 24 hour limit is on installs I am going to assume that ET phones home on every startup.
edit: can't spell

Hmmm, good point. I read that to mean installing (since you can't start or play until you install). But you may have a point there. Some clarity would definitely not go amiss.

Yes it really is that damnable slash that's the problem. It could either mean install AND play or install OR play. If that slash in an 'or' then.. yeah. It seems like you'd have to connect every time. Hopefully someone will clarify.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I just noticed that CP said this thread is NOT for discussion of DRM, like he knew we'd object, and we did.



I also think it's funny that a few of the moderators are saying they won't be buying the game if this DRM is done. When your own staff (even if they are merely trusted forum users doing a volunteer job? Not sure where the moderators stand with Bioware, just know from other forum sites that mods usually are volunteers) isn't going to be buying your product, there might be a problem.

[metalfenix]

Mudface67 wrote...

Paying Customer: -

Pays £30.

"Thank you for buying the game. We will now check if you're a pirate"
*Copy activated*

*x days later*
"Are you a pirate now?"
*copy authenticated*

*x days later*
"How about now?"
*copy authenticated*

*x days later*
"I bet you pirated this, didn't you?"
*copy authenticated*

*x days later*
"Are you a pir......"
*error- cannot connect to server. terminating*

Repeat ad nauseam.

Pirate: -

Plays game for free.

My feelings exactly. Sorry bioware, I bought a DAO CE for PC and a good load of DLC through the bioware store (and I have an awakening retail copy coming to my country as I write this) and I was planning to have DA 2 the same way...but seeing that I have to validate my copy through internet from time to time meanwhile the pirates doesn't need to authenticate anything made me reconsider about buying DA 2.

[slimgrin]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

I just noticed that CP said this thread is NOT for discussion of DRM, like he knew we'd object, and we did.

I also think it's funny that a few of the moderators are saying they won't be buying the game if this DRM is done. When your own staff (even if they are merely trusted forum users doing a volunteer job? Not sure where the moderators stand with Bioware, just know from other forum sites that mods usually are volunteers) isn't going to be buying your product, there might be a problem.

I suspect they may be taking the Capcom route in regard to pc gaming.