976 réponses à ce sujet

[Estelindis]

Thank you for the clarifications, Mr. Melo. The DRM you're describing doesn't sound quite as bad as I'd thought at first, given that any online log-in will reset the clock in terms of the need for the next check-in (so if one is going on a long trip, for instance, one can guarantee that the online issue won't cause problems for at least a few days). However, I still hope EA will consider a CD check as an alternate method of authentication, as people with only very occasional (or no) internet access should not be excluded from playing a game when they've paid for the disk.

[ladydesire]

Estelindis wrote...

Thank you for the clarifications, Mr. Melo. The DRM you're describing doesn't sound quite as bad as I'd thought at first, given that any online log-in will reset the clock in terms of the need for the next check-in (so if one is going on a long trip, for instance, one can guarantee that the online issue won't cause problems for at least a few days). However, I still hope EA will consider a CD check as an alternate method of authentication, as people with only very occasional (or no) internet access should not be excluded from playing a game when they've paid for the disk.

It should also be a choice for those that would prefer it to "constant babysitting". 

[BeastMTL]

My only real concern with the whole DRM thing is the phone home side.
It's not a question for me of having a 'net connection, but a question of having potentially private information sent to EA without my consent. And if I disagree with it, having another expensive coaster as PC games are non-returnable by law here.

1. This needs to be specifically and obviously visible on the box, not in a EULA which is only visible after purchase (unacceptable).
2. EA is infamous for turning off servers, this makes it an expensive rental.

so thanks but no-thanks.. I'll definitely be skipping DA2 now.

Modifié par BeastMTL, 02 février 2011 - 02:59 .

[XX55XX]

Just one thought on DRM:

If EA is going to force us to login to our accounts every time we play, they should strive to add some value to this DRM, kind of like how Steam allows us to download our games onto any computer, from anywhere, and play. Thus, I propose that EA consider enabling cloud-saving so that we can access our save games more easily between systems. I play on a laptop when I go to school and play on a "gaming rig" when I come home. Cloud saving, hence, would allow EA to better justify this sort of DRM while offering consumers some added value from it.

Otherwise, this "phoning home" sort of DRM has less of an excuse in our systems.

[Gvaz]

The DRM sounds fine. Logging in seems a bit lame though.

[Snelle Jaap]

Indeed i dont mind the single check or a check when you get DLC thats all good.
But i do mind that there is the every X day we will check if YOU a paying customer is a pirate.
Thanks man thats realy great ! ...
But like some say'd its not yet clear if they will do that. but i won't hold my breath:sick:

Modifié par Snelle Jaap, 02 février 2011 - 03:12 .

[philbo1965uk]

TripedWire wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Agreed...Tripwire

But go further and realise the lockdown (which you know is a minor inconvenience to coders) agenda is to tackle custom content and make you rely on the publisher for all new content, and you are there.

I'm a modder/mapmaker within the FPS community and we've been subjected to the publisher agenda over the last 24 month.

I understand my bias...but when I see it being pushed across genre it's a concern.

Well yea, I always thought that the release of toolkits and actively supporting the fans own creativity was the exceptional part of PC gaming and when NeverWinter nights was released it seemed we were entering an exciting new era of mutual fan and developer co-operation with the goal of making great content placed way above the bottom line.
It still exists to some extent as in the excellent G.E.C.K released and supported by Bethesda demonstrates however it also seems that developers exploit the modders as unpaid beta testers these days as a lot of games are virtually unplayable on release and you're better off waiting six months until talented people who receive no plaudits or compensation for their efforts do some proper QA.
Theres also a depressing appetitie for nude mod as well, where did it all go wrong? 

The dev/modding relationship was mutually advantageous...many modding idea's are and have been incorporated into the development...not to mention come release many of the issues we see today ( COD as an example)where largely addressed.I don't think anyone would disagree that you garner far more information on your product from the community than any closed inhouse testing could ever achieve.
Which is why we see after that was nipped in the bud the travesty that was MW2 and even shall we say greater in extent problems with BO's

I don't blame the devs directly as this is totally the result of the Publishers agenda,it is the publisher that see's no benefit in custom content.As you will know with the availability of imaginitive community maps there is no real incentive to purchase them.This is why mappacks on FPS's were largely sponsored on the PC platform.

Wether people agree is a matter for them.The fact is we are seeing an increasing more restrictive approach to gaming on the PC platform as they intend to consolize the platform.It is very real and done under the auspice of tackling piracy.

It is publisher driven for shorter game length..they want to get as much out of one title as possible...which is why we had the debacle of the content to be sold already on the disk with some games.

Wether people view  the matter of DRM serious enough to stand on the principal....will only be known at a future date.The practice should be illegal.If piracy was the real issue then they would have invested some of those billions in encrypted authentication such as Sony use....what a mess they made of that lol
You don't have to play games to take notice of the fact that computer/console games are big business...and that what we have at present a largely self regulated industry ..isn't working.Our youth are being exploited..the sooner the industry is independantly regulated the better for us all.

Modifié par philbo1965uk, 02 février 2011 - 03:24 .

[Cheiron the Centaur]

EA's privacy policy states:

A. What Types of Non-Personal Information Does EA Collect?

When you use EA online and mobile products and services or you play our games on your PC or game system, we may collect certain non-personal demographic information including gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, game system, media, mobile device, including device IDs, incident data, Internet Protocol (IP) address, network Media Access Control (MAC) address and connection.

Bioware, can you 100% guarantee that the internet connection required by this DRM will only be used to match the installation key of the game against my EA account, and that none of the other data mentioned by EA in their privacy statement, will be collected or sent to EA?

Modifié par Cheiron the Centaur, 02 février 2011 - 03:25 .

[philbo1965uk]

BeastMTL wrote...

My only real concern with the whole DRM thing is the phone home side.
It's not a question for me of having a 'net connection, but a question of having potentially private information sent to EA without my consent. And if I disagree with it, having another expensive coaster as PC games are non-returnable by law here.

1. This needs to be specifically and obviously visible on the box, not in a EULA which is only visible after purchase (unacceptable).
2. EA is infamous for turning off servers, this makes it an expensive rental.

so thanks but no-thanks.. I'll definitely be skipping DA2 now.

Well the repeated online authentication check ..is very attractive to the Publisher for the following reason.Not only does it assist in the lockdown against piracy/custom content....but it also negates the possibility of you purchasing one game and playing it over LAN/sharing the game.

[philbo1965uk]

Cheiron the Centaur wrote...

EA's privacy policy states:

A. What Types of Non-Personal Information Does EA Collect?

When you use EA online and mobile products and services or you play our games on your PC or game system, we may collect certain non-personal demographic information including gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, game system, media, mobile device, including device IDs, incident data, Internet Protocol (IP) address, network Media Access Control (MAC) address and connection.

Bioware, can you 100% guarantee that the internet connection required by this DRM will only be used to match the installation key of the game against my EA account, and that none of the other data mentioned by EA in their privacy statement, will be collected or sent to EA?

You already know the answer !

I want to say  DRM is not only intrusive....it should be damn well  illegal.

As illegal as Microsoft enforcing a 'code of conduct' agreement for multiplay experience.Why people willfully sign up to XBOXLIVE..windows for games Live and STEAM is beyond me.

I do neither...why would you want to give up your consumer rights to your purchase.

I presume you wouldn't buy a car under the agreement if you wind your window down and swear at other road users that the car will be confiscated during the night by the manufacturer with no point of appeal or redress ?

Yet XBOX live has millions of subscribers....and it does just that.

I'll give you an example..I bought my 16 yr old nephew a 1 year LIVE subscription for the year at xmas.He has never played online ever..Yet within the hour and despite the fact we were all present and he had no MIC..he was banned 'code of conduct'.....presumably reported by some malicious tyke....yet over a month later and many emails..we've yet to recieve a response.

[Estelindis]

philbo1965uk wrote...

Well the repeated online authentication check ..is very attractive to the Publisher for the following reason.Not only does it assist in the lockdown against piracy/custom content....but it also negates the possibility of you purchasing one game and playing it over LAN/sharing the game.

How does it achieve the latter, given that up to five computers can share and play the same copy of DA2 according to this thread?

[Cheiron the Centaur]

philbo1965uk wrote...

You already know the answer !

Well, it may be misplaced, now that EA is pulling the strings, but Bioware built up some credit with me due to their fairness and reliability in the past, so I'd love to hear their own answer and views on this.

[Elsariel]

Estelindis wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Well the repeated online authentication check ..is very attractive to the Publisher for the following reason.Not only does it assist in the lockdown against piracy/custom content....but it also negates the possibility of you purchasing one game and playing it over LAN/sharing the game.

How does it achieve the latter, given that up to five computers can share and play the same copy of DA2 according to this thread?

If there is no online authentication check, and no disc check, and if you give the game to your friend to load, then then both you and your friend can play DA2 and Bioware will be out the money of one purchase. 

[philbo1965uk]

Estelindis wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Well the repeated online authentication check ..is very attractive to the Publisher for the following reason.Not only does it assist in the lockdown against piracy/custom content....but it also negates the possibility of you purchasing one game and playing it over LAN/sharing the game.

How does it achieve the latter, given that up to five computers can share and play the same copy of DA2 according to this thread?

Forgive me...I wasn't speaking specifically about DA2.

But now you ask it is still pertinent..5..why not 10 or 15 what does it matter how many computers you have or how many times you format,you purchased a legitimate copy and aslong as you don't infringe copyright what business is it of a company to tell you what you should do.

The fact it is 5 tells you that you are restricted in similar fashion.

[SupedUpGhostChili]

i have a huge problem with this kinda spyware crap cause it treats paying customers like we're criminals and need to be checked up on every few days or we'll steal everything...its rediculous imo

[StingingVelvet]

Man, reading about Bionic Commando Rearmed 2 on Playstation 3 it needs an online authentication every time you start the game! At least we aren't getting that.



All these companies are going to go further and further until consumers tell them NO.

[Lyssistr]

The problem is ...



It's not Bio who installs DRM nor do they make DRM decisions, it's the publisher, EA in this case. It's good to see Bio people posting here, but what we really need is EA people posting here.



I'm sure EA staff reads these forums from time to time and I hope they appreciate that people with registered games voice concerns. DRM is putting restrictions on those that pay for the game, pirates will get the game DRM-free anyhow.



EA, why technically restrict the product for those that *pay* for it.

[Killjoy Cutter]

coolide wrote...

Seifz wrote...

coolide wrote...

Is being connected to the Internet such a inconvenience? You're connected right now.

For many, yes.  Connected right now is not equal to connected always.

You use the word many quite liberally.  I would estimate that close to 99% of the people in first world countries have Internet access.

If you use the most broad and loose standard, then maybe.  You'd have to include dial-up, satellite, wireless broadband, public / free wi-fi, etc.

And that ignore the issue of the "authentication" servers being down, overloaded, or otherwise not accessible by the software.

If I buy a piece of software, there should be no need for me to routinely contact someone to "prove" that it's mine before I can run it.

[Haussier]

I told them no when the whole star craft 2 thing happened It broke my little heart but it had to be done.

[philbo1965uk]

Elsariel wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

Well the repeated online authentication check ..is very attractive to the Publisher for the following reason.Not only does it assist in the lockdown against piracy/custom content....but it also negates the possibility of you purchasing one game and playing it over LAN/sharing the game.

How does it achieve the latter, given that up to five computers can share and play the same copy of DA2 according to this thread?

If there is no online authentication check, and no disc check, and if you give the game to your friend to load, then then both you and your friend can play DA2 and Bioware will be out the money of one purchase. 

No they are not  !

That's like saying any member of my family that wish to play DA2 should be forced to go out and buy their own copy.What form of DRM do you think would be most  suitable ..maybe retinal scanning via webcam.

That is exactly the draconian corporate thought that removed the LAN feature from games.

It's far more political than I want to get into...but piracy does not equate a lost sale, as those that have use of pirated games have no intention of purchasing....what you and they are suggesting is that coat you bought is for your use only BY FORCE.Fortunately that isn't how the world works.

You should be asking what is it exactly these corporate giants have against me loading my legal purchase of Windows 7 on several other PC's I own .

If they had their way you'd be playing that new sleepless in seattle DVD in one machine then render the DVD useless after...that isn';t the world most level headed people want to live in.

[ladydesire]

philbo1965uk wrote...

But now you ask it is still pertinent..5..why not 10 or 15 what does it matter how many computers you have or how many times you format,you purchased a legitimate copy and aslong as you don't infringe copyright what business is it of a company to tell you what you should do.

The fact it is 5 tells you that you are restricted in similar fashion.

Because the corporate bean counters don't understand the practices of some gamers (reformatting every X months) or that some people might get a new computer or not want their gaming PC anywhere near the internet. Of course, the fact that we can (and legally, mind you) install on more than one PC means that they are starting to learn. What would be nice is if we could get confirmation that the current plan will not interfere with a future toolset update, which would mean that your feelings about EA and modding are misplaced, at least where DA2 is concerned.

[Lyssistr]

My problem is a simple one, there is the concept of fair use, people are legally entitled to use the products they've purchased in certain ways.



Why should paying customers have to go to sites with cracks to make full use of "fair use"? this is a slap in the face for those who pay their games. People who don't pay get the "DRM-free" edition anyhow.

[Elsariel]

philbo1965uk wrote...

That's like saying any member of my family that wish to play DA2 should be forced to go out and buy their own copy.What form of DRM do you think would be most  suitable ..maybe retinal scanning via webcam.

Well, if a member of my family wished to play DA2, then they could play from any number of my PC's that I've loaded the game on.  And, I'd have to be okay with them using MY EA login credentials every so often.  However, (hypothetically speaking) I'm NOT so okay with my friend using my EA login credentials when playing the game I loaded on her machine.  Therefore, I wouldn't be loaning the game to her.  

I don't like it.  In fact, I hate it.  But I do see how it can work for the company as a deterrant.   And honestly, I've got no other ideas on how to get around it without making it inconvenient for the honest buyer.

what you and they are suggesting is that coat you bought is for your use only BY FORCE.Fortunately that isn't how the world works.

Coat analogy doesn't work.  It's one coat that gets passed along to another person.  I'm not making a COPY of the coat that I give to my friend.  By loaning my friend a coat, I forego the use of it.

You should be asking what is it exactly these corporate giants have against me loading my legal purchase of Windows 7 on several other PC's I own .

You honestly don't see the harm in loading your Windows 7 on several other PC's?  YOU may be someone who is honest and will only load it on PC's that YOU own.  Others will not be so honest and will give all their friends a copy of the operating system.  

Please tell me you see how THAT can be a loss of revenue.  Who's going to purchase the operating system when they have a friend who will give it to them for free??

AGAIN - I hate that this DRM crap exists.  I'd like to play my game that I purchased without any hassle.  However, if I look at the company's side of things, I can see why they'd attempt to control illegal distribution. 

[Lyssistr]

Elsariel wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

That's like saying any member of my family that wish to play DA2 should be forced to go out and buy their own copy.What form of DRM do you think would be most  suitable ..maybe retinal scanning via webcam.

Well, if a member of my family wished to play DA2, then they could play from any number of my PC's that I've loaded the game on.  And, I'd have to be okay with them using MY EA login credentials every so often.  However, (hypothetically speaking) I'm NOT so okay with my friend using my EA login credentials when playing the game I loaded on her machine.  Therefore, I wouldn't be loaning the game to her.  

I don't like it.  In fact, I hate it.  But I do see how it can work for the company as a deterrant.   And honestly, I've got no other ideas on how to get around it without making it inconvenient for the honest buyer.

what you and they are suggesting is that coat you bought is for your use only BY FORCE.Fortunately that isn't how the world works.

Coat analogy doesn't work.  It's one coat that gets passed along to another person.  I'm not making a COPY of the coat that I give to my friend.  By loaning my friend a coat, I forego the use of it.

You should be asking what is it exactly these corporate giants have against me loading my legal purchase of Windows 7 on several other PC's I own .

You honestly don't see the harm in loading your Windows 7 on several other PC's?  YOU may be someone who is honest and will only load it on PC's that YOU own.  Others will not be so honest and will give all their friends a copy of the operating system.  

Please tell me you see how THAT can be a loss of revenue.  Who's going to purchase the operating system when they have a friend who will give it to them for free??

AGAIN - I hate that this DRM crap exists.  I'd like to play my game that I purchased without any hassle.  However, if I look at the company's side of things, I can see why they'd attempt to control illegal distribution. 

What you say is a reasonable defense of DRM practices, no-one can deny the other side has some arguments in favor of DRM.

 The problem is this, it's the customer paying them, not them paying the customer. They should be the ones trying to get into the customer's shoes, not the other way round.

 Quite a few times, their DRM practices have backfired, especially for EA, exactly because it's the customer who can skip their product alltogether if they want to play hardball.

[CorpZe]

Quick Solution to everyones problem. Buy it on the console.