976 réponses à ce sujet

[Unato]

yea I don't have broadband or adsl which is more common in Aus, currently on my phone which is my primary method of getting online

[Seifz]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seifz wrote...
  The EULA that we need to sign for DA2 actually violates the law numerous times.  Most of those violations are a result of the DRM that we're being asked to accept.  I can't believe how many people are okay with this.

I want to maintain my right to resell this game if I chose to do so.
I want to maintain my right to play this game as often as I'd like, whenever I'd like, and wherever I'd like.
I want to maintain my right to make archival copies of this game in case of disc failure.
I want to maintain my right to privacy in regards to the information on my computer, including my browsing habits.

The EULA and ToS strip me of all these rights as part of the overall DRM scheme.  That's not acceptable.

This is incoherent. If the EULA really does violate the law, then it is void and it can't strip you of any rights.

You need to pick one of these.

Effectively, it can.  For example, consider the right to resell the game that is granted me by the First Sale doctrine.  Once I've tired my serial code to my EA account, I cannot resell the game without first removing that tie.  However, EA provides no way to do this and states in the EULA that the serial code (and thus the game) cannot be transfered.  What are my options?  I can either accept the loss of my rights or I can hire a lawyer and try to take on EA.  Effectively, I have no options.  Maybe you can afford the court costs of such a battle, but I certainly can't.

I can make a similar argument for each of those other rights.  The DRM will prevent me from playing the game when I can't connect to the Internet, when EA's servers are down, once EA stops supporting the game, etc.  I (probably) cannot make archival copies of the game disc because of protection measures.  I cannot play the game without first submitting an unknown set of data to EA when I authorize it.

[Holy_Shielder]

Morroian wrote...

Unato wrote...

I said it a few times in this thread I think, I'm just against intrusive drm which IMO this dial home mechanism is

Its not intrusive if you have a broadband connection.

How does the type of connection effect that?

[Lasrick]

Well I for one would like to thank Bioware for not going crazy insane in their anti-piracy/DRM protection scheme. I have refused to purchase a few games lately due to the anti-piracy software those games require. I'm very glad to hear that the Steam version uses Steam DRM. I'll be going that route for sure.



Thanks Bioware!

[AlanC9]

Seifz wrote...

This is incoherent. If the EULA really does violate the law, then it is void and it can't strip you of any rights.

You need to pick one of these.

Effectively, it can.  For example, consider the right to resell the game that is granted me by the First Sale doctrine.  Once I've tired my serial code to my EA account, I cannot resell the game without first removing that tie.  However, EA provides no way to do this and states in the EULA that the serial code (and thus the game) cannot be transfered.  What are my options?  I can either accept the loss of my rights or I can hire a lawyer and try to take on EA.  Effectively, I have no options.  Maybe you can afford the court costs of such a battle, but I certainly can't.

Oh, I see. We're using different definitions of what it means to "violate the law."

I've hung around with the theoreticians more, so when I talk about "law" I talk about what the police and courts will actually enforce. That's real law; anything else is either theory or rhetoric. (When you work in theory, it's important to know the difference). I shouldn't talk this way around laymen; sorry for the sloppiness.

If what you're saying is that according to your theory you have a bunch of rights that aren't going to be enforcedby the legal system as things stand, I have no disagreement. Except to remind you that EA has a different theory, of course.

[AlanC9]

Holy_Shielder wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Unato wrote...

I said it a few times in this thread I think, I'm just against intrusive drm which IMO this dial home mechanism is

Its not intrusive if you have a broadband connection.

How does the type of connection effect that?

Broadband connections are typically transparent and always on. You wouldn't even notice that DA2 was phoning home with such a connection. Hence, not intrusive.

[Seifz]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seifz wrote...

This is incoherent. If the EULA really does violate the law, then it is void and it can't strip you of any rights.

You need to pick one of these.

Effectively, it can.  For example, consider the right to resell the game that is granted me by the First Sale doctrine.  Once I've tired my serial code to my EA account, I cannot resell the game without first removing that tie.  However, EA provides no way to do this and states in the EULA that the serial code (and thus the game) cannot be transfered.  What are my options?  I can either accept the loss of my rights or I can hire a lawyer and try to take on EA.  Effectively, I have no options.  Maybe you can afford the court costs of such a battle, but I certainly can't.

Oh, I see. We're using different definitions of what it means to "violate the law."

I've hung around with the theoreticians more, so when I talk about "law" I talk about what the police and courts will actually enforce. That's real law; anything else is either theory or rhetoric. (When you work in theory, it's important to know the difference). I shouldn't talk this way around laymen; sorry for the sloppiness.

If what you're saying is that according to your theory you have a bunch of rights that aren't going to be enforcedby the legal system as things stand, I have no disagreement. Except to remind you that EA has a different theory, of course.

When I say law, I mean law.  Like, actual law.  You and your theoreticians can shove it.

EDIT:  Specifically, these laws.  I'll provide them in Wikipedia format for easy reading, but of course links to the actual laws are there.

http://en.wikipedia....t-sale_doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

EDIT2:  Fixed the third link.

Modifié par Seifz, 03 février 2011 - 04:52 .

[AlanC9]

Seifz wrote...
When I say law, I mean law.  Like, actual law. 

"Actual law" is whatever you would like it to be? Edit: or rather, your preferred legal interpretation, though that's essentially the same thing.

And "shove it"? Dude, you need to take a break from this thread; the strain's clearly getting to you.

EDIT:  Specifically, these laws.  I'll provide them in Wikipedia format for easy reading, but of course links to the actual laws are there.

http://en.wikipedia....t-sale_doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
http://en.wikipedia....blic_disclosure

You linked those before. You might want to read them yourself. The first sale doctrine (not law, btw) page plainly says that the doctrine doesn't necessarily mean what you keep insisting it means. Your preferred reading isn't universally accepted, and if the 9th Circuit has its way the whole doctrine might go down the tubes. What courts grant, courts can take away.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[slimgrin]

Forget the law, what about inconvenience?

Why should I be inconvenienced for a game I have legitimately acquired? Sometimes my connection goes down. So that means I don't get to play the game I just bought!?

Guess what pirates are doing when their internet connection fails? They are playing the game.

Instead of thanking Bioware for bending us over, players should realize this crap is not fair for everyone, because not everyone has a constant internet connection. It's that simple.

Modifié par slimgrin, 03 février 2011 - 05:11 .

[Seifz]

AlanC9 wrote...

Seifz wrote...
When I say law, I mean law.  Like, actual law. 

"Actual law" is whatever you would like it to be? Edit: or rather, your preferred legal interpretation, though that's essentially the same thing.

And "shove it"? Dude, you need to take a break from this thread; the strain's clearly getting to you.

EDIT:  Specifically, these laws.  I'll provide them in Wikipedia format for easy reading, but of course links to the actual laws are there.

http://en.wikipedia....t-sale_doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use
http://en.wikipedia....blic_disclosure

You linked those before. You might want to read them yourself. The first sale doctrine (not law, btw) page plainly says that the doctrine doesn't necessarily mean what you keep insisting it means. Your preferred reading isn't universally accepted, and if the 9th Circuit has its way the whole doctrine might go down the tubes. What courts grant, courts can take away.

The First Sale Doctrine itself isn't a law, but the Copyright Act of 1976 very much is.  So is the Clayton Act of 1914.  The law is very simple.

According to Section 17 U.S.C § 109

Notwithstanding the provisions of section
106
(3),
the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this
title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the
authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the
possession of that copy or phonorecord.

As I mentioned once previously, there has been a single ruling against this law (the Autodesk case), but many in favor of it.  Unless and until the law is struck down entirely, it's the law.

So please, stop acting like a pompous jerk and assuming that I'm some layman.  Please.

[MDarwin]

AlanC9 wrote...

Holy_Shielder wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Unato wrote...

I said it a few times in this thread I think, I'm just against intrusive drm which IMO this dial home mechanism is

Its not intrusive if you have a broadband connection.

How does the type of connection effect that?

Broadband connections are typically transparent and always on. You wouldn't even notice that DA2 was phoning home with such a connection. Hence, not intrusive.

I switch my modem off, as I am not a "Net Junky". And for me: Intrusive= Calling "Elvis" uhhh, Home of cause.

[wulfsturm]

I'm enjoying reading this thread with all of the people in it who believe they know better then EA's lawyers.



Heh.

[AlanC9]

MDarwin wrote...
I switch my modem off, as I am not a "Net Junky". And for me: Intrusive= Calling "Elvis" uhhh, Home of cause.

How come you bother toggling the switch? To save power?

But yeah, if you're constantly flipping the switch back and forth then this will be intrusive for you. I don't think most broadband users bother to do this, though. I certainly don't, but that's because my modem is at the other end of the house. I suppose I could disable the wireless adapter if I really wanted to, but I don't see what purpose would be served.

[Morroian]

MDarwin wrote...
I switch my modem off, as I am not a "Net Junky". And for me: Intrusive= Calling "Elvis" uhhh, Home of cause.

So switch it on if and when the game wants you to hardly a big deal.

[MDarwin]

AlanC9 wrote...

MDarwin wrote...
I switch my modem off, as I am not a "Net Junky". And for me: Intrusive= Calling "Elvis" uhhh, Home of cause.

How come you bother toggling the switch? To save power?

But yeah, if you're constantly flipping the switch back and forth then this will be intrusive for you. I don't think most broadband users bother to do this, though. I certainly don't, but that's because my modem is at the other end of the house. I suppose I could disable the wireless adapter if I really wanted to, but I don't see what purpose would be served.

I once left my comp on. Boy was I unkucky on that night. Since than, if I don't wanna use the net, I switch the modem off.

[MDarwin]

Morroian wrote...

MDarwin wrote...
I switch my modem off, as I am not a "Net Junky". And for me: Intrusive= Calling "Elvis" uhhh, Home of cause.

So switch it on if and when the game wants you to hardly a big deal.

The only program I will allow to excess the net (on it's own), is my Antivirus program.

[Soul Juggalo]

Royas wrote...

aerowars617 wrote...

I for one am glad I won't have to have the disk in the drive, it'll make switching between ME2 & DA2 that much easier as I'll only have 1 DVD (ME2's) to worry about. Plus once its installed I can forget about the DA2 DVD Thanks BioWare!

I can honestly say that I never understood what the problem was with disk checks.  Am I the only person who takes care of his disks and stores them away so I can find them?  To me a disk check is the most convenient, least intrusive DRM available.  No need for the dev or publisher to keep a server up, no third parties dumping junk drivers on your computer, no worries about the company being around tomorrow.  Just plug and play.  And that's what I want out of my games, I don't want to have to associate with the publisher or the developer after purchasing a game.  Just like I don't want to have to communicate with the maker of my pencil or my soda after I purchase those products.

The only interaction I want with BioEA is this... I go to the strore.  I buy the game.  End of association, thank you very much, now go away.

You are not the online one who thinks like that. I appreciate it if i wont have to keep inserting the dvd, but i couldn't care less if i have to. Just sort your dvds and insert them if needed. Can't be that hard you should think.
But than again, i see it so damn many times if i go to some friends and they never have any clue where they put my games or dvds i lend them.

edit: Buying DA2 or not. :mellow:For now i wait for the demo to play and decide than if i still keep my pre-order running.
As always i want to have the option to sell what i bought.

Modifié par Soul Juggalo, 03 février 2011 - 06:55 .

[mcneil_1]

Its quite amazing that people wanted to know what the drm for the pc version was before they preordered and the info comes out nearly a month after the signature edition offer expired <_<

[less_than_three]

I was pretty excited about purchasing DA2, but given this phone home BS I've decided not to purchase it.

I'll just wait till the "sunset" patches are applied and it's on clearance at the local gaming store.

Good Job EA/Bioware!!  You just lost a sale!

[ZaroktheImmortal]

[Deccers1]

Sounds good to me!

[JigPig]

MDarwin wrote...

I once left my comp on. Boy was I unkucky on that night. Since than, if I don't wanna use the net, I switch the modem off.

MDarwin wrote...


The only program I will allow to excess the net (on it's own), is my Antivirus program. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sideways.png[/smilie]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about please stop.

[snackrat]

The DRM seems very reasonable, in my opinion. I would only be concerned about the 'check in every couple days' but I don't imagine that would take to long or use up too much of my limited broadband, and I'd probably want to do that to update my Bioware profile's characters and cheevos anyway.



Good to know that it's not as aggressive as, say, Spore. (I still haven't reinstalled that after upgrading to W7, and don't think I ever will. I probably used up the 5 installs endlessly having to REinstall it when it didn't work. AUGH)

[AlanC9]

MDarwin wrote...

I once left my comp on. Boy was I unkucky on that night. Since than, if I don't wanna use the net, I switch the modem off.

What kind of unlucky are we talking about here, anyway?

[Fraevar]

slimgrin wrote...

Forget the law, what about inconvenience?

Why should I be inconvenienced for a game I have legitimately acquired? Sometimes my connection goes down. So that means I don't get to play the game I just bought!?

Guess what pirates are doing when their internet connection fails? They are playing the game.

Instead of thanking Bioware for bending us over, players should realize this crap is not fair for everyone, because not everyone has a constant internet connection. It's that simple.

QFT.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Disc-check combined with DLC authentication did the job just fine in DAO and ME2, if sales are to be believed. Or, make it optional so that the user can choose whether they want to use a disc-check or the phone-home authentication.

As long as this game requires phoning home in order for me to use my legitimate purchase then I will not be buying it. Other than the various technical concerns and broadband penetration issues, I honestly find it insulting that EA want to check in on me from time to time because I have the audacity to have a PC as my primary gaming platform.