976 réponses à ce sujet

[kingjezza]

The only way you'll stop these unscrupulous practices from these companies is by hitting them where it hurts, in their wallets. The problem is, EA/Bioware know that's not going to happen, they know perfectly well that people will have a good moan but still go out and buy the game so these sort of things will continue.



If they said this is the DRM for this game and everybody said screw this I'll cancel my order or not buy the game when it was released then that DRM would be removed in no time, as that is not going to happen the paying customer will just have to put up with being treated like crap and a thief while the pirates will go on as usual being their piratey selves.

[Synagas]

Overall, I agree with the concept of DRM. A company has a right to make money off a product they worked to make and are selling, and pirates are only causing problems. If there is no DRM, right after the game comes out, a large portion of the community would simply download the hacked version and play that. I know there are many here who would still buy it, but unfortunately, reality is, not as many as we would like to believe, and not enough to keep a company like EA afloat.



The problem comes down to is how does a company manage protection of their software while also giving the greatest opportunity to the majority of its customers. EA is trying, and I doubt anyone here would have a better solution. CD check? Try a mounted image, and bam, looks real to the system and easy as hell to pirate.



Granted, I don't like, or agree, with the internet connection required, after all, I was in Iraq for a year with shoddy internet at best, and for a more recent picture, look at Egypt who had internet down for about five days. No gaming for them due to no internet for checks.



In the end, EA is trying, just not making what we consider the cut. You must look at it from both sides, to protect both interests as much as possible. They have a right to make profit on their work, and we a right to have what we buy act as we are promised (not the way we might want, but the way we are told it will work). It will lose some people, yes, but it could save thousands by delaying the pirates a few days and getting more just to buy it to have it right away.



On that note, I am temptedto pirate Dragon Age Ultimate I think. Just bought it the other day for all the content and none of it works because of the way EA made the Services epic failure (to the point EA reps don't know how to fix it). But at least I paid for it before hand, so they have their money and I will get my game, just not a good way to do it.



Oh, and I do honestly welcome anyone who could come up with a good idea on how to protect a game from pirates enough that a company can make money, without messing with the customers to much. And please, none of this "More people would buy it without any protection than with DRM" as we know this is a lie. After all, look at how many tens of thousands still pirate music, and how many did as soon as Napster was originally released. Yeah, lack of DRM really encourages the average teen to buy something when easily gotten for free.

[philbo1965uk]

So true Jezza...It's all the Americans fault they are so gullible.Every TV break they get bombarded with adverts right out of Starship troopers.



"Hi I'm Josh a self employed mechanical engineer earning over $50k a year but ...STOP ! do you want a life...join the Military like I did and become a Marine ! "

[Elsariel]

philbo1965uk wrote...

So true Jezza...It's all the Americans fault they are so gullible.Every TV break they get bombarded with adverts right out of Starship troopers.

"Hi I'm Josh a self employed mechanical engineer earning over $50k a year but ...STOP ! do you want a life...join the Military like I did and become a Marine ! "

Wait, what?  What do US Military advertisments on tv have to do with DRM in video games?

[Synagas]

Think he is trying to poke fun at me. All I was pointing out is that there are plenty of people out there who play these games that don't have reliable internet connection all the time, if ever. He just did a very poor job of iterating what he was thinking.



Than again, I might be wrong about that, which only proves my point.



Anyways, I don't like DRM, and don't agree with most current practices, hence why I asked if anyone had a better idea of how to work it.

[Naitaka]

The amount of naivete here is rather amusing, I thought it obvious that DRM now-a-day is meant to discourage the second-hand game market more than anything else. Stopping piracy is just an excuse for publishers to by-pass the first sale doctrine and making reselling game all the more difficult for consumers.

[Big Mabels Diet-Plan]

Naitaka wrote...

The amount of naivete here is rather amusing, I thought it obvious that DRM now-a-day is meant to discourage the second-hand game market more than anything else. Stopping piracy is just an excuse for publishers to by-pass the first sale doctrine and making reselling game all the more difficult for consumers.

Which, though perhaps another subject, is hugely obnoxious and ethically wrong in it's own right.
Show me any other industry that has the chutzpah and contemot for it's customers that employs such bully boy tactics.
Imagine buying a new Ford and it has some retarded feature that prevents you from ever reselling it, or a dvd or book or, well anything really.

[philbo1965uk]

Synagas wrote...

Overall, I agree with the concept of DRM. A company has a right to make money off a product they worked to make and are selling, and pirates are only causing problems. If there is no DRM, right after the game comes out, a large portion of the community would simply download the hacked version and play that. People would still buy it, but unfortunately, reality is, not as many as we would like to believe, and not enough to keep a company like EA afloat.

The problem comes down to is how does a company manage protection of their software while also giving the greatest opportunity to the majority of its customers. EA is trying, and I doubt anyone here would have a better solution. [...]

.

Sorry but arguments from ignorance won't do.

Of course any business has the right to protect their software.Which is why we have copyright laws.We can see how DRM is advantageous to them  but it is a gross infringement of consumers rights.

It may be legal in the short term..but it will be addressed eventually.
At the moment they are using it as an excuse to counter Piracy ..yet its so transparent it isn't affecting Piracy in the slightest.You see the lost sales argument doesn't hold up to scrutinee.We have endured increasingly intrusive DRM over the years and it's had zero impact on Piracy.Piracy has remained pretty constant at approx 20% over the last decade .


Look at it realistically with this example:

EA publish 25 million units of DeadlyDuke MP (standalone)....and sell the lot and make 1.5 billion profit.However when they check the online player stats they see 30 million are playing (5 million ghosts)....how much have they lost ???

EA publish 25 million units of DeadlyDuke MP (standalone) ..and release tools....a community springs up compiling maps , new levels  and appear to be enjoying themselves over several years at no extra cost.
EA see this and make no further revenue from the game...they  develop mappacks but only manage to sell 5,000 units..hmmm.

NOW...would you recommend to them they chase ghosts......or concentrate efforts on manipulating the genuine customer.?

Hello DRM...Retain toolsets,lock the game down to remove any custom content...shorten game length by removing overall content. ....Hello DLC.
They decide when and for how long you play your purchase....poor pick up for DeadlyDuke2  no problem close the Deadlyduke MP servers off...sorry this title is no longer supported...but please do buy DeadlyDuke2  order now for a bonus Gun .

No my friend...DRM is shipped with the product because you allow them to get away with it.

Let me ask you this...you want the latest seinheiser headsets priced $300...but they introduce a nifty bit of software into the driver that phones home everytime you use them...if you are heard swearing through the mic..Seinheiser sends data to the headset Bios and terminates the use of the mic permanently...would you still want to buy them ?

Gamers are not filthy little pirates the vast majority (80%) by far are honest and DRM is an infringment of their rights.

If you are so passionate about assisting EA against Piracy..ask them to invest some of those profits on better encryption of the software so that the key cannot be emulated.While there at it invest in better anti-cheat methods too....I don't see them overly concerned about cheating do you ?

[philbo1965uk]

Naitaka wrote...

The amount of naivete here is rather amusing, I thought it obvious that DRM now-a-day is meant to discourage the second-hand game market more than anything else. Stopping piracy is just an excuse for publishers to by-pass the first sale doctrine and making reselling game all the more difficult for consumers.

That's retailer driven...but relevant.

EA don't make any money from the constant circulation of 2nd hand copies.

There is a very real effort to consolize the PC platform....when they can get around the problems you can be sure they will focus on marketing it.Consoles atm offer the greatest revenue..but they are an inherently flawed system,limited by the hardware.They are actually holding the industry back and unless microsoft want to ship a new console every 2-3 years you can be assured once they have our platform locked down tighter than a Nuns....it will be dx12 mega realistic fun

Modifié par philbo1965uk, 04 février 2011 - 05:05 .

[ejoslin]

JigPig wrote...

MDarwin wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

MDarwin wrote...

I once left my comp on. Boy was I unkucky on that night. Since than, if I don't wanna use the net, I switch the modem off.

What kind of unlucky are we talking about here, anyway?

Well, it was a damn logger/spam program which got in. My machine run with a lot of slag, programs just didn't "fire up". And stupid Norton, didn't recognized any of it. So I fdisked my machine and crossed my fingers on re-installing everything.

Just all save stuff I done for my NWN mods and my 3d programs was gone. Back than I had only 1 comp. Now I got 2. Just in case. Plus, whatever else I lost on that machine. 

No, really, just stop.

The sheer amount of your ignorance on that entire subject is just horrifying.

Leaving your PC idle, connected to the internet, will not allow "damn logger/spam program(s)" to mysteriously weasel their way into your PC. It isn't a damned flood gate.

Hmmmm, on older operating systems, if you had file/printer sharing open and didn't have a firewall, it could happen.  In fact, this is why you want a firewall though modern operating systems do have far more security regarding installing programs remotely.

Edit: To stay on topic, I did cancel my preorder due to this DRM.  I hope they do take the phone-home element out; I've already decided just to buy the steam version when I'm actually going to buy.  I'm not sure I'm even going to buy DLCs because of all the problems I had with DAO DLCs with them becoming unauthenticated then reauthenticating and becoming both unusable and losing gear that was in the treasure chest.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 février 2011 - 05:16 .

[ejoslin]

Synagas wrote...

The problem comes down to is how does a company manage protection of their software while also giving the greatest opportunity to the majority of its customers. EA is trying, and I doubt anyone here would have a better solution. CD check? Try a mounted image, and bam, looks real to the system and easy as hell to pirate.

It really doesn't work that way.  The big issue with disk checks, as a matter of fact, is the software imbedded in it that prevents that from happening.  People do not like SecuRom, but my big issue is if things don't uninstall cleanly.  Have whatever DRM used in the game uninstall cleanly, it's no issue.

if you don't believe me, try this...  Make a "perfect copy" of any xbox 360 game and try to put it in an unmodded xbox 360.  Or try mounting an image of any game put out within the past few years that uses only disk checks and see what happens.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 février 2011 - 05:23 .

[philbo1965uk]

Firewalls are basically to hide you online and stop people from gaining entry to your system...AV is to counter spyware,malware.



Your firewall will not prevent your system from being infected by trojans,loggers etc

[philbo1965uk]

ejoslin wrote...

 To stay on topic, I did cancel my preorder due to this DRM.  I hope they do take the phone-home element out; I've already decided just to buy the steam version when I'm actually going to buy.  I'm not sure I'm even going to buy DLCs because of all the problems I had with DAO DLCs with them becoming unauthenticated then reauthenticating and becoming both unusable and losing gear that was in the treasure chest.

If thats the extent of your objection then  I would recommend you buy it.....Steam is the king of DRM.

[ejoslin]

philbo1965uk wrote...

Firewalls are basically to hide you online and stop people from gaining entry to your system...AV is to counter spyware,malware.

Your firewall will not prevent your system from being infected by trojans,loggers etc

I know this, I never said otherwise.  What i did say was that the scenario the person I quoted talked about was possible on older operating systems if he had file/printer sharing enabled and didn't have a firewall.  Firewalls do nothing if the order to install the whatever comes from your system to begin with.  Too many people were saying it wasn't possible -- but since he used /fdisk I got the feeling it was an older operating system this happened to.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[ejoslin]

philbo1965uk wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

 To stay on topic, I did cancel my preorder due to this DRM.  I hope they do take the phone-home element out; I've already decided just to buy the steam version when I'm actually going to buy.  I'm not sure I'm even going to buy DLCs because of all the problems I had with DAO DLCs with them becoming unauthenticated then reauthenticating and becoming both unusable and losing gear that was in the treasure chest.

If thats the extent of your objection then  I would recommend you buy it.....Steam is the king of DRM.

I can live with Steam -- it does not require me being on line and phoning home.  As it is, I can wait to see if it's a game I'll love or a game I'll like, and if it's the latter, I'll wait until the prices comes down.  The "must have it NOW" feeling was pretty much killed by this whole controversy for me.

[LadyKarrakaz]

Sadly, mot buyers will be unaware of the DRM until they have already bought and installed the game. It's rarely mentioned on Game boxes.

[philbo1965uk]

Then you are wrong..



However....but not by as much as others think...if your router is unprotected(most are firewalled and are Strict by default) then you could get your system hacked



Firewalls give you anonimity...meaning your machine isn't noticed on the network therefore no system to ping.



The culprit for your system being infected was Norton .....believe me when I tell you that you can leave your computer switched on 24/7 and remain protected.

[Elsariel]

Purple Lady wrote...

Sadly, mot buyers will be unaware of the DRM until they have already bought and installed the game. It's rarely mentioned on Game boxes.

Well, the box should say "internet connection required" at least....

[philbo1965uk]

ejoslin wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

 To stay on topic, I did cancel my preorder due to this DRM.  I hope they do take the phone-home element out; I've already decided just to buy the steam version when I'm actually going to buy.  I'm not sure I'm even going to buy DLCs because of all the problems I had with DAO DLCs with them becoming unauthenticated then reauthenticating and becoming both unusable and losing gear that was in the treasure chest.

If thats the extent of your objection then  I would recommend you buy it.....Steam is the king of DRM.

I can live with Steam -- it does not require me being on line and phoning home.  

Aw bless you

Unfortunately thats what it does

[philbo1965uk]

Elsariel wrote...

Purple Lady wrote...

Sadly, mot buyers will be unaware of the DRM until they have already bought and installed the game. It's rarely mentioned on Game boxes.

Well, the box should say "internet connection required" at least....

Inadequate....as if you buy a MP game you already appreciate that.

[mousestalker]

If you really want to be protected from viruses and such, do what I did. Remove Windows, install Linux and run your games through WINE.

Safe, secure and if you ever need software, someone somewhere has written something to do what you need and it's free.

/smug :innocent:

Modifié par mousestalker, 04 février 2011 - 05:41 .

[philbo1965uk]

By the way...I have the ultimate solution but how does one go about getting it out there to software industry and making a few shillings out of it

[StrikeQ]

Synagas wrote...

Overall, I agree with the concept of DRM. A company has a right to make money off a product they worked to make and are selling, and pirates are only causing problems....

Make games worth buying and sell for a better price (none of this $60+ stuff) would do more for sales than any type of DRM. Too many games now a day are full of bugs, and lack in content. General statements, not necessarily directed at EA/Bio.


As for the Phone Home DRM, I could only think it'd have to do with adverstisement/information collection. Take GMAIL for example, see the adds while looking at your email? See how they kind of relate to things you've been looking at online? Companies gather "non-personal" (Their definition) information to tailor content (Advertisements) to the user.

Some games have ads in game, some have it on the Launcher. No other reason to have a phone home system unless it's gathering some type of information from you.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Synagas wrote...

Overall, I agree with the concept of DRM. A company has a right to make money off a product they worked to make and are selling, and pirates are only causing problems. If there is no DRM, right after the game comes out, a large portion of the community would simply download the hacked version and play that. I know there are many here who would still buy it, but unfortunately, reality is, not as many as we would like to believe, and not enough to keep a company like EA afloat.

This is what media companies want you to think.

The truth is, there is little to no reliable evidence linking copy protection, DRM, authentication, etc, to higher sales or lower "piracy".

It's really about control. 

See also, RIAA and MPAA.  They aren't fighting tooth and nail to stop "illegal copies", or to protect the rights of the creative talent -- they're fighting tooth and nail to make sure that their constituent companies remain the gatekeepers and maintain their lucrative strangleholds, in an era in which new technology has already made them utterly obsolete.

[CitizenThom]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Sounds awesome to me Chris. It's the ideal balance of a modern copy protection.

If you do not have an internet connection nowadays, at least every few days, you should not be playing video games.

Period.

...and seriously guys. EA is the biggest or second-biggest publisher, saying that it will no longer exist is true...in a far, far away future. I don't think that my copy of DA II will be compatible with my virtual reality device then

Recent history has proven that even the biggest companies can disappear. Unless the Secratary of the Treasury used to work with EA...then yes, EA will never fade from existence. But I don't foresee anybody working at EA getting nominated to the position (or having an interest in being nominated).

Copy protection is all good and fine, but it should have some sort of expire date in order to negate future events having an impact on anyone's ability to play a game that they in fact purchased. Sure, check every few days that my copy of the game is legitimate, but three years from now, do you still need to be verifying every three days that my copy of the game is legitimate? I don't think so.