1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Pedonecrophile]

Hmmm, chantry on one side, and Desire Demons on the other...let me think...I guess I still prefer Demons.

[GodWood]

My Human Noble male believed in the maker, respected the chantry but wouldn't really call himself the religious type (he defiled the ashes to avoid fighting the dragon)
My female city elf was a devout Andrastian.
My Dwarf noble thought it was a load of nug sh*t and stuck with his traditional dwarven beliefs (although he did warm up to the idea of incorporating some Qun in there)

My opinion? I have nothing against them.
They're not sexist, they're not homophobic, their beliefs are open to any race, they help the needy and they keep the mages in check.

EDIT: And after reading this thread I'm guessing I'm in the minority.

Modifié par GodWood, 02 février 2011 - 07:21 .

[Augustei]

To all those chantry haters.. Who do you think is worse then; The Chantry or the Order of the Flaming Rose (from The Witcher)??

[connorthedragonslayer]

I like what the chantry stands for, I hate what they do.

[Arkynomicon]

As far as organised religions go in a medieval setting the Chantry seems to be pretty good and non judgemental.

[Eclipse_9990]

XxDeonxX wrote...

To all those chantry haters.. Who do you think is worse then; The Chantry or the Order of the Flaming Rose (from The Witcher)??

Psh.. The Imperium of Man is worse(and more badass) than both of them. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Crusades(Exalted Marches).

War? What's so strange about war?

Essentially making mages their slaves.

Not relaly salves, but that is a unfortunate and bad situation.

Controls their soldiers via addiction.

To what extent and how bad it is is debatable. Most tempalrs in game seem perfectly reaonable and good people. Not to mention that they KNOW what lyrium does. The templars that do take it, take it willingly.

Inquisitors.

A title. What exactly it entails, we do not know yet.

Feels that their rights supersede Grey Wardens, and kings.

When does that happen?
If you refer to the ones that attacked Anders, everything points they went rouge.

[MorningBird]

I don't hate the Chantry, but I am weary of them and the control they try to enforce over the lives of others.  Like many religious organizations, they are neither wholly good or wholly malevolent.

On one hand, they do a lot of missionary work, and they've got enough balls to do it when there's a Blight on their tail.  The situation in Lothering is a perfect example of this.  By the time the Warden makes it into town, Lothering is completely overrun with refugees.  The Templars and Chantry folk know the Darkspawn horde is heading their way, but they refuse to abandon Lothering so long as there are people in need.  It is assumed that the Revered Mother and Templars die defending it.

They don't just provide for Andrastians either.  You may recall that the Chasined Barbarians also escaped North out of the Korcari Wilds to Lothering, and were not discriminated against by the Chantry (the villagers, on the other hand...)  A band of Chasined were even accused of robbery by a merchant, but the templar simply brushed the accusation aside, claiming they had more important concerns than finger-wagging.

And let's not forget Loghain who--upon quitting the field at Ostegar--commenced a smear campaign against the remaining Grey Warden's in Ferelden.  Templars may serve the Chantry and the Maker, but they're still local to Ferelden, loyal to their king and country.  Ser Bryant, the Templar Commander of Lothering, has been told that the Wardens are traitors, but helps them regardless.  So does the Revered Mother if you request that she relinquish Sten.  While this has nothing to do with the Chantry belief system, it's a good way to judge character.  Clearly not every Andrastian is so rigid in their beliefs that they can't think for themselves or the greater good of their country and people.

From this, you can pretty much conclude that the area where people draw sides is on the subject of mages and their treatment/persecution by the Chantry and Templars.

Through our Wardens, we know firsthand that not every Apostate is destined to become a demon possessed nightmare of death and suffering.  A Dalish Warden has their Keeper and Keeper's First for examples of this, and a non-Dalish Warden can look to Morrigan.  A mage Warden also knows that the Chantry's system of control is not fool proof--such is the case with Jowan, who was pushed to extreme measures and plans of escape because he felt threatened by the Templars.  First because he'd heard rumors that they were planning to make him Tranquil, and later because they threatened Lily.

Regardless, I don't completely disagree with the Chantry's perspective that mages need to be monitored.  Bad people do exist, and if they're bad people with magic, well, that's just worse.

What I find disagreeable is their treatment of mages who do comply with their imprisonment.  They allow themselves to be locked in a tower.  They accept tutelage to better control their powers.  They put their lives at risk and undergo the Harrowing.  Yet they are still treated like criminals waiting to happen, even after proving their commitment to staying on the straight an narrow.

This system seems flawed to me, and I would support its change.

Modifié par MorningBird, 02 février 2011 - 09:18 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Crusades(Exalted Marches).

1)War? What's so strange about war?

Essentially making mages their slaves.

2)Not relaly salves, but that is a unfortunate and bad situation.

Controls their soldiers via addiction.

3)To what extent and how bad it is is debatable. Most tempalrs in game seem perfectly reaonable and good people. Not to mention that they KNOW what lyrium does. The templars that do take it, take it willingly.

Inquisitors.

4)A title. What exactly it entails, we do not know yet.

Feels that their rights supersede Grey Wardens, and kings.

5)When does that happen?
If you refer to the ones that attacked Anders, everything points they went rouge.

1) They attacked their own allies(The Dalish) just because they wouldn't worship their god, and effectively had a large role in making Elves second class citizens. 

2) Thats why I said "essentially".

3) The Templars take it willingly because their already addicted dude. Have you seen what happens when Templars don't get their lyrium? Its a pitiful sight. 

4) In one of the newest blogs they mention the Seekers(Inquisitors) in the early days of the chantry went around spreading fear, killing anyone who didn't believe in their faith "Heretics", Apostates, and generally enforcing their rule.

5) I refer to two occasions. First with Anders, and second with the Revered Mother in Lothering. After I mentioned to her that I was a Grey Warden, and tried to conscript Sten. She's essentially saying that "your grey warden rules don't having any meaning here". Uppity old hag... I'm glad I destroyed Andraste's ashes. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[Augustei]

No, the elves were not their allies. And their is no evidence that the chantry was in the wrong except for bias evidence given by the Dalish..
The Chantry also gives bias evidence against the dalish. For all we know, the attack upon the dales was completely justified.. However due to lack of real evidence it cannot be justified.. But it cannot be condemned.. Until furthur evidence can be gathered and given to us in future games or novels this point will not be valid

In fact, all of their Exalted Marches cannot be condemned except the ones against Tevinter really.
The ones against the Qunari are definitly Justified as they were invading their lands and forcing members of the chantry to convert or work the salt mines... think it was salt mines. Some mines anyway

And their Exalted March against the dales like I said, cannot be condemned nor Justified due to lack of non bias evidence

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 02 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Morrigan is an apostate, not a maleficar.

In Witch Hunt, the Chantry puts a bounty on her head because they suspect she's a blood mage (the codex for the Orlesian Warden). Yes, without proof of any kind, they're going to ask for people to hunt her down and murder her because they merely think she could be a blood mage.

My Morrigan is always a blood mage. LOL.  Not that it matters to the story except in Awakening with Anders (if you make him a Blood Mage, there is a extra cutscene option where you say "But you are a blood mage" and he's like "Yeah, I am now... but they don't know that for sure").  Always annoyed me I could make Wynne a blood mage, yet she'd continue to be all preachy against them because the game didn't take her being a blood mage into account.

[Eclipse_9990]

XxDeonxX wrote...

No, the elves were not their allies. And their is no evidence that the chantry was in the wrong except for bias evidence given by the Dalish..
The Chantry also gives bias evidence against the dalish. For all we know, the attack upon the dales was completely justified.. However due to lack of real evidence it cannot be justified.. But it cannot be condemned.. Until furthur evidence can be gathered and given to us in future games or novels this point will not be valid

In fact, all of their Exalted Marches cannot be condemned except the ones against Tevinter really.
The ones against the Qunari are definitly Justified as they were invading their lands and forcing members of the chantry to convert or work the salt mines... think it was salt mines. Some mines anyway

And their Exalted March against the dales like I said, cannot be condemned nor Justified due to lack of non bias evidence

Dude.. Talk to the two preists in Denerim arguing about food, and ask them about the chant of light. They explicitly mention that the elves under Shartan were allied with Andraste against the Tevinter Imperium. Hell its confirmed when you talk to Shartan's spirit at the Urn of Sacred Ashes. 

And how were the attacks on the Dales justified? The Elves had their own country, and lived normally, until some stupid Chantry missionaries started coming to "spread the chant of light". After the Elves kept denying them they started bringing Templars to "encourage" the elves to see things their way, and after that didn't work..
Boom! Exalted Marches all up in this place. 

That and the Chantry priests are so two faced. Back in Ostagar if you talk to that priest near jory, she asks you sweetly "Hello there would you like to have a blessing from the Maker?". Then I'm like "Oh. No thank you", and she responds "Then begon heathen! The fact that the Wardens would want someone such as you is forever their greatest weakness.".
Ugh. I hate her. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 février 2011 - 09:59 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Eclipse_9990 wrote...
1) They attacked their own allies(The Dalish) just because they wouldn't worship their god, and effectively had a large role in making Elves second class citizens. [/quote]

The fall of the Dales is a murky matter. According to Orlais, the Dalish didn't honor theri alliance and started a border war. This could be a lie, but then again, so could be hte Dalish version.

What we do know is that the Delish forces reached Val Royaux before an Exhalted March was called. At that point, isn't that self-defense? Wouldn't the Dalish sack the town and the Chantry in it?


[quote]
3) The Templars take it willingly because their already addicted dude. Have you seen what happens when Templars don't get their lyrium? Its a pitiful sight. [/qutoe]

They start taking it willingly.
They consider their own health a small sacrifice.


[quote]
4) In one of the newest blogs they mention the Seekers(Inquisitors) in the early days of the chantry went around spreading fear, killing anyone who didn't believe in their faith "Heretics", Apostates, and generally enforcing their rule.[/quote]

Not the exact wording used there.


[quote]
5) I refer to two occasions. First with Anders, and second with the Revered Mother in Lothering. After I mentioned to her that I was a Grey Warden, and tried to conscript Sten. She's essentially saying that "your grey warden rules don't having any meaning here". Uppity old hag... I'm glad I destroyed Andraste's ashes. [/quote]

As I said before - The Anders scenario doesn't look like it was sanctioned by the Chantry. It looked more liek a couple of templars saying "That mage killed our frinds. He makes a a mockery of us and uses the rules to escape us! Let's take matters into our own hands. If the Knight-Commander asks, we'll say he attacked first."


As for the reverend mother. I dont' see the big problem. She had bigger things to worry about with the village being overrun by refugees.
It's funny you accuse her of being uppity, when you parade around with your Grey Warden title. "I'm a Grey Warden. People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on". It sure wasn't polite of her to brush you off, but considering the situation it wasn't unexpected.

[IAmTheVoid]

The Chantry can offer a lot to Thedas- a kind of global police force and local jurisdiction, if you will. From what we've seen of Lothering and Redcliffe, Templars formed the backbone of a city/village defense. Templars are formidable warriors, and from what we saw in Fereldan, there doesn't seem much in the way of organised militia at all. Hell, in Redcliffe, it's just about four people before you get there.



Is the Chantry's policy bad? Yes. Should it die out all together? No, but it's in desperate need of reform regarding its greatest asset- its mages. We've already seen that the system doesn't work- mages begin to harbour resentment towards their oppressors, and making mages Tranquil if they aren't good enough doesn't help. Now, I don't know what the opposite solution is, I just know that this is bad in the long term for the Chantry and that it's in dire need of somebody changing the system to make it more just and long-term, rather than the short-term solutions which are slowly damning the Chantry to be swiftly destroyed not only by its mages, but by the common people and local government.



The Chantry are needed in Thedas. With the myriad amount of threats, it seems that a villages only defense are its local Templars. Just like the Catholic Church, it had its hectic 'heyday' (Inquisition, Crusades) and is now experiencing a downturn in power where it needs to accept its place amongst the human communities and begin to foster support again. Although, it does seem that the Chantry has far more power in Kirkwall and Orlais than our familiar mudpit in DA:O, so... who knows how bad the situation is?



tl;dr: Bad organisation with potential for good deeds. Needs reform.

[Eclipse_9990]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
1) They attacked their own allies(The Dalish) just because they wouldn't worship their god, and effectively had a large role in making Elves second class citizens.

The fall of the Dales is a murky matter. According to Orlais, the Dalish didn't honor theri alliance and started a border war. This could be a lie, but then again, so could be hte Dalish version.

What we do know is that the Delish forces reached Val Royaux before an Exhalted March was called. At that point, isn't that self-defense? Wouldn't the Dalish sack the town and the Chantry in it?

3) The Templars take it willingly because their already addicted dude. Have you seen what happens when Templars don't get their lyrium? Its a pitiful sight.

1)They start taking it willingly.
They consider their own health a small sacrifice.

4) In one of the newest blogs they mention the Seekers(Inquisitors) in the early days of the chantry went around spreading fear, killing anyone who didn't believe in their faith "Heretics", Apostates, and generally enforcing their rule.

2)Not the exact wording used there.

5) I refer to two occasions. First with Anders, and second with the Revered Mother in Lothering. After I mentioned to her that I was a Grey Warden, and tried to conscript Sten. She's essentially saying that "your grey warden rules don't having any meaning here". Uppity old hag... I'm glad I destroyed Andraste's ashes.

As I said before - The Anders scenario doesn't look like it was sanctioned by the Chantry. It looked more liek a couple of templars saying "That mage killed our frinds. He makes a a mockery of us and uses the rules to escape us! Let's take matters into our own hands. If the Knight-Commander asks, we'll say he attacked first."


3)As for the reverend mother. I dont' see the big problem. She had bigger things to worry about with the village being overrun by refugees.
It's funny you accuse her of being uppity, when you parade around with your Grey Warden title. "I'm a Grey Warden. People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on". It sure wasn't polite of her to brush you off, but considering the situation it wasn't unexpected.

1) They started taking it willingly because they had no choice. Alistair already knew about the addiction, and hated it. But even he mentions if Duncan hadn't recruited him he would have ended up addicted like the rest of them. When your becoming a Templar the Chantry probably doesn't even give you a choice in the matter.

Besides your acting as if all Templars choose to join out of their own will. Tons if not most of them are either orphans with no choice, or were sent away by their families. 

2) I know its not the exact words. I was paraphrasing.. 

3) All of those Chantry priest are self righteous jerks. They were in the middle of a blight, and she decided not to let Sten go, just to suit her brand of justice. Also its not just "People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on"(Though thats part of it), I had the right of conscription, My Warden is allowed to recruit even princes if he felt like it. The fact that she thought she was above that, kind of pissed me off. 

As I said they are self righteous jerks, once again in Ostagar, the priests were busy treating the Mages who only came to help like crap, ordering them around, sending them to former Templar Alistair to satisfy their own sick sense of superiority. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 02 février 2011 - 10:48 .

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Rivain is probably a bad example of mages living alongside non mages.. Their higher ups are witches that allow themselves to be possessed by Abominations.. They are slowly falling under the beliefs and ways of the Qun and soon those mages will have their tongues cut out and leashed

Actually, there's no indication of that. It's been some time since the New Exalted Marches, after all, and Rivain was the one to bring about peace between the Andrastian nations and the Qunari. Even Genitivi's recent visit to them (Rivain codex) mentioned that they have respect for their mages. Clearly, they aren't the same as the Qunari. They were influenced by the Qun, but they're the most tolerant of mages in all human society in Thedas that we're aware of. Even the latest blog entry mentions Rivain as one of the nations that doesn't imprison mages like the Andrastian Chantry does.

[MorningBird]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Rivain is probably a bad example of mages living alongside non mages.. Their higher ups are witches that allow themselves to be possessed by Abominations.. They are slowly falling under the beliefs and ways of the Qun and soon those mages will have their tongues cut out and leashed

Actually, there's no indication of that. It's been some time since the New Exalted Marches, after all, and Rivain was the one to bring about peace between the Andrastian nations and the Qunari. Even Genitivi's recent visit to them (Rivain codex) mentioned that they have respect for their mages. Clearly, they aren't the same as the Qunari. They were influenced by the Qun, but they're the most tolerant of mages in all human society in Thedas that we're aware of. Even the latest blog entry mentions Rivain as one of the nations that doesn't imprison mages like the Andrastian Chantry does.

Not to mention, abominations don't possess mages.  Demons do.  A mage, once possessed, becomes an abomination.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1) They started taking it willingly because they had no choice. Alistair already knew about the addiction, and hated it. But even he mentions if Duncan hadn't recruited him he would have ended up addicted like the rest of them. When your becoming a Templar the Chantry probably doesn't even give you a choice in the matter.

Besides your acting like most Templars choose to join out of their own will. Tons if not most of them are either orphans with no choice, or were sent away by their families.

They are raised by the Chantry, but they don't HAVE to become templars. Nobody is forcing them at gunpoint.
True, some have no idea what else to do with their lives or where to go, and some consider it their duty.

3) All of those Chantry priest are self righteous jerks. They were in the middle of a blight, and she decided not to let Sten go, just to suit her brand of justice. Also its not just "People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on"(Though thats part of it), I had the right of conscription, My Warden is allowed to recruit even princes if he felt like it. The fact that she thought she was above that, kind of pissed me off.

Right of Conscription in not some inherent right. It is a right that was given to the Grey Wardens. Something agreed upon and something that can be lost too.
As far as I can tell, the Chantry has no signed contract with the Wardens, but they in general do agree with them out of respect and to keep good relations.

Now does every single person have to agree with the contract and leap to serve with te Warden? After all, they are not the ones who agreed to anything.
So immagine you being in her shoes. You got a whole vilalge or refugees, woulded and hungry people who constantly seek your help. And the darkspawn are approaching, the village defended by only a few templars. A whole lot of worry, work and stress.
And then some guy walks in, caliming to be a Grey Warden and wanting you to free a guy (and known enemy) who murdered two entire families for no apparent reason. Like you don't have enough crap on your table and now this?
How would you react?

As you put it yourself "MY Warden has the right to conscript even princes if he felt like it". Doesn't that sound egoistical and with an air of entiltement?

Not saying her reaction was nice, only that it was completely understandable how she reacted. In her shoes, most people would react the same.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1) They attacked their own allies(The Dalish) just because they wouldn't worship their god, and effectively had a large role in making Elves second class citizens.

The fall of the Dales is a murky matter. According to Orlais, the Dalish didn't honor theri alliance and started a border war. This could be a lie, but then again, so could be hte Dalish version.

What we do know is that the Delish forces reached Val Royaux before an Exhalted March was called. At that point, isn't that self-defense? Wouldn't the Dalish sack the town and the Chantry in it?

It had nothing to do with the treaty. We're never told when the old treaties Duncan asks us to get were written. None of the codex entries make any reference to them, either. Orlais claimed the war started because the Dalish attacked Red Crossing, and the Dalish claim it started because they refused to convert to the Maker and sent in templars.

Regarding the Exalted March, it's an issue of who started it. If the Dalish were merely protecting themselves against an enemy that tried to forcibly convert them, it's in their interests to defeat the enemy so they can't be a threat to them again.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

3) The Templars take it willingly because their already addicted dude. Have you seen what happens when Templars don't get their lyrium? Its a pitiful sight.

They start taking it willingly.
They consider their own health a small sacrifice.

Alistair viewed it as a form of control, to keep the templars in their place.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

5) I refer to two occasions. First with Anders, and second with the Revered Mother in Lothering. After I mentioned to her that I was a Grey Warden, and tried to conscript Sten. She's essentially saying that "your grey warden rules don't having any meaning here". Uppity old hag... I'm glad I destroyed Andraste's ashes.

As I said before - The Anders scenario doesn't look like it was sanctioned by the Chantry. It looked more liek a couple of templars saying "That mage killed our frinds. He makes a a mockery of us and uses the rules to escape us! Let's take matters into our own hands. If the Knight-Commander asks, we'll say he attacked first."

Except we can see from the case of D'Sims, a charlatan who was pretending to be a healer and was killed for it by templars, and the Chantry putting a bounty on Morrigan for their suspicions alone in Witch Hunt because they think she's a blood mage, that templars seem to have a lot of wiggle room when it comes to killing mages. No proof? No problem, apparently.

According to the entry, even people in Thedas dispute the need for the templars and Chantry regarding the mages:

"Some are saying, however, that this needs to change. They remind the world that mages are not controlled by templars everywhere in Thedas: not among the Rivaini witches, the Dalish keepers or the Tevinter magisters… and those societies are, arguably, no worse off."

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As for the reverend mother. I dont' see the big problem. She had bigger things to worry about with the village being overrun by refugees.
It's funny you accuse her of being uppity, when you parade around with your Grey Warden title. "I'm a Grey Warden. People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on". It sure wasn't polite of her to brush you off, but considering the situation it wasn't unexpected.

How is using the Rite of Conscription - which was brought back by King Maric and kept in place by King Cailan - being "uppity?" She ignores the law by refusing it, simple as that.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 02 février 2011 - 10:51 .

[Augustei]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

No, the elves were not their allies. And their is no evidence that the chantry was in the wrong except for bias evidence given by the Dalish..
The Chantry also gives bias evidence against the dalish. For all we know, the attack upon the dales was completely justified.. However due to lack of real evidence it cannot be justified.. But it cannot be condemned.. Until furthur evidence can be gathered and given to us in future games or novels this point will not be valid

In fact, all of their Exalted Marches cannot be condemned except the ones against Tevinter really.
The ones against the Qunari are definitly Justified as they were invading their lands and forcing members of the chantry to convert or work the salt mines... think it was salt mines. Some mines anyway

And their Exalted March against the dales like I said, cannot be condemned nor Justified due to lack of non bias evidence

Dude.. Talk to the two preists in Denerim arguing about food, and ask them about the chant of light. They explicitly mention that the elves under Shartan were allied with Andraste against the Tevinter Imperium. Hell its confirmed when you talk to Shartan's spirit at the Urn of Sacred Ashes. 

And how were the attacks on the Dales justified? The Elves had their own country, and lived normally, until some stupid Chantry missionaries started coming to "spread the chant of light". After the Elves kept denying them they started bringing Templars to "encourage" the elves to see things their way, and after that didn't work..
Boom! Exalted Marches all up in this place. 

That and the Chantry priests are so two faced. Back in Ostagar if you talk to that priest near jory, she asks you sweetly "Hello there would you like to have a blessing from the Maker?". Then I'm like "Oh. No thank you", and she responds "Then begon heathen! The fact that the Wardens would want someone such as you is forever their greatest weakness.".
Ugh. I hate her. 

I never said they were justified.. I said they cannot be condemned nor Justified. There is evidence to support both sides of the war,
For example; The Exalted March wasn't declaired until the Dales had reached Val Royeux and Orlais didn't declare war until the Elves had slaughtered everyone in Red Crossing, Impaling Chantry priests and slaughtering innocents... Could most likely be propaganda.. We dont know however, IF it is true which we cannot say whether or not it is. Then it was sure as hell justifed to declare the march. Chantry records dont mention anything about templars as well by the way.. Maybe Because there really wasn't any Templars entering the Dales or maybe they are lying to support their actions.. We dont know, Both sides are inevitably telling some lies however.

Also we know that the missionaries were thrown out, possibly by sword point and were flogged. We dont know though. There is evidence to both support and condemn the chantry's actions.. All are bias therefore All dont count

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 02 février 2011 - 10:53 .

[LobselVith8]

MorningBird wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Rivain is probably a bad example of mages living alongside non mages.. Their higher ups are witches that allow themselves to be possessed by Abominations.. They are slowly falling under the beliefs and ways of the Qun and soon those mages will have their tongues cut out and leashed

Actually, there's no indication of that. It's been some time since the New Exalted Marches, after all, and Rivain was the one to bring about peace between the Andrastian nations and the Qunari. Even Genitivi's recent visit to them (Rivain codex) mentioned that they have respect for their mages. Clearly, they aren't the same as the Qunari. They were influenced by the Qun, but they're the most tolerant of mages in all human society in Thedas that we're aware of. Even the latest blog entry mentions Rivain as one of the nations that doesn't imprison mages like the Andrastian Chantry does.

Not to mention, abominations don't possess mages.  Demons do.  A mage, once possessed, becomes an abomination.

You mean like Wynne, who can be regarded as an abomination, but disputes the label because she retains her humanity? It's likely no different in Rivain.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Rivain is probably a bad example of mages living alongside non mages.. Their higher ups are witches that allow themselves to be possessed by Abominations.. They are slowly falling under the beliefs and ways of the Qun and soon those mages will have their tongues cut out and leashed

Actually, there's no indication of that. It's been some time since the New Exalted Marches, after all, and Rivain was the one to bring about peace between the Andrastian nations and the Qunari. Even Genitivi's recent visit to them (Rivain codex) mentioned that they have respect for their mages. Clearly, they aren't the same as the Qunari. They were influenced by the Qun, but they're the most tolerant of mages in all human society in Thedas that we're aware of. Even the latest blog entry mentions Rivain as one of the nations that doesn't imprison mages like the Andrastian Chantry does.

Damn, and this on top of the fact Elves like side by side with humans. Rivain sounds like a paradise. Wouldn't mind going to either Rivain or Tevinter in the next game. Would be sweet.

If I had a Rivanian charecter, he would definitly be a member of the Qun so far. Simply because seldom would the oppotunity come up

[Eclipse_9990]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1) They started taking it willingly because they had no choice. Alistair already knew about the addiction, and hated it. But even he mentions if Duncan hadn't recruited him he would have ended up addicted like the rest of them. When your becoming a Templar the Chantry probably doesn't even give you a choice in the matter.

Besides your acting like most Templars choose to join out of their own will. Tons if not most of them are either orphans with no choice, or were sent away by their families.

They are raised by the Chantry, but they don't HAVE to become templars. 1)Nobody is forcing them at gunpoint.
True, some have no idea what else to do with their lives or where to go, and some consider it their duty.

3) All of those Chantry priest are self righteous jerks. They were in the middle of a blight, and she decided not to let Sten go, just to suit her brand of justice. Also its not just "People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on"(Though thats part of it), I had the right of conscription, My Warden is allowed to recruit even princes if he felt like it. The fact that she thought she was above that, kind of pissed me off.

Right of Conscription in not some inherent right. It is a right that was given to the Grey Wardens. Something agreed upon and something that can be lost too.
As far as I can tell, the Chantry has no signed contract with the Wardens, but they in general do agree with them out of respect and to keep good relations.

1)Now does every single person have to agree with the contract and leap to serve with te Warden? After all, they are not the ones who agreed to anything.
So immagine you being in her shoes. You got a whole vilalge or refugees, woulded and hungry people who constantly seek your help. And the darkspawn are approaching, the village defended by only a few templars. A whole lot of worry, work and stress.
And then some guy walks in, caliming to be a Grey Warden and wanting you to free a guy (and known enemy) who murdered two entire families for no apparent reason. Like you don't have enough crap on your table and now this?
How would you react?

As you put it yourself "MY Warden has the right to conscript even princes if he felt like it". Doesn't that sound egoistical and with an air of entiltement?

Not saying her reaction was nice, only that it was completely understandable how she reacted. In her shoes, most people would react the same.

1)Probably because guns aren't invented yet. 
But fair enough. 

2) Okay.. I'm imagining... If I was her.. In a town thats about to be attacked by Darkspawn, that has to worry about Bandits robbing, and killing people, and a lack of supplies and food. The last thing on my mind would be to question a(handsome) Warden, with proof of who he is(The documents). I would have far most important things to worry about. 

[MorningBird]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1) They started taking it willingly because they had no choice. Alistair already knew about the addiction, and hated it. But even he mentions if Duncan hadn't recruited him he would have ended up addicted like the rest of them. When your becoming a Templar the Chantry probably doesn't even give you a choice in the matter.

Besides your acting like most Templars choose to join out of their own will. Tons if not most of them are either orphans with no choice, or were sent away by their families.

They are raised by the Chantry, but they don't HAVE to become templars. Nobody is forcing them at gunpoint.
True, some have no idea what else to do with their lives or where to go, and some consider it their duty.

Just wanted to point out, Alistair goes on to say that Templar arts can be performed without the use of Lyrium.  Templars are simply told that Lyrium makes those arts stronger.  Whether or not this is actually true is debatable.

Regardles, this, to me, implies that the Templars have a choice in how much Lyrium they consume, and are not force-fed.

Considering Alistair himself does not use Lyrium to perform Templar arts as a Grey Warden--and his own feelings on Lyrium--I would assume that he'd be one of the few who did not suffer crippling addiction, were he to remain with the Templars.

That aside, Lotion is correct.  You cannot force someone to become a Templar.  It takes intense physical and scholary training, and you must also take vows.  Vows that no one can just... demand you to take.  I get the feeling Alistair submitted to Templar training for two reasons: one, he did enjoy the peace of mind the training gave him, and two, he saw no other out... until Duncan provided him with one.

It's not the same as having a sword pointed to your throat.

3) All of those Chantry priest are self righteous jerks. They were in the middle of a blight, and she decided not to let Sten go, just to suit her brand of justice. Also its not just "People MUST respect me and worship the ground I walk on"(Though thats part of it), I had the right of conscription, My Warden is allowed to recruit even princes if he felt like it. The fact that she thought she was above that, kind of pissed me off.

Right of Conscription in not some inherent right. It is a right that was given to the Grey Wardens. Something agreed upon and something that can be lost too.

...

As you put it yourself "MY Warden has the right to conscript even princes if he felt like it". Doesn't that sound egoistical and with an air of entiltement?

It's also mentioned (I believe by Duncan, correct me if I'm wrong) that although the Warden's have the right to conscript whoever they want, it is seldom used, especially on nobility, and especially in Ferelden.

This is because the Grey Wardens were only very, very recently welcomed back (after the events of 'The Calling' by Meric), and their relationship with the people is strained at best.  One wrong move (like forcing conscriptions like you own the joint) would be a step in the wrong direction.

To assume that you can simply conscript whoever you want by virtue of you being a Grey Warden is reckless, and could lead to the Grey Wardens being chased out of the country a second time.

That being said, I'm positive only Grey Warden Commanders can envoke the right of conscription (once again, correct me if I'm wrong), and technically your PC is not the official Ferelden Commander until Awakening takes place.

Modifié par MorningBird, 02 février 2011 - 11:30 .

[GodWood]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Essentially making mages their slaves.

How are they at all slaves?
They are given free accomodation, free food and free education which is probably better than what most Fereldan peasants get.
The catch is they are to be regulated and kept under Chantry watch which is perfectly understandable when one sees the risk mages are to society (regular magic, blood-magic and demon possession)
The current system is fine, I really don't get you 'mage apologists'.