1019 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Lotion,



Either provide that DG quote or drop it. As for Ryloc, this wasn't a fly-by-night operation. There was clearly an organized effort over many months to move perhaps hundreds of mage phylacteries from one location to another. Do you think the Chantry would permit that to happen without the local cleric of Ameranthine not knowing?



PULEEZE! Like I said, if you believe that, then you believe snow is black.



Ryloc's operations has the Chantry's fingerprints all over it. The only thing that saves the local Knight Commander and Mother Superior of Amaranthing from some rightous Grey Warden Justice (and such an act IS subject to high justice) is because:



1. Anders (and you) were technically breaking and entering into Chantry property.

2. The Chantry can claim that Ryloc was acting alone and there isn't any paper to prove otherwise. However, anyone with an IQ in the double-digits knows better.



This was very much a covert Chantry/Templar Operation to bring a "rogue" mage to heel...Grey Warden or not, legal or not. The Chantry is that arrogant.



-Polaris

[Mlaar]

The great thing is when playing through the game I had no love for the chantry though I didnt hate them I chose to do the things that reflected my goals be it morally correct or not. the chantry for me was a means to an end it wasnt until I began posting on the forums that I realized how much tunnel vision players have.

I as a person already realize that the chantry has flaws infact I look forward to exposing some of them in DA2 (hopefully) I also see the need for such an institution in a world as dangerous as the one we game in and to top it off I also see the good that it enables within the lands



As A mage character I was impartial to the chantry they put me in the tower I learnt to control my powers, I passed my harrowing if duncan hadnt shown up Id likey still be studying in the confines of the tower without regret either to be found hiding in a cupboard found dead on the floor of forced by a corrupt mage to become an abonimation.



Most posters on these forums will look at the chantry with modern day values where freedom is as natrual as breathing fresh air and think well thats a terrible way they treat others infact some posters are even bringing into the topic comparisons with the germans and jews!! whoa dont even go thier.



Think of the world they live in a world rife with supersticion where the most terrible bedtime story is infact a reality lurking in the darkest reaches where even dreams can hold dangers to a magic weilders mind. now the chantry have to face this constant unseen threat the only way they can they put them in a place where they can watch over them what would you do if faced with an opponent that can you ablaze merely with a wave of their hand that can drain the life from your body with the softest of words whilst becoming healthy and reboust at your expense? would you let them live free in the land becoming an incident yet to happen.. damn that fool yokel for charging me a silver piece for that bushel of wheat heres lightning bolts in your face!! Joke or an incident waiting to happen.

You may brand it as evil to do so but if that is the case its an evil done for the betterment of the majority.

I still stand by what I say in the fact the more responsible a mage becomes the more liberties they gain, I chose an example it turned out to be a war hero sweet cant get more responsible than that a mage who has actually proved beyond a doubt he has the peoples best intrests to heart yet even then after marrige children and a home even then he still summoned a deamon and locked it in his basement!! the same deamon which given half the chance would have taken possesion of either his son or grandchild and roamed free just another incident waiting to happen. this just goes to show that even those granted such liberties can still be irresponsible, maker help us all if thier was no circle available to at least safeguard from these mishaps

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

Either provide that DG quote or drop it. As for Ryloc, this wasn't a fly-by-night operation. There was clearly an organized effort over many months to move perhaps hundreds of mage phylacteries from one location to another. Do you think the Chantry would permit that to happen without the local cleric of Ameranthine not knowing?

As I said - I don't know what the local cleric knows. I suspect she knows what Ryloc told her.
Wouldn't be the first time subordinates kept the higher-ups in the dark about something. Not only about what she is doing but what she will do.
Even if the Cleric knew that the plachyetries are beign moved, did she know for exactly what purpose? Best lies are those with a bit of truth in them.


As for the DG quote, I ain't droppign the truth just because you feel prissy.
Neither am I going to go digging now for that quote. I have better things to do.
But that quote is there. I'm harldy the only one who read it. Maybe someone recall the thread title?

Ryloc's operations has the Chantry's fingerprints all over it. The only thing that saves the local Knight Commander and Mother Superior of Amaranthing from some rightous Grey Warden Justice (and such an act IS subject to high justice) is because:

1. Anders (and you) were technically breaking and entering into Chantry property.
2. The Chantry can claim that Ryloc was acting alone and there isn't any paper to prove otherwise. However, anyone with an IQ in the double-digits knows better.

This was very much a covert Chantry/Templar Operation to bring a "rogue" mage to heel...Grey Warden or not, legal or not. The Chantry is that arrogant.

No, you are that arrognat.

Everyone with an IQ above a singel digit can cleary see you are full of BS.
No proof whatsoever. Noting but suspicions backed up by hot air.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

Either provide that DG quote or drop it. As for Ryloc, this wasn't a fly-by-night operation. There was clearly an organized effort over many months to move perhaps hundreds of mage phylacteries from one location to another. Do you think the Chantry would permit that to happen without the local cleric of Ameranthine not knowing?

PULEEZE! Like I said, if you believe that, then you believe snow is black.

Ryloc's operations has the Chantry's fingerprints all over it. The only thing that saves the local Knight Commander and Mother Superior of Amaranthing from some rightous Grey Warden Justice (and such an act IS subject to high justice) is because:

1. Anders (and you) were technically breaking and entering into Chantry property.
2. The Chantry can claim that Ryloc was acting alone and there isn't any paper to prove otherwise. However, anyone with an IQ in the double-digits knows better.

This was very much a covert Chantry/Templar Operation to bring a "rogue" mage to heel...Grey Warden or not, legal or not. The Chantry is that arrogant.

-Polaris

Why would she know about phylacteries being moved  in her region... When they wern't being moved in her region which is discovered upon doing the quest?
If they really were moving phylacteries within Amaranthine The Commander of the Grey would definitly know. Its his damn land! his scouts would report templar activity moving shipments etc. And since he doesn't know, Then the Revered mother wouldn't know. Besides the Templar overseer of Ferelden Knight Commander Greagoir doesn't seem the type to just send his templars to fight the commmander of the grey.. The guy that single handedly cleared his own tower of Abominations. He isn't that stupid or Arrogant. 

[Urazz]

Personally, I think the Chantry is corrupt. Sure there are good people in the chantry trying to do good but in game (Ser Otto, that sister in Denerim reciting the chant while hungry, etc.), I see alot more religious zealots and corrupt leaders causing problems than solving them. Then again as players we tend to run into the more corrupt parts of the chantry than good so we could be wrong about that. Either way the Chantry and the Templars have way too much power at the moment and that is basically asking them to go the way of the Catholic Church and lose that power.

[LobselVith8]

Ugh, Goodwood? I didn't realize the templars being able to murder people without evidence and on suspicion alone was something we should ignore to prop the Chantry line. I'm guessing the templars murder of the elven Magnificent D'Sims because they (wrongly) assumed he was a mage should be ignored, as well as the templars putting a bounty on Morrigan in Witch Hunt because they merely assume she's a blood mage.

Goodwood wrote...
I did get about half way through responding to your retorts before I decided it was pointless.

Because I disagreed with your pro-Chantry stance, I assume?

Goodwood wrote...
Reason? You seem unable to see the reason why the Chantry does the things that they do and when a mage does something bad you twist it so it's some how the Chantry's fault.

You mean I pointed out how the segregation of mages happened because of a nonviolent protest, and pointed out how there's no actual evidence in game or the novels that the imprisonment of mages is necessary? Especially when we read about the real reason why mages were segregated from the general populace as opposed to the claims made by the modern day templars?

Goodwood wrote...

If you can't at least acknowledge the threat that mages are than there is no point.

You mean if I can't agree with you, then there's no point. IanPolaris has already addressed at another thread (To Free Mages or Not?) about having a taskforce of mages and non-mages to deal with the threats of people abusing magic - rather than mistreating and dehumanizing mages in a prison run by a religious order that spreads anti-mage dogma throughout the continent. Their treatment of mages is likely a reason why some people dislike the Chantry.

Goodwood wrote...

I will respond to one thing though.
The Tevinter mages are the cause of the first blight, just because you don't belive in the Chantrys beliefs that doesn't mean you can simply dismiss everything they say.
Good story telling dictates there is at least some truth behind the legend.

Wrong. Anyone can lie. There's absolutely no proof that the Tevinter mages were behind the Blight. I can say that the Flying Spagetti Monster was behind the Blight, does that mean that it's true?

Goodwood wrote...

I personally believe that there's two potential theorys of how the darkspawn were created.
a) The Chantry's story is basically true in the sense that The Tevinter mages usurped the black city, got corrupted, became the first darkspawn, yadayadayada.
or
Basically the same thing minus all the Maker and heaven stuff.

You're welcome to your opinion, but that's all it is. You can't use opinion as fact.

Goodwood wrote...

So essentially the powerful Tevinter mages (since they had no regulations on what magics could and could not be used) accidently (through powerful dark magics) created the darkspawn.

Speculation is not fact.

Goodwood wrote...

Oh, and just because the dwarves don't believe the Chantry story that doesn't mean the Tevinter Blood mages are suddenly innoccent as a bunny.
The two dwarven beliefs for the origin of the darkspawn are: They sprung up one day OR the humans are the reason for their existence

I never claimed they were innocent. They did horrible things to the elves of Arlathan, but that doesn't mean they were responsible for the Blight. Considering that the dwarves who fight them every day of their lives don't believe the Chantry's version, it's clearly not as universially believed as you're trying to make it out to be.

[Augustei]

Lol that chantry woman that is hungry in Denerim is corrupt. Isn't she involved with that terrorist. K or D or w/e his name was

[Augustei]

Although there is no evidence that the Tevinter mages are behind the blight. It is the most likely scenario
Also the chantrys speculation of things has seemingly proven true in some areas. Like how the old gods were cast down by the maker into the underground... Although the maker part mighten be true. There certainly is Old gods underground.
Sure you could say.. The dwarves discovered em and reported on it.. But keep in mind it takes years for the darkspawn to tunnel to these things so theres no way they could have seen the dragon prior to being awake.. And if it was awake. Then those dwarves would be dead for sure

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 février 2011 - 02:17 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

Mages within the Circle are permitted to marry, but it's impractical with outsiders and they also must get permission from the Chantry (so it might be considered a reward for good behavior). Even so, the culture within the typical Circle of Magi tends to make mages unwilling to marry. The policy on fraternization will depend on the individual Circle-- some forbid it, while others do not, though in either case it still occurs. Considering mages live outside normal culture, they also consider themselves free of cultural conventions (especially those who were raised in a Circle from a young age) and thus tend to be quite liberal in their views.

Whew! Okay-- verbose answer of the day. Time for coffee. [/quote]

As DG mentioned, it depends on the Circle. And regarding Grey Warden mages:

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry. [/quote]

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?[/quote]

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.[/quote]

Mages are too dangerous to raise their own children - unless, of course, they're Grey Wardens.


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm saying that it doesn't really work.
Look at Germany after WW1. You cannot really prevent the "enemy coutnry" from re-gaining her strength in a few years unless you destroy it UTTERLY.
And since to do that you effectively have to becoem an invader and mass murderer, it's just stupid.

Of course, when attacked, you ALWAYS have the right to defened yourself, but some push that right beyond it's limits. Take for example Iraq or Afghanistan. Heck, the history is full of such examples.

Weather it's Orlais destroying the Dales or the Dalish destroying Orlais - it simply isn't justified either way. [/quote]
The whole point of invading Orlais was to destroy it utterly - to commander control of an enemy nation that they claimed had sent in templars to force conversion to the Chantry. The alternative to the Dalish defending themselves from an aggressor trying to force them to become thralls of the Chantry (from their POV, according to the Dales codex) then I see no reason why they should be condemned for trying to deconstruct the Chantry's base of power by commandering control of the nation that's trying to force their conversion through templars (Dalish codex).
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
For the n(th) time. Reading comprehension.
Yes, the lack of evidence agasint D'Sim bothers me (about Morrigan we don't know). But that is not the issue. The question I am raising is if D'Sims was struck down because he resisted or not. Did he pull a knife on the Templars when they appraoched? We don't know that.
Would the tempalrs have simply taken him to the Circle if he didn't resist? Or were the tamplrs dicks that would have killed him anyway? Did he even resist?
We know they were after him because they thought he was a mage. We lack confirmation that they killed him for that and that reason alone. [/quote]
But we know that the templars put out a bounty on Morrigan in Witch Hunt because they suspect she's a blood mage, yet we're never seen evidence of any blood magic save an ancient ritual that predates the Circle and can be considered blood magic by some - hardly the same as Jowan's blood magic performances. Unless some templar was hiding under the bed when this act of carnal contact was discussed, I see no reason why the Chantry or the templars would assume that Morrigan is a blood mage, especially when she performs no magical feats that are similiar to blood magic in any fashion.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't recall if he was at that point officialy a templar. Since Grey Wardens are reluctant to use the right, maybe the Reverend Mother thought she could pressure him into chosing someone else? [/quote]
The Grand Cleric didn't want to let Alistair go, and Duncan forced the issue. Clearly, the Chantry is supposed to recognize the Rite of Conscription. That's why Gaider said that the mages of the GWs are freed no longer under the Chantry like the Circle mages are.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
A matter of oppinion. The VO can call it what it wants. Duncans oppinion.

I played trough the game origin several times and talked ot everyone I could. Didn't look like a bad place to live.
You can't go out whenever you want? Big deal. Peopel are generally restriced in their movements and actions in real life too..altough in different ways. [/quote]
Except it's not Duncan's POV. It's the same voice actor narrating the world of DA and introducing us to the Circle Tower of Ferelden. His reference to it as a prison is an accurate term. The Magi protagonist can even tell Cullen that he thought all templars enjoyed killing mages, which Cullen admits some do - discussing it with glee. We could ask Aenirin if it was a bad place to live since he ran away or when the templars shoved a sword of mercy into him, or the mages of Uldred's rebellion who were willing to risk their lives for the opportunity of freedom. Clearly, not everyone shares your views about the Chantry and the templars.
You might want to ask Aenirin or Jowan if it was a bad place to live. Jowan didn't have a right to contest what was going to be done to him (which would be an issue if he was innocent and if the evidence currently against a guilty Jowan was flimpsy) and the First Enchanter didn't see any of it (which means that a Knight-Commander like Cullen could simply make claims and get mages killed or given lobotomies based on his word alone). Even Wynne, who has no problem getting a blood mage Warden killed because of blood magic, didn't see any evidence that Aenirin was a maleficar. Getting killed on speculation alone is a big deal to me. This hardly seems like the ideal place that you think it is.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Wroing. They can have relationships, altouhg it is frowned upon depending on the Circle.
True, they cannot raise their children, since demons seem to LOVE to exploit that link. (from DG's post on that isue, it seems that mages were allowed to raise their children before, but it created a lot of problems)
Also, you got no real proof templars can legaly act wihout evidence. [/quote]
Wrong, Lotion. Gaider already stated in some Circles mages can't have relationships or marry. Did you forget the templars and chastity thread, already?
They put out a bounty on Morrigan with no evidence that she's a blood mage, so feel free to provide me wrong. You're welcome to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't see why I should, especially when coupled with the case of D'Sims and the incident with Aenirin, who was never proven to be a blood mage (even Chantry apologist Wynne doesn't seem to think so, and he is currently a healer among the Dalish).
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Incorrect. You cannot use that as a rule. The chant iself sez nothing about that. The acts of a priest or two are hardly indicative of a general stance of the Chantry.

This happens in RL too b.t.w. - I know a priest who downright hates jews. Deos that mean the Catholic Church hates jews? [/quote]
I can use that - it's in the game. If the Reverand Mother of Redcliffe acknowledges the ill treatment of mages and promises not to raise a mob against you, and members of the Andrastian Chantry clearly show distain, mistrust, and refer to mages as "cursed" and blame them for the Blights (of which there's no evidence to support this "tale") then I see no reason why we shouldn't point out their anti-mage dogma as the main factor in why mages are hated and feared in the Andrastian societies, while they are't among the Dalish, the town of Haven, the clans of the Chasind, or in the nation of the Rivain.
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Did the man say that? No, he didn't. He said they acted on their own violition.
You like to argue point people don't make, do you? [/quote]
You're arguing from the assumption that the templars were justified in attacking Aenirin and D'Sims, and that they have evidence against Morrigan, despite the fact that we never see any forbidden magic performed by D'Sims, no blood magic from Morrigan, and that D'Sims wasn't even a real mage.

[Augustei]

The Grand Cleric didn't want to let Alistair go only because she didn't want to give anything to the Grey Wardens.. Alistair says this

Also Deconstructing the Chantry that supposedly tried to convert them is no small task. They would have had to utterly destroy Val Royeux.. Which is no small task in itself.. and theres still alot of Orlais left. But then destroy Neverra, The Free Marches, Antiva and The Anderfels where it had also taken root.



Sure they could have gotten Dwarven and Tevinter support but they were both weak allies to have at the time. Tevinter still utterly devistated by the first blight and same with the Dwarves,, Whereas Nevarra and the Free Marches could have unified seeing the approaching threat. Which would make them a very poweful enemy. The House of Crows in Antiva would have proved trouble.. Also at the time Rivain was under chantry control and they knew of no alternative so they would have supported them. And The Anderfels was decently strong at the time

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

Either provide that DG quote or drop it. As for Ryloc, this wasn't a fly-by-night operation. There was clearly an organized effort over many months to move perhaps hundreds of mage phylacteries from one location to another. Do you think the Chantry would permit that to happen without the local cleric of Ameranthine not knowing?

PULEEZE! Like I said, if you believe that, then you believe snow is black.

Ryloc's operations has the Chantry's fingerprints all over it. The only thing that saves the local Knight Commander and Mother Superior of Amaranthing from some rightous Grey Warden Justice (and such an act IS subject to high justice) is because:

1. Anders (and you) were technically breaking and entering into Chantry property.
2. The Chantry can claim that Ryloc was acting alone and there isn't any paper to prove otherwise. However, anyone with an IQ in the double-digits knows better.

This was very much a covert Chantry/Templar Operation to bring a "rogue" mage to heel...Grey Warden or not, legal or not. The Chantry is that arrogant.

-Polaris

Why would she know about phylacteries being moved  in her region... When they wern't being moved in her region which is discovered upon doing the quest?
If they really were moving phylacteries within Amaranthine The Commander of the Grey would definitly know. Its his damn land! his scouts would report templar activity moving shipments etc. And since he doesn't know, Then the Revered mother wouldn't know. Besides the Templar overseer of Ferelden Knight Commander Greagoir doesn't seem the type to just send his templars to fight the commmander of the grey.. The guy that single handedly cleared his own tower of Abominations. He isn't that stupid or Arrogant. 

The Chantry and templars are willing to put out a bounty on Morrigan despite her association with the Grey Wardens, so it wouldn't surprise. Also, the nobility has no say when it comes to the Circle of Magi or the mages:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

[blothulfur]

The size of this thread and the passion with which people are arguing suggests that though not universally liked the chantry is seen as an important and strong part of Thedas, and whether it will be an antagonist or an ally is probably going to be decided by our players whether Hawke or some future protaganist.

One thing i've noted before and will note again is that the role of women in the chantry is a seemingly positive one compared to real life institutions who demonised the fairer sex openly, no doubt due to the gender of their prophet.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

Either provide that DG quote or drop it. As for Ryloc, this wasn't a fly-by-night operation. There was clearly an organized effort over many months to move perhaps hundreds of mage phylacteries from one location to another. Do you think the Chantry would permit that to happen without the local cleric of Ameranthine not knowing?

PULEEZE! Like I said, if you believe that, then you believe snow is black.

Ryloc's operations has the Chantry's fingerprints all over it. The only thing that saves the local Knight Commander and Mother Superior of Amaranthing from some rightous Grey Warden Justice (and such an act IS subject to high justice) is because:

1. Anders (and you) were technically breaking and entering into Chantry property.
2. The Chantry can claim that Ryloc was acting alone and there isn't any paper to prove otherwise. However, anyone with an IQ in the double-digits knows better.

This was very much a covert Chantry/Templar Operation to bring a "rogue" mage to heel...Grey Warden or not, legal or not. The Chantry is that arrogant.

-Polaris

Why would she know about phylacteries being moved  in her region... When they wern't being moved in her region which is discovered upon doing the quest?
If they really were moving phylacteries within Amaranthine The Commander of the Grey would definitly know. Its his damn land! his scouts would report templar activity moving shipments etc. And since he doesn't know, Then the Revered mother wouldn't know. Besides the Templar overseer of Ferelden Knight Commander Greagoir doesn't seem the type to just send his templars to fight the commmander of the grey.. The guy that single handedly cleared his own tower of Abominations. He isn't that stupid or Arrogant. 

The Chantry and templars are willing to put out a bounty on Morrigan despite her association with the Grey Wardens, so it wouldn't surprise. Also, the nobility has no say when it comes to the Circle of Magi or the mages:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

Yeah but it is most likely a misunderstanding on Varel or Garahels
part when giving this message to the Warden commander. When they told
him Blood mage.. They actually meant to say Maleficar, of which she
certainly is and the templars could certainly find out about.

and
for all we know she could be a blood mage, there is no evidence to say
she is exept perhaps the dark ritual, but thats really just second
guessing it. But there is no evidence to say she isn't either.

Also there is a big difference between being a warden and just simply associating with one. And I know they have no say, But that doesn't mean that the Warden commander couldn't find out whats going on. If the templar were moving large ammounts of cargo through his/her lands then (s)he would definitly know about it. He has soldiers and scouts throughout the area

[AlexXIV]

I am always thinking that the Tevinter actually didn't try to 'usurp heaven'. I rather think that they tried to either free or over throw the Old Gods. That's why they entered the Fade. The result of it were the Archdemons mostly accompanied by dragon thralls (as for example in the battle of denerim at drakon castle). It seems more that these dragons who became Archdemons are victims. And so are other dragons who get too close to the Blight. I also personally think that Flemeth is a descendant of a dragon if not one herself. And that her goal is to lift the 'curse' that the Blight is. Just the quesion if removing this curse is a good thing, since dragons were fearsome even before they became Archdemons. Maybe even more powerful than Archdemons, and if they were freed it may even be worse than the blights.

That said I think the Chantry and the belief in the Maker may be an ancient religion revived by Andraste and her followers when the religion of the old gods 'failed' as they were cursed to be darkspawns. I don't think there was any Maker involved in that. They did it with magic. So it was basically a more or less successful uprise of humankind against the Old Gods. I think the Maker if there ever was one has been gone long before Andraste and that the story that He actually spoke to Andraste is just a hoax of the Chantry to get people to believe that the Maker is still here, while he is actually ... disappeared, and nobody really knows why and where to.

So basically the Chant is just a sort of fairy tale which tries to explain what the people cannot understand. They cannot understand that the only gods they ever had contact with were powerful dragons and they have been locked somewhere and that at the attempt to either free them or take their power from them, humanity made a big mistake and cursed their gods as well as themselves. So they needed to resurrect this Maker worship to at least have a little hope in a world that could not have been darker.

Does it make the Chantry bad or evil? No. But neither does it make their teachings true. It isn't more than a feeble attempt to make sense in a history and in events they cannot understand. I think Flemeth knows alot more than any Chantry cleric, even the Divine in Orlais. She might be old enough to even be eye witness to the events that started the curse (the blights). I think it is not far fetched that she is possibly a femalre dragon who can shapeshift into a human, and not a human who can shapeshift into a dragon. Alone the name Flemeth (Flameth<-Flame) suggests it for me. And even Flemeth may not be old enough to have ever met or seen the Maker.

That said, reason why I don't especially like the Chantry is that I think their teachings are just made up stuff. It may have some justification and good influence on people etc. It may have been the sole reason why the world did not sink into chaos yet. But it still is only a (more or less) comfortable illusion forged by mortals. And I for one would rather go with the truth, ugly as it may be.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 février 2011 - 03:06 .

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but it is most likely a misunderstanding on Varel or Garahels part when giving this message to the Warden commander. When they told him Blood mage.. They actually meant to say Maleficar, of which she certainly is and the templars could certainly find out about.

Let's not fan fic explanations to give the templars reason to go after someone where none exists, okay? The devs could have said maleficar for the Orlesian Warden, but they choose blood mage instead. No evidence that she is a blood mage in DA:O, and the templars still put a bounty on her life

XxDeonxX wrote...

and for all we know she could be a blood mage, there is no evidence to say she is exept perhaps the dark ritual, but thats really just second guessing it. But there is no evidence to say she isn't either.

Except for the year we spent with her where she clearly has no issue using non-Circle magic, but never any blood magic...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Also there is a big difference between being a warden and just simply associating with one. And I know they have no say, But that doesn't mean that the Warden commander couldn't find out whats going on. If the templar were moving large ammounts of cargo through his/her lands then (s)he would definitly know about it. He has soldiers and scouts throughout the area

The Warden-Commander has no say over the Chantry or the templars, any more than the nobility or even the ruler of the nation does (just see the Gaider comment about the Magi boon for an example).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I'm saying that it doesn't really work.
Look at Germany after WW1. You cannot really prevent the "enemy coutnry" from re-gaining her strength in a few years unless you destroy it UTTERLY.
And since to do that you effectively have to becoem an invader and mass murderer, it's just stupid.

Of course, when attacked, you ALWAYS have the right to defened yourself, but some push that right beyond it's limits. Take for example Iraq or Afghanistan. Heck, the history is full of such examples.

Weather it's Orlais destroying the Dales or the Dalish destroying Orlais - it simply isn't justified either way.

The whole point of invading Orlais was to destroy it utterly - to commander control of an enemy nation that they claimed had sent in templars to force conversion to the Chantry. The alternative to the Dalish defending themselves from an aggressor trying to force them to become thralls of the Chantry (from their POV, according to the Dales codex) then I see no reason why they should be condemned for trying to deconstruct the Chantry's base of power by commandering control of the nation that's trying to force their conversion through templars (Dalish codex).

Oh..so you condemn Orlais for destroying the Dales, but it's OK if the Dales destroy Orlais?
Hypocrite. How can you condone destruction of entire nations?
That is both morally and logicly out of the question.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
For the n(th) time. Reading comprehension.
Yes, the lack of evidence agasint D'Sim bothers me (about Morrigan we don't know). But that is not the issue. The question I am raising is if D'Sims was struck down because he resisted or not. Did he pull a knife on the Templars when they appraoched? We don't know that.
Would the tempalrs have simply taken him to the Circle if he didn't resist? Or were the tamplrs dicks that would have killed him anyway? Did he even resist?
We know they were after him because they thought he was a mage. We lack confirmation that they killed him for that and that reason alone.

But we know that the templars put out a bounty on Morrigan in Witch Hunt because they suspect she's a blood mage, yet we're never seen evidence of any blood magic save an ancient ritual that predates the Circle and can be considered blood magic by some - hardly the same as Jowan's blood magic performances. Unless some templar was hiding under the bed when this act of carnal contact was discussed, I see no reason why the Chantry or the templars would assume that Morrigan is a blood mage, especially when she performs no magical feats that are similiar to blood magic in any fashion.

It is not neccesary for you to see any evidence.
You cannot simply assume that because you don't seee anything, that it doesn't exist. Morrigans was away two years. Who knows what she did by that time?
We didn't get to see Gregoirs evidence on Jowan..does that me he didn't have it? No.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I don't recall if he was at that point officialy a templar. Since Grey Wardens are reluctant to use the right, maybe the Reverend Mother thought she could pressure him into chosing someone else?

The Grand Cleric didn't want to let Alistair go, and Duncan forced the issue. Clearly, the Chantry is supposed to recognize the Rite of Conscription. That's why Gaider said that the mages of the GWs are freed no longer under the Chantry like the Circle mages are.[/qutoe]

I'm not doubring the Chantry is recognizing their Rite on Ferelden folk...question is - under whos's jurisdiction does Allistair fall (or should I say did fall)?
You do realsie that the Grand Cleric could argue agaisnt letting Alistair even she didn't have any legal right to hold him, right? It's bluff/power play.

But either way, irrelevant.

Except it's not Duncan's POV. It's the same voice actor narrating the world of DA and introducing us to the Circle Tower of Ferelden. His reference to it as a prison is an accurate term. The Magi protagonist can even tell Cullen that he thought all templars enjoyed killing mages, which Cullen admits some do - discussing it with glee. We could ask Aenirin if it was a bad place to live since he ran away or when the templars shoved a sword of mercy into him, or the mages of Uldred's rebellion who were willing to risk their lives for the opportunity of freedom. Clearly, not everyone shares your views about the Chantry and the templars.
[/qutoe]

And not everyone shares yours. You argue definitons. So will I.
You think ti's an accurate term. I do not.


[qutoe]

Did the man say that? No, he didn't. He said they acted on their own violition.
You like to argue point people don't make, do you?

You're arguing from the assumption that the templars were justified in attacking Aenirin and D'Sims, and that they have evidence against Morrigan, despite the fact that we never see any forbidden magic performed by D'Sims, no blood magic from Morrigan, and that D'Sims wasn't even a real mage.

No. As always you seem to argue things you want, insted things that are written.

I'm asking you to prove the templars were wrong in both of those accounts.

Alos, what Morrigan did IS what the Chstnry would label as blood magic. We KNOW she is capable of it.
We don't know how much the Chatnry knows of what proof if has.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 03 février 2011 - 03:13 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

blothulfur wrote...

The size of this thread and the passion with which people are arguing suggests that though not universally liked the chantry is seen as an important and strong part of Thedas, and whether it will be an antagonist or an ally is probably going to be decided by our players whether Hawke or some future protaganist.
One thing i've noted before and will note again is that the role of women in the chantry is a seemingly positive one compared to real life institutions who demonised the fairer sex openly, no doubt due to the gender of their prophet.

HEhh...My arguing passion doesn't stem from the love of Chantry....

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Oh..so you condemn Orlais for destroying the Dales, but it's OK if the Dales destroy Orlais?
Hypocrite. How can you condone destruction of entire nations?
That is both morally and logicly out of the question.

Do you actually think you make any sense when you write? I'm curious. I think Orlais should be condemned if the assault on the Dales was over forcing the issue of elven conversion to the Chantry, but I tried to be neutral and merely explain why the Dalish would invade Orlais to disable their government and prevent future assaults by the templars (if their codex is correct about templars invading the Dales to force conversion to the Chantry, of course).

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is not neccesary for you to see any evidence.
You cannot simply assume that because you don't seee anything, that it doesn't exist. Morrigans was away two years. Who knows what she did by that time?
We didn't get to see Gregoirs evidence on Jowan..does that me he didn't have it? No.

The First Enchanter should have seen the evidence against Jowan, but didn't, and the Rite was signed anyway. If this were an anti-mage Cullen as Knight-Commander (which can happen) then innocent mages could be condemned with nothing to save them.

As for your comments on Morrigan, seems like you're fanwanking explanations for your pro-Chantry views. The reality is: no evidence, no problem. Kill them first, ask questions never.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Grand Cleric didn't want to let Alistair go, and Duncan forced the issue. Clearly, the Chantry is supposed to recognize the Rite of Conscription. That's why Gaider said that the mages of the GWs are freed no longer under the Chantry like the Circle mages are.

I'm not doubring the Chantry is recognizing their Rite on Ferelden folk...question is - under whos's jurisdiction does Allistair fall (or should I say did fall)?
You do realsie that the Grand Cleric could argue agaisnt letting Alistair even she didn't have any legal right to hold him, right? It's bluff/power play.

But either way, irrelevant.

In other words, you're ignoring the story because it doesn't fit your perspective. The Chantry clearly has to heed the Rite of Conscription - which is why mages are freed from Chantry control (as Gaider admits), and why Alistair is a Grey Warden and not a member of the Order of Templars.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except it's not Duncan's POV. It's the same voice actor narrating the world of DA and introducing us to the Circle Tower of Ferelden. His reference to it as a prison is an accurate term. The Magi protagonist can even tell Cullen that he thought all templars enjoyed killing mages, which Cullen admits some do - discussing it with glee. We could ask Aenirin if it was a bad place to live since he ran away or when the templars shoved a sword of mercy into him, or the mages of Uldred's rebellion who were willing to risk their lives for the opportunity of freedom. Clearly, not everyone shares your views about the Chantry and the templars.

And not everyone shares yours. You argue definitons. So will I.
You think ti's an accurate term. I do not.

Ignoring the point again, I see. VO refers to it as a prison. You don't like it? Take it up with David Gaider.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're arguing from the assumption that the templars were justified in attacking Aenirin and D'Sims, and that they have evidence against Morrigan, despite the fact that we never see any forbidden magic performed by D'Sims, no blood magic from Morrigan, and that D'Sims wasn't even a real mage.

No. As always you seem to argue things you want, insted things that are written.

I'm asking you to prove the templars were wrong in both of those accounts.

Alos, what Morrigan did IS what the Chstnry would label as blood magic. We KNOW she is capable of it.
We don't know how much the Chatnry knows of what proof if has.

The burden of proof isn't on me to explain the templars murdering an innocent person because they wrongfully assumed he was healing people or putting a bounty on the head of a mage who helped save Ferelden.

Dark ritual is basically magical carnal contact. Carnal contact that could be construed as blood magic by modern standards, but I fail to see how a form of conception and manipulation of the taint is going to be perceived as such by people who are ignorant of the act; regardless, Morrigan never demonstrates any blood magic feats like Jowan repeatedly does. Again, no proof? No problem for the templars.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 février 2011 - 03:30 .

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If mages are so dangerous, why didn't the first Emperor of Orlais, who created the Circle of Magi, the Order of Templars, and the Chantry of Andraste, segregate mages immediately? In fact, let's examine why mages are segregated in modern day Thedas by looking at the incident that caused it in the first place. Let's examine the History of the Circle codex, written in Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.:

- snip-

Despite that it's pro-Chantry and has a pro-templar bias, there's no reference to blood mages or abominations as the reason mages are segregated. A nonviolent protest doesn't seem like a sufficient reason to segregate all mages to me. Maybe the people of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind have the right idea about not spreading anti-mage dogma and letting mages live alongside non-mages.

I don't see your point. The segregation of mages isn't the issue here - that's just implementation, which as I said is debatable. Mages were heavily restricted (movement wise, etc.) and the kind of magic they could do was also heavily restricted (light fires). This heavy repression was met with a protest that people recognized to be a result of unreasonable policy and actually went so far as to find a compromise that allowed mages more freedom re: the practice of their magic.

If anthing, this narrative shows the Chantry as being quite willing to work with mages.

[EmperorSahlertz]

THe templars refered to in the Dalish codex entry isn't sent in before the Exalted March, it IS the Exalted March. At no time did the Chantry try and force their faith on the Dalish. They had sent Missionaries, yes. But that is not a forceful conversion. They actually let the Dalish make their own choice on wether to believe or not. When the Elder Dalish realized their own faith was dying they kicked out the Missionaries. This caused tensions to rise, and culminated in the Exalted March, and thus Templars being sent in.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Yeah but it is most likely a misunderstanding on Varel or Garahels part when giving this message to the Warden commander. When they told him Blood mage.. They actually meant to say Maleficar, of which she certainly is and the templars could certainly find out about.

Let's not fan fic explanations to give the templars reason to go after someone where none exists, okay? The devs could have said maleficar for the Orlesian Warden, but they choose blood mage instead. No evidence that she is a blood mage in DA:O, and the templars still put a bounty on her life

XxDeonxX wrote...

and for all we know she could be a blood mage, there is no evidence to say she is exept perhaps the dark ritual, but thats really just second guessing it. But there is no evidence to say she isn't either.

Except for the year we spent with her where she clearly has no issue using non-Circle magic, but never any blood magic...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Also there is a big difference between being a warden and just simply associating with one. And I know they have no say, But that doesn't mean that the Warden commander couldn't find out whats going on. If the templar were moving large ammounts of cargo through his/her lands then (s)he would definitly know about it. He has soldiers and scouts throughout the area

The Warden-Commander has no say over the Chantry or the templars, any more than the nobility or even the ruler of the nation does (just see the Gaider comment about the Magi boon for an example).

Give them reason where none Exists? Maleficarum seems a pretty good reason to me


There is a big difference between being a warden and just simply
associating
with one, Because Morrigan Associated with the wardens doesn't protect
her from the chantry. The Right of Conscription should protect Anders
however as like the woman trying to get anders says. The Wardens have
always been a safe havan for Maleficar and Apostates. If the Chantry had
the real authority to do something about it, they would.
I know The
Warden commander has no say over chantry business. But he still knows
most things that will happen in his lands. If someone is moving Cargo
(the phylacteries), His scouts will report it to him He will find out if
they are moving them. But they aren't really moving phylacteries
through his lands so that is why the revered mother of Amaranthine
wouldn't know about it.. Because it isn't happening

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 février 2011 - 04:45 .

[Addai]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

THe templars refered to in the Dalish codex entry isn't sent in before the Exalted March, it IS the Exalted March. At no time did the Chantry try and force their faith on the Dalish. They had sent Missionaries, yes. But that is not a forceful conversion. They actually let the Dalish make their own choice on wether to believe or not. When the Elder Dalish realized their own faith was dying they kicked out the Missionaries. This caused tensions to rise, and culminated in the Exalted March, and thus Templars being sent in.

And that doesn't equate to trying to force Andrastianism on them?  Only a lawyer could make that argument.  Who says they should be forced to allow Chantry missionaries- or any humans-  in their midst?

Modifié par Addai67, 03 février 2011 - 04:40 .

[Augustei]

EDIT: Double post

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 février 2011 - 04:44 .

[Big I]

I don't like the Chantry. I disagree with their treatment of mages and their corruption, but honestly my main problem with them is their hypocrisy.

The Gauntlet shows us that things the Chantry cut from the Chant (Hessarian's conversion, Maferath's contrition, and Shartan's promise from Andraste) happened; more than that, they are key parts of Andraste's story (or else why would they be in the Gauntlet). They altered their scripture for political reasons. They claim to be the only ones who hold divine truth while editing the story of the their central religious figure.

And then there's the Dales. Andraste promised the elves their freedom and a homeland. Andraste, Bride of the Maker, who the Chantry believes showed them the way to salvation. They broke the word of their prophet, and said they did it in her name. It's as close to a divine commandment as they are ever likely to get, and they ignored it. They're utter hypocrites.

[Augustei]

Addai67 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

THe templars refered to in the Dalish codex entry isn't sent in before the Exalted March, it IS the Exalted March. At no time did the Chantry try and force their faith on the Dalish. They had sent Missionaries, yes. But that is not a forceful conversion. They actually let the Dalish make their own choice on wether to believe or not. When the Elder Dalish realized their own faith was dying they kicked out the Missionaries. This caused tensions to rise, and culminated in the Exalted March, and thus Templars being sent in.

And that doesn't equate to trying to force Andrastianism on them?  Only a lawyer could make that argument.  Who says they should be forced to allow Chantry missionaries- or any humans-  in their midst?

No because the Exalted March was called only when they had reached Val Royeaux
.. It wasn't the Chantry forcing Andrastianism on them.. IF it was anyone it was the Orlesian's forcing Andrastian on them. Sure you could say Orlais and the chantry are essentially the same, But they aren't. They have different rulers and authority figures. They simply share similar intrests.

However everything I just said could be made up bs.. Or everything the dales said could be made up bs. Both of their input on the situation is bias.. What is a very likely and very possible scenario is that both sides are lying to a degree

However even the Dalish storyteller says that even they doubt The Humans would invade without reason and reasons beyond that which is known

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 février 2011 - 04:56 .