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Does anyone actually LIKE the chantry?


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#426
Augustei

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Addai67 wrote...

Am I missing something? The templars hunt all apostates, blood mages or no, and I doubt they much care if they actually are maleficar or not.


Not all cases of mages escaping or apostates being found ends in their death. Some but not all templars are arrogant.. Not all will assume Apostates are Maleficar.

However pretty much ALL will kill a Maleficar on sight

Take Anders for example.. It took 7 escape attempts before they planned to kill him.. and the 7th time they only considered it because he was believed to have killed some of their fellow templars

besides, I believe Maleficar are  to blame for the Templars killing Apostates when they are not maleficar.. Due to the bad history of the maleficar attacking and severely injuring the templars.. They cant indeitify Maleficarum by sight. And so for fear of their safety some templars kill Apostates for fear they may be Maleficar

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 février 2011 - 11:15 .


#427
LobselVith8

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Addai67 wrote...

Am I missing something? The templars hunt all apostates, blood mages or no, and I doubt they much care if they actually are maleficar or not.


They don't care. In Awakening, we can read about an elven "healer" who pretended to heal the sick, and he got his head cut off by templars who thought he was an illegal mage. An Orlesian Warden in Witch Hunt can get a report that Morrigan has a bounty placed on her by the templars because they think she's a blood mage.

distinguetraces wrote...

My first and best-loved Origins character was an elven mage who hated the Templars and the Circle system but became a sincere Andrastean during the Sacred Ashes quest. There's a lot to admire in the religion.


Also an elven mage for my canon. Posted Image

Oghren does mention that large wall of lyrium that's affecting the entire temple during that quest (as an alternate explanation for the Guardian and the Ashes), but a character like Leliana was very religious and had no problem with mages. Too bad the other members of the Andrastian faith don't share her views.

#428
LobselVith8

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Am I missing something? The templars hunt all apostates, blood mages or no, and I doubt they much care if they actually are maleficar or not.


Not all cases of mages escaping or apostates being found ends in their death. Some but not all templars are arrogant.. Not all will assume Apostates are Maleficar.

However pretty much ALL will kill a Maleficar on sight

Take Anders for example.. It took 7 escape attempts before they planned to kill him.. and the 7th time they only considered it because he was believed to have killed some of their fellow templars

besides, I believe Maleficar are  to blame for the Templars killing Apostates when they are not maleficar.. Due to the bad history of the maleficar attacking and severely injuring the templars.. They cant indeitify Maleficarum by sight. And so for fear of their safety some templars kill Apostates for fear they may be Maleficar


Aenirin ran away, and the templars claimed he was a maleficar. It's questionable if this is true, since we never see anything to prove it, and Aenirin is a healer among the Dalish.

Also, the only reason Anders is alive is because Irving went to bat for him and said there was no proof that he was a maleficar, and Greagoir gives him a lot of rope as Knight-Commander. Anders is alive because of Irving and Greagoir.

#429
Augustei

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LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Am I missing something? The templars hunt all apostates, blood mages or no, and I doubt they much care if they actually are maleficar or not.


Not all cases of mages escaping or apostates being found ends in their death. Some but not all templars are arrogant.. Not all will assume Apostates are Maleficar.

However pretty much ALL will kill a Maleficar on sight

Take Anders for example.. It took 7 escape attempts before they planned to kill him.. and the 7th time they only considered it because he was believed to have killed some of their fellow templars

besides, I believe Maleficar are  to blame for the Templars killing Apostates when they are not maleficar.. Due to the bad history of the maleficar attacking and severely injuring the templars.. They cant indeitify Maleficarum by sight. And so for fear of their safety some templars kill Apostates for fear they may be Maleficar


Aenirin ran away, and the templars claimed he was a maleficar. It's questionable if this is true, since we never see anything to prove it, and Aenirin is a healer among the Dalish.

Also, the only reason Anders is alive is because Irving went to bat for him and said there was no proof that he was a maleficar, and Greagoir gives him a lot of rope as Knight-Commander. Anders is alive because of Irving and Greagoir.


Where does it say that about Irving speaking up for him? Or is it just assumption?

And the difference between those two cases and morrigans still stands that Morrigan really is a Maleficar, and they probably know about it

Just because the cases we get our hands on of events where mages wrongly accused people of being Maleficar and killed them.. of which there are very very few cases. Doubt they even reach double digits.. Doesn't mean all templars everywhere do this

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 03 février 2011 - 11:44 .


#430
LobselVith8

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XxDeonxX wrote...

Where does it say that about Irving speaking up for him? Or is it just assumption?

And the difference between those two cases and morrigans still stands that Morrigan really is a Maleficar, and they probably know about it

Just because the cases we get our hands on of events where mages wrongly accused people of being Maleficar and killed them.. of which there are very very few cases. Doubt they even reach double digits.. Doesn't mean all templars everywhere do this


First, not an assumption. David Gaider revealed Irving as the reason why Anders wasn't killed.

Second, Morrigan is a maleficar, but there's no indication that she's a blood mage. Therefore, the templars are going after her because they think she's one.

Third, we have no idea how many innocent people have been killed because the templars thought they were mages. Given that we have no evidence of templars being reprimanded for anything besides "chasing tail" (as Ian pointed out) it doesn't seem to be too much of a concern for them.

#431
EmperorSahlertz

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I don't recall I said anything about religious freedom.... Did I ever say anything about that? No. I did not.

I said that no one compels the Elves to believe in he maker. There is no law past or current that says they MUST believe in the maker, only that they can't practice their old religion. Which is reasonable, as that religion brought on hte war.

#432
EmperorSahlertz

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LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Incidently, the Exalted March also happened after that event.


You lack proof that the templars were only sent in after the Exalted March.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Again. Yes, the outlawed the Dalish religion. No. They did not force the Andrastian faith on them. It is totally the Elves own choice wether or not to believe in the Maker. They just aren't allowed to practice their old faith.


The Chantry did force it on them. No different than when Native Americans were taken and forced to convert. That's why all the elves of the Alienage now worship the Maker and can only be married by the Chantry.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You realize that very same codex makes NO MENTION AT ALL about the Exalted March, correct? And is biased to hell back.


It's from their POV. You dislike it because you favor the Chantry. You also relegated mages to being "Chantry property," so I don't see the point in this debate since you can't prove it happened after the Exalted March was declared.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

At least the Chantry historians tries to be objective, and even admits they don't have the whole picture. The Dalish don't even care. No. The Templars, mentioned in that entry, is a refrence to the Exalted March.


That's funny - your claim that the Chantry historians try to be objective. That must be why Genitivi refers to humans as the masters of Thedas and the condescending way that the mages are written about in the History of the Circle codex.

Oh, I'm sorry. And you obviously got proof they were sent in before the Exalted March? And the extremely biased piece of crap codex entry you call lore that the Dalish provide is NOT proof. It is way too biased to ever even be used in a historical debate. But obviously, you dont care.

edit: on a side note. Maleficar and Blood Mage is used interchangably by the commoner in Thedas, as the commoner is not likely to even know the difference. Hence, why the Orlesian Warden codex states Morrigan as a Blood Mage. Or at least a reason for it. But again, you wont care, as it doesn't fit your view.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 04 février 2011 - 03:31 .


#433
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall I said anything about religious freedom.... Did I ever say anything about that? No. I did not.
I said that no one compels the Elves to believe in he maker. There is no law past or current that says they MUST believe in the maker, only that they can't practice their old religion. Which is reasonable, as that religion brought on hte war.


No it is not reasonable.  Holding a sword to someone's throat and saying you must forgoe your religion is almost by defionition unreasonable.  The Old Elven religion didn't start the war.  Arguably it was the Chantry that did and I note that the chantry had to omit an entire section of the Chant of Light to justify this war.

Essentially Andraste promised the Elven slaves a homeland, and the Chantry reneged on that in a big way (which explains why the Chant of Shartan was unceremoniously deleted).

-Polaris

#434
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh, I'm sorry. And you obviously got proof they were sent in before the Exalted March? And the extremely biased piece of crap codex entry you call lore that the Dalish provide is NOT proof. It is way too biased to ever even be used in a historical debate. But obviously, you dont care.


And the Chantry version is less biased?  Really?

The fact is that the Chantry did NOT have to seek to destroy the Elves as a people, but Divine Renata tried to do just that even going so far as to rewrite the chant of light to justify it.  That alone is inexcusable.

-Polaris

#435
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

edit: on a side note. Maleficar and Blood Mage is used interchangably by the commoner in Thedas, as the commoner is not likely to even know the difference. Hence, why the Orlesian Warden codex states Morrigan as a Blood Mage. Or at least a reason for it. But again, you wont care, as it doesn't fit your view.


This actually accentuates Lob's point.  At no point is there ever any evidence that Morrigan is a bloodmage (and in all of my games she isn't).  That didn't stop the Chantry from calling her one though.....

-Polaris

#436
EmperorSahlertz

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall I said anything about religious freedom.... Did I ever say anything about that? No. I did not.
I said that no one compels the Elves to believe in he maker. There is no law past or current that says they MUST believe in the maker, only that they can't practice their old religion. Which is reasonable, as that religion brought on hte war.


No it is not reasonable.  Holding a sword to someone's throat and saying you must forgoe your religion is almost by defionition unreasonable.  The Old Elven religion didn't start the war.  Arguably it was the Chantry that did and I note that the chantry had to omit an entire section of the Chant of Light to justify this war.

Essentially Andraste promised the Elven slaves a homeland, and the Chantry reneged on that in a big way (which explains why the Chant of Shartan was unceremoniously deleted).

-Polaris

They did not omit it, until after the war. And the Dalish leaders are the only ones trying to suppress anything to start with. Is it the choice of the individual, or his peers what he should believe? Or you actually that double standard. that you condemn the Chantry for their acts, but refuse to see that the Dalish did just the same?
Had the Dalish leaders just been able to accept and adapt to the "new" thoughts of the Chant, all of the horrors of the Exalted Mardh could have been avoided. Instead they feared the visions the Chant brought with it, and outlawed it....

#437
EmperorSahlertz

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

edit: on a side note. Maleficar and Blood Mage is used interchangably by the commoner in Thedas, as the commoner is not likely to even know the difference. Hence, why the Orlesian Warden codex states Morrigan as a Blood Mage. Or at least a reason for it. But again, you wont care, as it doesn't fit your view.


This actually accentuates Lob's point.  At no point is there ever any evidence that Morrigan is a bloodmage (and in all of my games she isn't).  That didn't stop the Chantry from calling her one though.....

-Polaris

Huh?... It does no such thing. It only states that the two terms are used interchangeably, and while different, the commoner wouldn't know. Which is why the Chantry states as much. Also: do you even know wether their suspecion is based on evidence? No. Y>ou do not. You are talking out your arse (again). For all we know. Morrigan did some very "Blood Magical" things in Orlais, in the two years we didn't have contact with her. Do I know? No. Do you know? Certainly not.

#438
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They did not omit it, until after the war. And the Dalish leaders are the only ones trying to suppress anything to start with. Is it the choice of the individual, or his peers what he should believe? Or you actually that double standard. that you condemn the Chantry for their acts, but refuse to see that the Dalish did just the same?
Had the Dalish leaders just been able to accept and adapt to the "new" thoughts of the Chant, all of the horrors of the Exalted Mardh could have been avoided. Instead they feared the visions the Chant brought with it, and outlawed it....


The sisters of Denerim say it was deleted DURING the exalted marches, not afterwards.  As for the Dales, whether I agree with them or not, the Dales as a sovereign nation have the right to permit or refuse people crossing their borders for any or no reason including religious ones.  It's what makes a sovereign nation soveirgn.  That means since that sovereignty was promised by Andraste herself, that the Chantry was in the wrong no matter how brutal the Dales were in guarding their own borders.

-Polaris

#439
IanPolaris

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

edit: on a side note. Maleficar and Blood Mage is used interchangably by the commoner in Thedas, as the commoner is not likely to even know the difference. Hence, why the Orlesian Warden codex states Morrigan as a Blood Mage. Or at least a reason for it. But again, you wont care, as it doesn't fit your view.


This actually accentuates Lob's point.  At no point is there ever any evidence that Morrigan is a bloodmage (and in all of my games she isn't).  That didn't stop the Chantry from calling her one though.....

-Polaris

Huh?... It does no such thing. It only states that the two terms are used interchangeably, and while different, the commoner wouldn't know. Which is why the Chantry states as much. Also: do you even know wether their suspecion is based on evidence? No. Y>ou do not. You are talking out your arse (again). For all we know. Morrigan did some very "Blood Magical" things in Orlais, in the two years we didn't have contact with her. Do I know? No. Do you know? Certainly not.



The entry says "bloodmage" not Malifcar, and it's unreasonable to think the First Warden (the equivalent of a KING!) wouldn't know the difference (or have advisors that did).  As for Morrigan being a bloodmage, well, evidence would be nice.

-Polaris

#440
Lotion Soronarr

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[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It is not neccesary for you to see any evidence.
You cannot simply assume that because you don't seee anything, that it doesn't exist. Morrigans was away two years. Who knows what she did by that time?
We didn't get to see Gregoirs evidence on Jowan..does that me he didn't have it? No. [/quote]

The First Enchanter should have seen the evidence against Jowan, but didn't, and the Rite was signed anyway. If this were an anti-mage Cullen as Knight-Commander (which can happen) then innocent mages could be condemned with nothing to save them.[/quote]

Is it even necessary for the First Enchanter to see the evidence before the order is signed? The FC is the day-to-day adminitrator of the circle, the KC is there for security.
For an example, if a teacher in the school commits a crime, and hte polcie comes to arrest him, do they have to show the evidence to the school director? I don't think so.
Now, can you tell me that the FC wouldn't see the evidence AT ALL (like, before the rite..or maybe Gregoir showed him while the PC was in the vault?)
In orther words, you know too little and agai nassume too much.

[quote]
As for your comments on Morrigan, seems like you're fanwanking explanations for your pro-Chantry views. The reality is: no evidence, no problem. Kill them first, ask questions never. [/quote]

The only one fanwanking here is you Lob.


[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
I'm not doubring the Chantry is recognizing their Rite on Ferelden folk...question is - under whos's jurisdiction does Allistair fall (or should I say did fall)?
You do realsie that the Grand Cleric could argue agaisnt letting Alistair even she didn't have any legal right to hold him, right? It's bluff/power play.

But either way, irrelevant. [/quote]

In other words, you're ignoring the story because it doesn't fit your perspective. The Chantry clearly has to heed the Rite of Conscription - which is why mages are freed from Chantry control (as Gaider admits), and why Alistair is a Grey Warden and not a member of the Order of Templars.[/quote]

Alistair never completed his vows. He was never officialy a real templar.
And are mages even technicly Chantry? The Cirlce is it's own thing. When you complete the Broken Circle and save the mages, Gregoir doesn't order the mages to help you - he tells you to ask Irwing. Meaning he has no direct right to give them such orders.

But as I sad before, this is ultimatively irrelevant for the discussion.



[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]
[quote]
And not everyone shares yours. You argue definitons. So will I.
You think ti's an accurate term. I do not. [/quote]

Ignoring the point again, I see. VO refers to it as a prison. You don't like it? Take it up with David Gaider.[/quote]

Take up the slavery bit up with DG if you will.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're arguing from the assumption that the templars were justified in attacking Aenirin and D'Sims, and that they have evidence against Morrigan, despite the fact that we never see any forbidden magic performed by D'Sims, no blood magic from Morrigan, and that D'Sims wasn't even a real mage. [/quote]

No. As always you seem to argue things you want, insted things that are written.

I'm asking you to prove the templars were wrong in both of those accounts.

Alos, what Morrigan did IS what the Chstnry would label as blood magic. We KNOW she is capable of it.
We don't know how much the Chatnry knows of what proof if has. [/quote]

The burden of proof isn't on me to explain the templars murdering an innocent person because they wrongfully assumed he was healing people or putting a bounty on the head of a mage who helped save Ferelden.

Dark ritual is basically magical carnal contact. Carnal contact that could be construed as blood magic by modern standards, but I fail to see how a form of conception and manipulation of the taint is going to be perceived as such by people who are ignorant of the act; regardless, Morrigan never demonstrates any blood magic feats like Jowan repeatedly does. Again, no proof? No problem for the templars.[/quote]

No. You first calim absolute knowledge...which you don't have.
You claim absolute proof of guilt...which you don't have, given you'r lack of knowledge of the circumstances.
And most importantly, you assume the two incidents are the standatrd modus operandi, again, without anything to support it.

So the burden of proof is on you.


And in Morrigans own words "some would label it as blood magic".
You can it a magicla carnal contact, but you rellay don't know what exactly was involved in it.

Morrigan never actually denied it is blood magic. But it's not her defeinition that matters. It's the Chantry's. Not to mention that we have no idea what's she's been up to or what evidence the templars have. If Morrigan was doing things in Orlais, I wouldn't be surprised if she caught the Chantry's attention there.
Again, you got no proof that they have no proof.

#441
Lotion Soronarr

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LobselVith8 wrote...
You realize that the Dales codex makes no reference as to when the templars were sent in, correct? There's no reason to claim that the templars were sent in during the Exalted March against the Dales when they could have been sent in before, which makes sense since the codex references templars coming in after the missionaries were kicked out.


That makes little sense. The Dales at that time were VERY powerfull.
The templars wouldn't be even remotely enough to wage a war.

So either the templars marched in with an entire army behind them at the very begining, or at the very end.


If they're after her because she's maleficarum, why are they labelling her as a blood mage and not a maleficar? Still haven't heard the answer to that - because there is none. No proof? No problem for the templars.


A maleficar is a
mage who uses the forbidden arts, including—but not solely restricted to—blood magic.

The terms are interchangable...

#442
IanPolaris

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That makes little sense. The Dales at that time were VERY powerfull.
The templars wouldn't be even remotely enough to wage a war.

So either the templars marched in with an entire army behind them at the very begining, or at the very end.


Actually it makes perfect sense.  'Tis true that Templars by themselves would not be enough to wage war, but they would be enough to provide armed security for Chantry Missionaries esp if the Chantry decides not to respect Dalish Sovereignty and is trying to pick a fight and create a causis belli for an exalted march.  This is hardly unknown even in our own history when the Brits did almost exactly this to force China to open up her boarders to British based drug dealers (Opium) by creating a situation that "caused" the Opium Wars.

Until that time, China (like the Dales in the DA universe) was simply too big and too powerful for any one Western nation to take on either economically or militarily.

-Polaris

#443
Lotion Soronarr

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IanPolaris wrote...
Essentially Andraste promised the Elven slaves a homeland, and the Chantry reneged on that in a big way (which explains why the Chant of Shartan was unceremoniously deleted).


If hte elves really started the war and sacked the border vilalges, then I dont' see no problem wiht the war that followed.
The Dalish did get their homeland... the promise was honored. They lost if later....but who's to blame for that loss?
You're quick to blame the Chantry, but if the elves brought their doom on themselves, it's not the duty of the Cahtnry to protect the elves at it's own expense.

Remember, the Dalish were attcking Val Royaux and hte HQ of the Chantry itself. Waht was the Cahtnry supposed to do? Lie down and die?

#444
Lotion Soronarr

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IanPolaris wrote...
As for the Dales, whether I agree with them or not, the Dales as a sovereign nation have the right to permit or refuse people crossing their borders for any or no reason including religious ones.  It's what makes a sovereign nation soveirgn.  That means since that sovereignty was promised by Andraste herself, that the Chantry was in the wrong no matter how brutal the Dales were in guarding their own borders.


There is zero doubt in my mind that if the Chantry was doing the same thing, you'd be calling them bastards.

#445
Augustei

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Actually the chantrys own evidence (Bias evidence) is that The exalted March wasn't called until they reached Val Royeux, The Templars wern't directly involved in the war prior to that, Orlais was. And Just because Orlais is the basis for the chantry. Does not mean they are esentially the same thing. The Emperors / Emperesses dont really have any real influence over the chantry. But their interests are similar. Their governing bodies and representitives are different however.

#446
Augustei

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IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
That makes little sense. The Dales at that time were VERY powerfull.
The templars wouldn't be even remotely enough to wage a war.

So either the templars marched in with an entire army behind them at the very begining, or at the very end.


Actually it makes perfect sense.  'Tis true that Templars by themselves would not be enough to wage war, but they would be enough to provide armed security for Chantry Missionaries esp if the Chantry decides not to respect Dalish Sovereignty and is trying to pick a fight and create a causis belli for an exalted march.  This is hardly unknown even in our own history when the Brits did almost exactly this to force China to open up her boarders to British based drug dealers (Opium) by creating a situation that "caused" the Opium Wars.

Until that time, China (like the Dales in the DA universe) was simply too big and too powerful for any one Western nation to take on either economically or militarily.

-Polaris


The Missionaries and Templars in The Dales have no mention in chantry records. They are all recounts from the Dalish.  Which is bias. Both sides are Lying though that much is certain, But the question is to what level and degree each side is lying.

A quite possible scenario is that the chantry sent their missionaries not guarded by templars. The Missionaries were thrown out and Orlais was not happy about this because they came to the realisation that they could gain power and Authority within the dales if the chantry owned it. They could establish more there in the name of Orlais. So they declared war, got their arses handed to em. And then when Val Royeux was about to be assaulted Exalted March was declared.
Buuuut.. due to evidence, that story isn't certain and cannot be used as evidence for anything.. Just speculation. There is no right or wrong side in the war with the dales yet.. Innocent until proven guilty. This is the case for both sides.

Both sides are lying. But to what degree we are yet to find out.

#447
Augustei

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
You realize that the Dales codex makes no reference as to when the templars were sent in, correct? There's no reason to claim that the templars were sent in during the Exalted March against the Dales when they could have been sent in before, which makes sense since the codex references templars coming in after the missionaries were kicked out.


That makes little sense. The Dales at that time were VERY powerfull.
The templars wouldn't be even remotely enough to wage a war.

So either the templars marched in with an entire army behind them at the very begining, or at the very end.


If they're after her because she's maleficarum, why are they labelling her as a blood mage and not a maleficar? Still haven't heard the answer to that - because there is none. No proof? No problem for the templars.


A maleficar is a
mage who uses the forbidden arts, including—but not solely restricted to—blood magic.

The terms are interchangable...


Yes but the issue LobselVith was pointing out was that the chantry specifically branded her Blood Mage.. She is guilty of being Maleficar there is no doubt, She is guilty of a crime but was condemned for the wrong one and without reason for the one she was convicted of. There is indeed evidence she is a Maleficar, But theres none to be had that she is a Blood Mage.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 04 février 2011 - 09:30 .


#448
Augustei

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IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall I said anything about religious freedom.... Did I ever say anything about that? No. I did not.
I said that no one compels the Elves to believe in he maker. There is no law past or current that says they MUST believe in the maker, only that they can't practice their old religion. Which is reasonable, as that religion brought on hte war.


No it is not reasonable.  Holding a sword to someone's throat and saying you must forgoe your religion is almost by defionition unreasonable.  The Old Elven religion didn't start the war.  Arguably it was the Chantry that did and I note that the chantry had to omit an entire section of the Chant of Light to justify this war.

Essentially Andraste promised the Elven slaves a homeland, and the Chantry reneged on that in a big way (which explains why the Chant of Shartan was unceremoniously deleted).

-Polaris


That reason is bias. That is only the dalish side of the story, the Chantry who provide an also Bias exscuse is that they were making human sacrifices, They had slaughtered everyone in red crossing and were invading Orlais and this could be true because the chantry wasn't directly involved (As far as we can clarify) until  Val Royeux was being or about to be assaulted.

#449
Bahlgan

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commanderVal wrote...

Personally, I do not accept any religion to guide me, I find the thought rather moronic. But religions as an organizing force seems to be a good idea because from experience I have come to believe that humanity, as a mass entity, is self destructive, and therefore needs to be guided, sometimes against their will.
In the game, my warden was usually a templar/champion human noble who adhered to chantry principles on a general basis but would also disregard chantry teachings when it seemed appropriate- such as not allowing the dwarf to set up a chantry in Orzammar. All beliefs must be accepted and not forced.
Following anything blindly is foolish, we all know that- the same applies to the chantry, the church or whatever else one follows.


Your story about your Warden and mine are almost 100% identical it's not even funny at all man, so I completely hate the proposed idea of sounding like an utter, mirrored buzzkill to you and others, but there it is.

Only differences are that while I may not use a religion to guide me, I do not dismiss the possibility of a higher power being out there. In real life, I do not know what this power may be nor do I expect to understand. I expect only that this higher power understand that no mortal is to know - I believe if this "God" or other entity(ies) wanted us to believe in them, they'd show their pretentious faces and make it the most obvious to do so. In my not-so-humble opinion, faith is for the weak; gotta make your own path if no god is gonna do it for you.

As far as my Warden goes, he shares the same opinion as I do, being that I reflect every moral and physical detail of myself unto him as I possibly can (don't know if this is gonna give me flame wars or not, but it's just an opinion). My Warden was, as a Human Noble, raised to believe in the Maker as a youth, but later came to his own conclusion that while the Maker might truly exist (his belief is reinforced after seeing the ashes and Eamon's recovery), he also very much believes the Chantry is a very flawed and currently corrupt beacon of his divine voice. He believes similarly to Leliana in the Maker; similarly, NOT exactly in the same boundaries. He believes, as I would, that the Maker has already forgiven the races for their sins, and that he is watching, but very subtle and silent he remains. Now, I won't mention whether or not I believe he truly exists, but the Warden is under the impression that the Maker and Andraste, as well as the spirits in the Gauntlet, are indeed real. I mean come on, he gazed and interacted with them. If you can see it, feel it, touch it..... You get my drift right guys?

#450
IanPolaris

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XxDeonxX wrote...

That reason is bias. That is only the dalish side of the story, the Chantry who provide an also Bias exscuse is that they were making human sacrifices, They had slaughtered everyone in red crossing and were invading Orlais and this could be true because the chantry wasn't directly involved (As far as we can clarify) until  Val Royeux was being or about to be assaulted.


That makes me more not less suspicious of the Chantry side of things.  That's not to say the Dalish haven't slanted their own history their way (they surely have), but the Chantry doesn't even try to make a sensible timeline here.  If it were true that the reason the Divine called an exalted March is because of Heathen crimes against unbelievers, then why wait until the Dalish are on the doorstep of Val Royeux?  It seems far more reasonable and far more likely that the main (and perhaps only real) reason for the exalted march was to save Orlais' bacon as a favor to the Emperors of Orlais.

In that case, the Exalted March is even less justified especially if Orlais started the war (which is still a matter of doubt) and it still doesn't excuse the act of cultural genocide in direct contravention of Andraste's promise to the elves, i.e. total war and unconditional surrender wasn't necessary....except Divine Renata obviously wanted to wipe out all "godless heathens".

-Polaris