1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Augustei]

Actually if the Chantrys side of the story were true it would not be cultural genocide it would be self defence.. Its Logical to defend the lands of the basis of your order. The Foundation of the chantry is in Val Royeaux so if its destroyed then how would that be good for the chantry?

The Chantry says they wern't involved in the war until the elves were at Val Royeux.. You catagorise the Chantry and Orlais as the same thing, when they aren't. They simply share the same general interests in alot of areas. If Orlais declares war, then the chantry doesn't declare war by default. They do half the time but not always.



Also there is nothing said of "Heathen" crimes, they are Heretical. Heathen simply means "non christian or jew" or in this case "non Andrastian" so calling them Heathen crimes is an over-simplification.



Letting the Elves destroy Orlais would also mean, letting the Elves severely damage the chantry, Destroying many of their chapels and churchs in the process and losing them pretty much all their Western power.



The Chantrys reasons for the war are not based on their paganism and the chantry wanting them to convert. The Chantrys reasons are acts of self defence and stopping the Invaders who have committed unforgiveable crimes.

These aren't Pathetic excuses that are obviously wrong. We cant make judgement on the sitaution with so little info to go on and what little info we have all being Bias.

Lack of information, is not information. You seem to be pointing out flaws in evidence that isn't really there. Why wait until Val Royeux? We dont know, but because they did doesn't mean that their story is any less likely



The Simple Fact of the matter is, which I keep saying is that the Chantrys actions cannot be condemned nor can they be Justified.

[jesus34343]

Main problem with the chantry is the fact that they sent exalted marches against the Tevinter Imperium. The other exalted marches make a certain amount of sense (Dales, Qunari) but Tevinter didn't threaten them with invasion they just wanted to be independant.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They did not omit it, until after the war. And the Dalish leaders are the only ones trying to suppress anything to start with. Is it the choice of the individual, or his peers what he should believe? Or you actually that double standard. that you condemn the Chantry for their acts, but refuse to see that the Dalish did just the same?
Had the Dalish leaders just been able to accept and adapt to the "new" thoughts of the Chant, all of the horrors of the Exalted Mardh could have been avoided. Instead they feared the visions the Chant brought with it, and outlawed it....

The sisters of Denerim say it was deleted DURING the exalted marches, not afterwards.  As for the Dales, whether I agree with them or not, the Dales as a sovereign nation have the right to permit or refuse people crossing their borders for any or no reason including religious ones.  It's what makes a sovereign nation soveirgn.  That means since that sovereignty was promised by Andraste herself, that the Chantry was in the wrong no matter how brutal the Dales were in guarding their own borders.

-Polaris

Wait... So the Dales are allowed to outlaw religion but Orlais (and the rest) aren't? You know what that is? Double standards. You got them.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You realize that the Dales codex makes no reference as to when the templars were sent in, correct? There's no reason to claim that the templars were sent in during the Exalted March against the Dales when they could have been sent in before, which makes sense since the codex references templars coming in after the missionaries were kicked out.

That makes little sense. The Dales at that time were VERY powerfull.
The templars wouldn't be even remotely enough to wage a war.

So either the templars marched in with an entire army behind them at the very begining, or at the very end.

Your assumptions aren't facts. The Dalish codex states that the templars came in after the missionaries were kicked out. When the Warden arrives at the camp, we're told that the human nations grew cold toward the Dales because they refused to convert. Clearly, it seems to have been an issue (according to the Dalish POV). I see no reason to dismiss it when we have no idea what really happened.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If they're after her because she's maleficarum, why are they labelling her as a blood mage and not a maleficar? Still haven't heard the answer to that - because there is none. No proof? No problem for the templars.

A maleficar is a mage who uses the forbidden arts, including—but not solely restricted to—blood magic.

The terms are interchangable...

Once again, Lotion, you fail to acknowledge that the templars placed a bounty on her because they suspect she's a blood mage, not because she's an illegal mage.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
Essentially Andraste promised the Elven slaves a homeland, and the Chantry reneged on that in a big way (which explains why the Chant of Shartan was unceremoniously deleted).

If hte elves really started the war and sacked the border vilalges, then I dont' see no problem wiht the war that followed.
The Dalish did get their homeland... the promise was honored. They lost if later....but who's to blame for that loss?
You're quick to blame the Chantry, but if the elves brought their doom on themselves, it's not the duty of the Cahtnry to protect the elves at it's own expense.

Remember, the Dalish were attcking Val Royaux and hte HQ of the Chantry itself. Waht was the Cahtnry supposed to do? Lie down and die?

It's an issue of whether they started the war against the Dales in the first place, and if the Dalish codex is correct in reading that templars were sent in to force the elves to convert to the Chantry of Andraste.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't recall I said anything about religious freedom.... Did I ever say anything about that? No. I did not.
I said that no one compels the Elves to believe in he maker. There is no law past or current that says they MUST believe in the maker, only that they can't practice their old religion. Which is reasonable, as that religion brought on hte war.

Considering that worship of their gods was made illegal and they're only legally married by the Chantry, I fail to see how they had a choice...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Oh, I'm sorry. And you obviously got proof they were sent in before the Exalted March? And the extremely biased piece of crap codex entry you call lore that the Dalish provide is NOT proof. It is way too biased to ever even be used in a historical debate. But obviously, you dont care.

edit: on a side note. Maleficar and Blood Mage is used interchangably by the commoner in Thedas, as the commoner is not likely to even know the difference. Hence, why the Orlesian Warden codex states Morrigan as a Blood Mage. Or at least a reason for it. But again, you wont care, as it doesn't fit your view.

All the codex entries are biased. You clearly dislike it because you favor the Chantry. Again, you have no proof to dismiss that templars were sent in right after the missionaries were kicked out. You can't say it isn't possible.

Again, they put a bounty on Morrigan because they think she's a blood mage, and if it was because they thought she was maleficarum, the devs would have written that instead of blood mage. You don't like it? Take it up with the creators of Witch Hunt.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

They did not omit it, until after the war. And the Dalish leaders are the only ones trying to suppress anything to start with. Is it the choice of the individual, or his peers what he should believe? Or you actually that double standard. that you condemn the Chantry for their acts, but refuse to see that the Dalish did just the same?
Had the Dalish leaders just been able to accept and adapt to the "new" thoughts of the Chant, all of the horrors of the Exalted Mardh could have been avoided. Instead they feared the visions the Chant brought with it, and outlawed it....

Your pro-Chantry views are clearly evident, Emperor. The Dalish didn't have to accept missionaries or templars invading their sovereignty. And it was the Chantry of Andraste that made worship of the elven gods illegal.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

edit: on a side note. Maleficar and Blood Mage is used interchangably by the commoner in Thedas, as the commoner is not likely to even know the difference. Hence, why the Orlesian Warden codex states Morrigan as a Blood Mage. Or at least a reason for it. But again, you wont care, as it doesn't fit your view.[/quote]

This actually accentuates Lob's point.  At no point is there ever any evidence that Morrigan is a bloodmage (and in all of my games she isn't).  That didn't stop the Chantry from calling her one though.....

-Polaris[/quote]

Huh?... It does no such thing. It only states that the two terms are used interchangeably, and while different, the commoner wouldn't know. Which is why the Chantry states as much. Also: do you even know wether their suspecion is based on evidence? No. Y>ou do not. You are talking out your arse (again). For all we know. Morrigan did some very "Blood Magical" things in Orlais, in the two years we didn't have contact with her. Do I know? No. Do you know? Certainly not.[/quote]

You mean fanwank an explanation so the Chantry can be seen as heroic for putting a hit out on Morrigan when there's no indication that they have any evidence that she's a blood mage at all? In fact, in the year she spends with the Warden, she never performs the blood magic we see from the blood mages or Jowan.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The First Enchanter should have seen the evidence against Jowan, but didn't, and the Rite was signed anyway. If this were an anti-mage Cullen as Knight-Commander (which can happen) then innocent mages could be condemned with nothing to save them.[/quote]

Is it even necessary for the First Enchanter to see the evidence before the order is signed? The FC is the day-to-day adminitrator of the circle, the KC is there for security.
For an example, if a teacher in the school commits a crime, and hte polcie comes to arrest him, do they have to show the evidence to the school director? I don't think so.
Now, can you tell me that the FC wouldn't see the evidence AT ALL (like, before the rite..or maybe Gregoir showed him while the PC was in the vault?)
In orther words, you know too little and agai nassume too much. [/quote]

The Rite was already signed against Jowan and Irving never saw the evidence against him. Don't you see the problem here? If this was a mage-hating Cullen as the new KC giving an innocent mage the Rite of Tranquility and the First Enchanter doesn't even see the evidence, how does anyone know that the evidence in question is valid?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for your comments on Morrigan, seems like you're fanwanking explanations for your pro-Chantry views. The reality is: no evidence, no problem. Kill them first, ask questions never. [/quote]

The only one fanwanking here is you Lob. [/quote]

Since there's no evidence Morrigan is a blood mage in DA:O when her primary skill is changing shape, the burden of proof lies on you to prove the Chantry correct in putting a bounty on her for being a blood mage.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

In other words, you're ignoring the story because it doesn't fit your perspective. The Chantry clearly has to heed the Rite of Conscription - which is why mages are freed from Chantry control (as Gaider admits), and why Alistair is a Grey Warden and not a member of the Order of Templars.[/quote]

Alistair never completed his vows. He was never officialy a real templar.
And are mages even technicly Chantry? The Cirlce is it's own thing. When you complete the Broken Circle and save the mages, Gregoir doesn't order the mages to help you - he tells you to ask Irwing. Meaning he has no direct right to give them such orders.

But as I sad before, this is ultimatively irrelevant for the discussion. [/quote]

It's not irrelevant. You're ignoring the fact that the Chantry had to accept the Rite of Conscription when it came to Alistair being recruited by Duncan.

Second, Irving has as much authority as KC Greagoir permits. That's clear from there only being seven mages permitted at Ostagar and the Rite of Tranquility on Jowan that FE Irving had no say over.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Ignoring the point again, I see. VO refers to it as a prison. You don't like it? Take it up with David Gaider.[/quote]

Take up the slavery bit up with DG if you will. [/quote]

He didn't respond to my retort that we see the surviving elves from Arlathan have magic from the Eluvians and the magical barriers placed in the Deep Roads (Witch Hunt), so that isn't going to be likely. I'm still waiting for the explanation on why the US sacrifice has the ruler order KC Greagoir to leave the mages alone once the new Tower is built.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You're arguing from the assumption that the templars were justified in attacking Aenirin and D'Sims, and that they have evidence against Morrigan, despite the fact that we never see any forbidden magic performed by D'Sims, no blood magic from Morrigan, and that D'Sims wasn't even a real mage. [/quote]

No. As always you seem to argue things you want, insted things that are written.

I'm asking you to prove the templars were wrong in both of those accounts.

Alos, what Morrigan did IS what the Chstnry would label as blood magic. We KNOW she is capable of it.
We don't know how much the Chatnry knows of what proof if has. [/quote]

Coming from the person who ignores that the Rite of Conscription was used to recruit Alistair from the Chantry, I find your first statement odd.

The burden of proof isn't on me to fanwank explanations for why the templars suspect Morrigan of being a blood mage when she never demonstrates the blood magic abilities we see with Jowan. You want to argue that it was justified, you need to provide proof that it was.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The burden of proof isn't on me to explain the templars murdering an innocent person because they wrongfully assumed he was healing people or putting a bounty on the head of a mage who helped save Ferelden.

Dark ritual is basically magical carnal contact. Carnal contact that could be construed as blood magic by modern standards, but I fail to see how a form of conception and manipulation of the taint is going to be perceived as such by people who are ignorant of the act; regardless, Morrigan never demonstrates any blood magic feats like Jowan repeatedly does. Again, no proof? No problem for the templars.[/quote]

No. You first calim absolute knowledge...which you don't have.
You claim absolute proof of guilt...which you don't have, given you'r lack of knowledge of the circumstances.
And most importantly, you assume the two incidents are the standatrd modus operandi, again, without anything to support it.

So the burden of proof is on you. [/quote]

The burden of proof isn't on me to justify the murder of an innocent man who templars assumed was a mage healing people, nor is it up to me to justify the attempted murder of Aenirin when we have no evidence that he's maleficar. In fact, he's known among the Dalish as "Aenirin the healer."

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And in Morrigans own words "some would label it as blood magic".
You can it a magicla carnal contact, but you rellay don't know what exactly was involved in it. [/quote]

In other words, the templars would have no way of knowing about the dark ritual?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Morrigan never actually denied it is blood magic. But it's not her defeinition that matters. It's the Chantry's. Not to mention that we have no idea what's she's been up to or what evidence the templars have. If Morrigan was doing things in Orlais, I wouldn't be surprised if she caught the Chantry's attention there.
Again, you got no proof that they have no proof. [/quote]

Fanwanking that they have proof is what you're doing. I'm basing my stance on the fact that Morrigan isn't a blood mage, and her ritual of carnal contact predates the Circle and specifically involves the taint in the Warden. This is not an act that's public knowledge.

[AlexXIV]

If Morrigan performs the DR it is only a matter of time until everyone concludes that it was blood magic. Never before had a Warden survived killing an archdemon, so it must be among the most powerful magics that exists after it can even take it up with a curse like the blight itself. And you don't think it takes long that the first chantry zealot suspects it is bloodmagic. They don't really need solid proof. They know Morrigan was the Warden's companion if not lover, they know she was there in Denerim and they know the Warden survived what nobody did before. I'd say that's all the chantry must know to fear Morrigan.

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

If Morrigan performs the DR it is only a matter of time until everyone concludes that it was blood magic. Never before had a Warden survived killing an archdemon, so it must be among the most powerful magics that exists after it can even take it up with a curse like the blight itself. And you don't think it takes long that the first chantry zealot suspects it is bloodmagic. They don't really need solid proof. They know Morrigan was the Warden's companion if not lover, they know she was there in Denerim and they know the Warden survived what nobody did before. I'd say that's all the chantry must know to fear Morrigan.

Some of those variables would only apply to a male Warden in a romantic relationship with Morrigan, and even then it's a stretch to say everyone would assume it'd blood magic when nobody but the Wardens know the cost of killing the Archdemon.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If Morrigan performs the DR it is only a matter of time until everyone concludes that it was blood magic. Never before had a Warden survived killing an archdemon, so it must be among the most powerful magics that exists after it can even take it up with a curse like the blight itself. And you don't think it takes long that the first chantry zealot suspects it is bloodmagic. They don't really need solid proof. They know Morrigan was the Warden's companion if not lover, they know she was there in Denerim and they know the Warden survived what nobody did before. I'd say that's all the chantry must know to fear Morrigan.

Some of those variables would only apply to a male Warden in a romantic relationship with Morrigan, and even then it's a stretch to say everyone would assume it'd blood magic when nobody but the Wardens know the cost of killing the Archdemon.

I don't think the Wardens are the only ones who know. I would actually be surprised if the Chantry wouldn't have some sort of intelligence agency which knows everything there is to know. Even about the Wardens and their secrets. I might be wrong, but I am using common sense here. So eventually they will ask around and nobody in all of Thedas will know how it was possible and then they will be sure it was no known magic. And if they rule known magic out only unknown/forbidden magic is left. Heck maybe the Chantry even have people who study bloodmagic just to know their enemy. I am only assuming here that the most powerful faction of Thedas isn't as gullible as leaving secrets of bloodmagic to the Grey Wardens and apostates/maleficar alone.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[Augustei]

By The Way, Just made a poll asking whether or not you like the chantry
social.bioware.com/1392241/polls/14821/

Made another asking if you think Mages should be free from Templars
social.bioware.com/1392241/polls/14823/

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 04 février 2011 - 05:28 .

[AlexXIV]

XxDeonxX wrote...

By The Way, Just made a poll asking whether or not you like the chantry
social.bioware.com/1392241/polls/14821/

Made another asking if you think Mages should be free from Templars
social.bioware.com/1392241/polls/14823/

Well if it is only yes or no, it's no.

[Augustei]

What other options should I have included?

[amillian]

Their MO is agree with us or we burn you at the stake. Whats not to hate?

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Actually if the Chantrys side of the story were true it would not be cultural genocide it would be self defence.. Its Logical to defend the lands of the basis of your order. The Foundation of the chantry is in Val Royeaux so if its destroyed then how would that be good for the chantry?
The Chantry says they wern't involved in the war until the elves were at Val Royeux.. You catagorise the Chantry and Orlais as the same thing, when they aren't. They simply share the same general interests in alot of areas. If Orlais declares war, then the chantry doesn't declare war by default. They do half the time but not always.

Sure it's cultural genocide even IF the Chantry is telling the entire truth (which we both doubt),  They may not be the same thing, but when Orlais says jump the DIvines do tend to say, "How High".  Orlais and the Chantry are completely symbiotic and it is often difficult to tell where one ends and the other starts.....and this is increasingly a problem for the Chantry in anti-Orlesian countries such as Fereldan and Nevarra.

Regardless, the Chantry did not have to destroy the Dales and did not have to outlaw the old Elven religion when they did.  That makes them guilty of cultural genocide.

Also there is nothing said of "Heathen" crimes, they are Heretical. Heathen simply means "non christian or jew" or in this case "non Andrastian" so calling them Heathen crimes is an over-simplification.

Wrong.  Please know the definitions of the words you use.  "Heathen" means "does not follow your religion".  "Heretic" means someone that claims to follow your religion but does so either falsely or does so in error.  Jews during the inquisition were tried as Heretics because most of them were what the Spanish called "conversos" that claimed to have converted to Christianity but didn't.  That made them  Heretics.  "Heathen" and "Heretic" both in game and IRL have rather precise meanings.  Please use them correctly.  The Dalish Elves were and are considered Heathens by the Chantry and always have been.  (So for that matter are the Dwarves.)

Letting the Elves destroy Orlais would also mean, letting the Elves severely damage the chantry, Destroying many of their chapels and churchs in the process and losing them pretty much all their Western power.

The Chantrys reasons for the war are not based on their paganism and the chantry wanting them to convert. The Chantrys reasons are acts of self defence and stopping the Invaders who have committed unforgiveable crimes.
These aren't Pathetic excuses that are obviously wrong. We cant make judgement on the sitaution with so little info to go on and what little info we have all being Bias.

The Exalted March went WAY beyond the defense of Orlais, however.  There is absolutely no indication that the chantry even considered brokering a peace with the Dales once Orlais had been saved.  Absolutely none at all.  Most wars are NOT fought to their bitter end.  The destruction of the Dales was most certainly motivated by religious intolerance and extremism and was a blatent disregard of the promise Andraste made to the elves (and was conveniently removed from the Chant of Light).

Lack of information, is not information. You seem to be pointing out flaws in evidence that isn't really there. Why wait until Val Royeux? We dont know, but because they did doesn't mean that their story is any less likely

Sure it does.  It means the Chantry was not really outraged about anything the Elves did until their own cathedrals were threatened which makes the Chantry's later actions less excuseable.

The Simple Fact of the matter is, which I keep saying is that the Chantrys actions cannot be condemned nor can they be Justified.

Not true.  Even IF the chantry's version were completely true (which we both doubt), there is no reason why the Chantry had to destroy the Dales and outlaw the old religion.  The Chantry wanted to do that and it should and needs to be roundly condemned.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think the Wardens are the only ones who know. I would actually be surprised if the Chantry wouldn't have some sort of intelligence agency which knows everything there is to know. Even about the Wardens and their secrets. I might be wrong, but I am using common sense here. So eventually they will ask around and nobody in all of Thedas will know how it was possible and then they will be sure it was no known magic. And if they rule known magic out only unknown/forbidden magic is left. Heck maybe the Chantry even have people who study bloodmagic just to know their enemy. I am only assuming here that the most powerful faction of Thedas isn't as gullible as leaving secrets of bloodmagic to the Grey Wardens and apostates/maleficar alone.

Considering Duncan's comment about Grey Wardens using blood magic to fight the darkspawn, I'd have to wonder how much they really know. As much as they condemn blood magic, the templars use a form of blood magic to track down mages who run from the Circle. Considering how Grey Wardens are made - it is a form of blood magic - darkspawn blood along with Archdemon blood - I'm not certain how much they really know about the Wardens.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering Duncan's comment about Grey Wardens using blood magic to fight the darkspawn, I'd have to wonder how much they really know. As much as they condemn blood magic, the templars use a form of blood magic to track down mages who run from the Circle. Considering how Grey Wardens are made - it is a form of blood magic - darkspawn blood along with Archdemon blood - I'm not certain how much they really know about the Wardens.

Well Wardens research bloodmagic because of the blights, and chantry have on top of it to deal with demons who also know bloodmagic. I think the Warden's secrets are only secret to the common folk. Or the the majority of nobility etc. I just can't imagine the Chantry leaving them to do what they please. I mean how hard would it be to get a pro-chantry warden to spy for them? Many Wardens are probably quite faithful and followers of the Chantry.

@Deon - I don't know, as many as you want, but if it is only yes and no there is no grey area.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 04 février 2011 - 06:01 .

[LobselVith8]

AlexXIV wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering Duncan's comment about Grey Wardens using blood magic to fight the darkspawn, I'd have to wonder how much they really know. As much as they condemn blood magic, the templars use a form of blood magic to track down mages who run from the Circle. Considering how Grey Wardens are made - it is a form of blood magic - darkspawn blood along with Archdemon blood - I'm not certain how much they really know about the Wardens.

Well Wardens research bloodmagic because of the blights, and chantry have on top of it to deal with demons who also know bloodmagic. I think the Warden's secrets are only secret to the common folk. Or the the majority of nobility etc. I just can't imagine the Chantry leaving them to do what they please. I mean how hard would it be to get a pro-chantry warden to spy for them? Many Wardens are probably quite faithful and followers of the Chantry.

@Deon - I don't know, as many as you want, but if it is only yes and no there is no grey area.

I don't see anyone outside of the Wardens knowing about the Archdemon and the Warden losing their souls to it, considering that if we assume that the secret would have leaked, why doesn't everyone in Thedas know the truth? Clearly, while I know that there are people who know the risks to the Joining (like Anora), nobody seems to know about the cost of killing the Archdemon - but I don't think we can say with any certainty. Then again, if the Orlesian Warden has taken the reigns of Amaranthine and the position of Warden-Commander, doesn't that imply that the Hero of Ferelden did the US instead of the DR? It seems like a lot of hoops to go through to justify the Chantry putting a bounty on Morrigan for being a blood mage, honestly.

[bloodransom]

I think most people are receptive to the situation between the chantry and the circle, and in that respect I feel a sense of reason in their actions. Think of the circle in this respect; you have a group of individuals who have a highly contagious deadly disease that has a 70% infection rate but are only carriers. within these people lies the answer to preventing a worldwide pandemic(redundant but feels appropriate) and increasing the knowledge of human physiology beyond the current level of understanding. however if one of these carriers escapes, or is set loose upon the general populace they could start an event that could trigger a global pandemic. so what do you do? The answer for most would be put them away to protect the general population.



Is that ethical?

Did God tell you to do it?

Is it the right thing?

maybe not, but is it logical? absolutely.



the only problem i see with the chantry is what i see in everything and that is corruption, which is more or less just a human thing. you can get mad at people for being bad people but that wont stop people from being bad. Human nature, you see it time and time again some people just cannot handle authority, and the more absolute the easier it is to misuse that power. Not to mention not all members of the chantry are power hungry bigots some of them are probably good imaginary people.

[LobselVith8]

bloodransom wrote...

I think most people are receptive to the situation between the chantry and the circle, and in that respect I feel a sense of reason in their actions.

But it's an attitude of people in the Andrastian nations that's dissimiliar to what we find in other societies among the Chasind and the people of Rivain- even the remote town of Haven (in spite of their numerous flaws) doesn't mimic this behavior with their own mages. Look, I don't doubt there are people who think they're doing the right thing, but when you imprison people because of what they might do, it's going to cause resentment and unrest. We already witnessed that with Uldred's rebellion and the Mages Collective policing mages outside of Chantry authority. it's a recipe for disaster. It's a war between Templars and Mages just waiting to happen. From the looks of DA2, it's exactly what's going to happen.

I think the Staff of Parlathan backs up the idea that an apostate Hawke might be able to make choices that would lead to the emancipation of mages, given the summary of the item:

"Magic has always run strongly within the Hawke bloodline. The tales passed down from one generation to the next tell of an ancestor named Parthalan, a mage who long ago helped to unite Ferelden under the rule of King Calenhad. Parthalan eventually vanished into legend, fleeing the persecution of the Chantry, but his legacy remains in the hands of his family - along with his hope that one day, mages would achieve the freedom that King Calenhad intended to bring to all men."

bloodransom wrote...

Think of the circle in this respect; you have a group of individuals who have a highly contagious deadly disease that has a 70% infection rate but are only carriers. within these people lies the answer to preventing a worldwide pandemic(redundant but feels appropriate) and increasing the knowledge of human physiology beyond the current level of understanding. however if one of these carriers escapes, or is set loose upon the general populace they could start an event that could trigger a global pandemic. so what do you do? The answer for most would be put them away to protect the general population.

Is that ethical?
Did God tell you to do it?
Is it the right thing?
maybe not, but is it logical? absolutely.

I'd find that analogy more appropriate for a discussion regarding whether we should spare the Messenger or the Architect because even intelligent darkspawn can spread darkspawn disease. As dangerous as people point out mages to be at times, they've also been instrumental in defending the land against the Blights and even enemy incursions by the Qunari armies. The problem is that they're relegated to prisons where they really don't have a voice and where the Order of Templars have the authority. Regardless of what side of this debate we're on, I don't see it ending in any other way but violence - mages fighting templars to be free from the Chantry. It looks to be happening with the meeting in Cumberland and Wynne's concernt that mages will try to break free, with the Chantry responding by trying to kill all the mages.

bloodransom wrote...

the only problem i see with the chantry is what i see in everything and that is corruption, which is more or less just a human thing. you can get mad at people for being bad people but that wont stop people from being bad. Human nature, you see it time and time again some people just cannot handle authority, and the more absolute the easier it is to misuse that power. Not to mention not all members of the chantry are power hungry bigots some of them are probably good imaginary people.

I agree that corruption is everywhere. I don't see the Chantry as evil, but it is opposed to the emancipation of the mages, and mages who seek to be free will inevitably have to deal with the Chantry and the Order of Templars if they genuinely want their freedom. Given that we hear that Kirkwall is pretty much under templar control and we can be an apostate (who is descended from Parlathan, a mage who wanted to see mages free when he helped Calenhad establish Ferelden) I doubt we're going to be forced to serve under the templars, especially given their views on blood mages. I think it's likely to be an option avaliable for people who don't want to side with the Order of Templars and want to see the mages emancipated.

[bloodransom]

I thought it was completely relevant.

imagine what happened in broke circle happened outside the tower away from a host of templars who could not isolate the incident.

Not to be rude but i think people tend to forget that some of these mages can accidentally tear open the fade and unleash a horde of demons whenever they decide to. Also, if some mage turns looney they can set whole villages on fire, make people explode, and summon earthquakes and storms all at the flick of a wrist.

In that respect thats why i chose that analogy, these people cannot help that they are born with the ability to perform magic, however, that amount of power in the hands of any person is a huge risk, and i wouldnt necesarily call the towers prisons. Sure they cannot leave unless they are senior enchantors or on official circle business, however, the circle provides a place for these mages to go without persecution. Also, people forget some of these mages do live outside the circle many serve for nobility around thedas, i.e. honnleath (albeit an exception not the rule). To me its better than being hunted down wherever you go. But no matter what label you put on it someone will always view it as a cage. The mages will want to be free, but people do not have to like it.

another analogy then, To me it is like a 7 year old who found a grenade launcher, and someone saying dont take it away its his he should be free to have fun with it however he wants.

now for an explanation,
why a child; because many mages wield forces so powerful they have little to no actual respect for what they have and in the circle even less respect for what they could do to others.

say for one minute the chantry said, "hey this is a bad idea, you guys can go free, sorry for keeping you here so long, have fun".

you think everything would be peaceful, you think all would go work on a farm and raise cattle?

Fact is it probably wouldn't be bad at first but eventually people will start hunting them down. abominations will form, the fade will be torn, mages will become angry for being persecuted then there will be an uprising and eventually the emperium.

And another thing, how would local governments police mages. Station templars in every city? It is quite obvious most templars aren't much of a match against abominations and talented mages.

what could be done but probably wont would be a slow transition. I would still require mages to have to provide a means to find them. but i would like to see somthing like the circle run by mages. a group of mages who would regulate themslves, hunt down those who preyed on innocent people and those became maleficars

In my eyes the chantry isnt all bad, but they are waaaay off base on some things, like traquilization, and the common execution of apostates.

Modifié par bloodransom, 05 février 2011 - 07:15 .

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...
The Exalted March went WAY beyond the defense of Orlais, however.
 There is absolutely no indication that the chantry even considered
brokering a peace with the Dales once Orlais had been saved.  Absolutely
none at all.  Most wars are NOT fought to their bitter end.  The
destruction of the Dales was most certainly motivated by religious
intolerance and extremism and was a blatent disregard of the promise
Andraste made to the elves (and was conveniently removed from the Chant
of Light).

The same can be said about the Elven defense going WAY beyond defending their lands when defense turned into Invasion and slaughter of innocents.. If you believe that second part.. What is true however is that they did push further than their own borders. There was no indication that the elves even considered brokering peace with Orlais when the Dales had been saved. Absolutely none at all. Most wars are NOT fought to their bitter end.

The
destruction of the Dales was most certainly motivated by religious
intolerance and extremism

Not true. Regardless of the followup actions taken by the chantry. The original motivation of the war definitly cannot be determined by the current data at hand.

Sure it does.  It means the Chantry was not really outraged about
anything the Elves did until their own cathedrals were threatened which
makes the Chantry's later actions less excuseable.

How does it make them less excuseable?? Because the Chantry was not really outraged by what the elves were doing until they slaughtered the priests within their cathedrals and burnt them to the ground (If it happened) Because they did not care for the war before then it makes their actions less excuseable? No... If that were the scenario their actions would be far more exscusable.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't think the Wardens are the only ones who know. I would actually be surprised if the Chantry wouldn't have some sort of intelligence agency which knows everything there is to know. Even about the Wardens and their secrets. I might be wrong, but I am using common sense here. So eventually they will ask around and nobody in all of Thedas will know how it was possible and then they will be sure it was no known magic. And if they rule known magic out only unknown/forbidden magic is left. Heck maybe the Chantry even have people who study bloodmagic just to know their enemy. I am only assuming here that the most powerful faction of Thedas isn't as gullible as leaving secrets of bloodmagic to the Grey Wardens and apostates/maleficar alone.

Considering Duncan's comment about Grey Wardens using blood magic to fight the darkspawn, I'd have to wonder how much they really know. As much as they condemn blood magic, the templars use a form of blood magic to track down mages who run from the Circle. Considering how Grey Wardens are made - it is a form of blood magic - darkspawn blood along with Archdemon blood - I'm not certain how much they really know about the Wardens.

The Chantry is forced to overlook the Grey Wardens actions because if they wanted to call an Exalted March, They would have to call it on the nation of the Anderfels which is under Grey Warden control.. That would mean Orlesian and chantry forces would have to march through Nevarra.. Which They certainly wont let that happen. So For the Chantry to actually call an Exalted March on The Grey Wardens and by extension the Anderfels.. They would have to defeat Nevarra first. And by then their armys would either be completly destroyed or Severely devistated.

They could possibly get The Support of Antiva... who doesn't have an army.. The Anderfels would get Tevinter support.. Rivain seems like they would remain neutral and the Free Marches would probably side with Nevarra.. So the best the chantry could muster is a small army of templars against the entire nation of the Anderfels and all its Grey Wardens

[LobselVith8]

bloodransom wrote...

I thought it was completely relevant.

imagine what happened in broke circle happened outside the tower away from a host of templars who could not isolate the incident.

Except Broken Circle happened because the mages were trying to free themselves from the Chantry, so it wouldn't have happened without them. We also have the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind tribes where mages aren't imprisoned by the Chantry or controlled by the templars.

bloodransom wrote...

Not to be rude but i think people tend to forget that some of these mages can accidentally tear open the fade and unleash a horde of demons whenever they decide to. Also, if some mage turns looney they can set whole villages on fire, make people explode, and summon earthquakes and storms all at the flick of a wrist.

Isn't that an argument for properly teaching mages to use their powers, not imprisoning them under an order that grants them no rights and can give them a lobotomy or kill them with no oversight?

bloodransom wrote...

In that respect thats why i chose that analogy, these people cannot help that they are born with the ability to perform magic, however, that amount of power in the hands of any person is a huge risk, and i wouldnt necesarily call the towers prisons.

The VO for the Magi Origin calls the Circle Tower a prison, so I don't see the problem with the term.

bloodransom wrote...

Sure they cannot leave unless they are senior enchantors or on official circle business, however, the circle provides a place for these mages to go without persecution.

They're persecuted in the Andrastian nations because of the Chantry. That's why mages aren't killed for being mages in Haven, among the Dalish clans or the Chasind tribes, or even in the nation of Rivain.

bloodransom wrote...

Also, people forget some of these mages do live outside the circle many serve for nobility around thedas, i.e. honnleath (albeit an exception not the rule). To me its better than being hunted down wherever you go. But no matter what label you put on it someone will always view it as a cage. The mages will want to be free, but people do not have to like it.

You mean the one war hero who, with Shale, helped Moira the Rebel Queen and Maric the Savior, which is why he was living outside the Circle with a wife and children (the former is forbidden in some Circles, the latter is always forbidden unless the mage is a Grey Warden and then no longer under Chantry control)?

bloodransom wrote...

another analogy then, To me it is like a 7 year old who found a grenade launcher, and someone saying dont take it away its his he should be free to have fun with it however he wants.

now for an explanation,
why a child; because many mages wield forces so powerful they have little to no actual respect for what they have and in the circle even less respect for what they could do to others.

say for one minute the chantry said, "hey this is a bad idea, you guys can go free, sorry for keeping you here so long, have fun".

you think everything would be peaceful, you think all would go work on a farm and raise cattle?

Then, wouldn't imprisoning them when they've done nothing wrong under an oppressive system that is causing unrest and revolutions a bad idea? From the trailer, we apparently see mages and templars going to war.

bloodransom wrote...

And another thing, how would local governments police mages. Station templars in every city? It is quite obvious most templars aren't much of a match against abominations and talented mages.

Ian has addressed this point several times about having a policing organization that consists of mages and non-mages.

bloodransom wrote...

In my eyes the chantry isnt all bad, but they are waaaay off base on some things, like traquilization, and the common execution of apostates.

The problem is that the Chantry has no intention of relenting on their control of the mages, and it's going to cause a war between the two. While many have recommended a slow transition for the Circles, the Chantry has no intention of abiding by such ideals, even when the Hero of Ferelden requests the emancipation of the mages of Ferelden. It looks like it'll be war between the Order of Templars and the Mages of Thedas.

XxDeonxX wrote...

The Chantry is forced to overlook the Grey Wardens actions because if they wanted to call an Exalted March, They would have to call it on the nation of the Anderfels which is under Grey Warden control.. That would mean Orlesian and chantry forces would have to march through Nevarra.. Which They certainly wont let that happen. So For the Chantry to actually call an Exalted March on The Grey Wardens and by extension the Anderfels.. They would have to defeat Nevarra first. And by then their armys would either be completly destroyed or Severely devistated.

In the scene that was disabled because it bugged the Landsmeet, if Knight-Commander Greagoir found out that the Warden was a blood mage, he would eventually try to kill him (along with the other templars and mages in the room). Clearly, the Chantry doesn't simply overlook the issue.

XxDeonxX wrote...

They could possibly get The Support of Antiva... who doesn't have an army.. The Anderfels would get Tevinter support.. Rivain seems like they would remain neutral and the Free Marches would probably side with Nevarra.. So the best the chantry could muster is a small army of templars against the entire nation of the Anderfels and all its Grey Wardens

Grey Wardens are neutral, so I don't imagine a war would happen unless it threatened their ability to combat the darkspawn, and the Chantry of Andraste isn't going to destroy the Wardens when they're looked on as heroes in Thedas (even by many Fereldens despite having been kicked out for trying to replace the King two centuries ago).

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The Exalted March went WAY beyond the defense of Orlais, however.
 There is absolutely no indication that the chantry even considered
brokering a peace with the Dales once Orlais had been saved.  Absolutely
none at all.  Most wars are NOT fought to their bitter end.  The
destruction of the Dales was most certainly motivated by religious
intolerance and extremism and was a blatent disregard of the promise
Andraste made to the elves (and was conveniently removed from the Chant
of Light).

The same can be said about the Elven defense going WAY beyond defending their lands when defense turned into Invasion and slaughter of innocents.. If you believe that second part.. What is true however is that they did push further than their own borders. There was no indication that the elves even considered brokering peace with Orlais when the Dales had been saved. Absolutely none at all. Most wars are NOT fought to their bitter end.

We don't know any innocent people were slaughtered, that's the problem. We have claims by Orlais about what happened, and claims from the Dalish. One side says the war was started because the Dalish attacked the town of Red Crossing, and the other says the Chantry tried to force conversion and sent in templars when they kicked out their Chantry missionaries. There's no proof who started the war, but based on what we do know - Orlais did invade Ferelden, where women were raped (like Loghain's mother) and the Chantry fully supported the invasion in the name of the Maker.

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

The destruction of the Dales was most certainly motivated by religious intolerance and extremism

Not true. Regardless of the followup actions taken by the chantry. The original motivation of the war definitly cannot be determined by the current data at hand.

There's no evidence either way, but if one were to make an educated guess, Orlais has a history of taking over other nations and claiming them as their own - Ferelden only being the latest nation they commandered, with the full support of the Chantry (which is why Maric and Loghain contemplates dissolving the Chantry in Ferelden), and the Orlesians were kicked out only 30 years prior to DA:O.

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Sure it does.  It means the Chantry was not really outraged about anything the Elves did until their own cathedrals were threatened which makes the Chantry's later actions less excuseable.

How does it make them less excuseable?? Because the Chantry was not really outraged by what the elves were doing until they slaughtered the priests within their cathedrals and burnt them to the ground (If it happened) Because they did not care for the war before then it makes their actions less excuseable? No... If that were the scenario their actions would be far more exscusable.

Ian means the loss of their religious power center - not the Orlesian claims that elves attacked the innocent. The moment that the Chantry's center of power was threatened, an Exalted March was called against the Dales. If the war started because the Chantry was trying to force the conversion of the elves and wouldn't take no for an answer, then the elves were merely trying to prevent a nemesis from being able to re-organize themselves by deconstructing the nation that neighbored them and threatened their way of life.

[SkittlesKat96]

I dislike the chantry because of Morrigan and her talk about the old Gods, plus the chantry is like organized religion back in the medieval ages to some degree which is scary.