1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Quoting people out of context is a very pitifull strategy.
You know very well that NOT what either of us meant...But hey, that would require some actual though to be put into this. [/quote]

Very well, because you insisted:

*SNIP*
[/quote]

You just prove me right.
You infer into my posts what isn't there.

Read CAREFULLY and you may finally get it.


You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

A sarcastical remark made by me.
Where does it say the Collective is LED by abominations? Nowhere..


Again, for some one who uses overblown statemenets and exagerations all the time, you are poor at detecting it when other people use it even for laughs...

Same thing for Emeperor..but I can let him defend himself. Not that it is needed, for your accusations are absurd and transparent. A 5-year old would have no problem debunking you...

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 février 2011 - 09:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ian, keep real Religion out of this thread.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ian, keep real Religion out of this thread.

I think it's perfectly fair to explore the parallels between the Chantry in DA and the midaeval Roman Catholic Church.  Indeed, I would posit that the game itself virtually invites such comparisons.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

Not really...real religion is a hot enough topic (and I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote on that topic too) without draging into a topic that is already so loaded.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Not really...real religion is a hot enough topic (and I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote on that topic too) without draging into a topic that is already so loaded.

Not your call.

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

I can't order you around. It's advice.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lob, didn't I already explain to you what I said in that quote? So why do you keep trying to pass it on like something else? I said the CIRCLES, as in the institution, were property of the Chantry, which it is. The indivdual mage is not property of the Chantry, but he is a member of the Circle, and needs to abide by their rules.



PS. Isn't it against forum rules to discus real world politics and religion?

[kane442]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lob, didn't I already explain to you what I said in that quote? So why do you keep trying to pass it on like something else? I said the CIRCLES, as in the institution, were property of the Chantry, which it is. The indivdual mage is not property of the Chantry, but he is a member of the Circle, and needs to abide by their rules.

PS. Isn't it against forum rules to discus real world politics and religion?

i dont know if its against the rules but it never ends well i know that much...also its kinnda off topic what was asked was dose anyone like the chantry ..for some yes for some no... its not really ment to be a debate just got turned into that .....as posted before no i dont like um for the most part...although i agree with a school for mages and the harrowing 

Modifié par kane442, 11 février 2011 - 12:03 .

[Icinix]

I like them.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

They didn't help during the Second Blight, but there's no proof any aid was requested. The Emerald Knights are there to guard the borders of the Dales, after all.[/quote]

Orlias implies they did ask for help. Of coruse, they could be lying..

But the Blight IS a danger than threatens EVERYONE. Dales AND Orlais.
It would take extraordinarily stupid leaders on both sides to not ask/grant help. [/quote]

No codex entry or person ever claims Orlais asked the Dales for aid. None.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If they didn't ask for help, what do you expect? If the Emerald Knights left their post, who would warn the people about any possible darkspawn armies marching towards the Dales?[/quote]

If the Darkspawn destroyed the sorrounding nations, who would be left to help the Dales?
But again, there are people who are too enclosed in their own little world to see the big picture (like Loghain), so it is possible..... [/quote]

The Dales had mages, and mages made all the difference in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari, so it's difficult to say what was going on. All we know is that Orlais didn't ask for help, and the Dalish claim that the other nations grew cold towards them because they refused to worship the Maker.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for defending themselves, it all depends on who started the war. And we don't really know.[/quote]

I'd say you always have the right to defend your own city/home/family, regardless if your country was the one that started the war or not.
This paints Orlais negatively, but then again, this is only my oppinion and it's paints practicely every country in history negatively. [/quote]

And if the Dalish were defending their family, then they had the right to fight back against Orlesian armies and the templars. Again, it depends on who started the war.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry of Andraste has a symbiotic relationship with the Orlesian Empire. It's not dependent on other nations for anything. They control all the Circles throughout Thedas, and used mages to fight the Qunari armies during the New Exalted Marches.[/quote]

Regardless what you think, the emperor of Orlais is not the puppet of the Chantry. At least there is no proof that it is so. And Orlais is still just one country.
Again, would the Divine (or any leader for that matter) risk a large internal war that would weaken Andrastian nations, just for the sake of the Dalish? From a political/pragmatical standpoint, it is a delicate situation.

And the Chatnry doesn't directly command mages into war. [/quote]

I never claimed the Emperor or Empress were a puppet to the Divine, but the Chantry does have a relationship with the Empire. The Chantry supported the occupation of Ferelden, after all. So far you've failed to prove that the Chantry calling a "holy war" against an enemy would be out of their hands, especially when we see that the end result was elves being converted to the Chantry.

Also, you're wrong about the mages. The templars control the mages, per the latest codex that states such. The Chantry controls the Circles, per David Gaider expaining why the Magi boon is turned down.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't suspect or infer the murder of D'Sims at the hands of the templars - it happened. I don't suspect or infer the templars placing a bounty on Morrigan due to their suspicions of her being a blood mage - it happened. Anieirin was nearly killed because he was labelled as maleficar, and there's no evidence that he ever was or is one. We also know First Enchanter Irving had no say and didn't see the evidence against Jowan. You are welcome to believe that the Chantry and the Order of Templars are in the right, but I don't see it.[/quote]

You have no specific on the D'Sims case - you don't know exactly what happened.
You got no proof templars got no proof on Morrigan. This was covered before and your claims were debunked.
You go no proof Aenerin WASN'T a maleficar (other than he sez he wasn't one)
And most importantly, you got NO proof that the Aenerin and D'Sims cases (assuming templars are 100% guilty in both) are not an exception.
You got no proof Irwing wasn't allowd to see evidence - all we know is that he didn't see it YET. Nor do we know the exact procedure.

So no..you got NO evidence. No proof.
You got NOTHING.
Call me when you get some real proof. [/quote]

We know D'Sims was murdered by tempars who thought he was a mage, and we know that he wasn't a mage. A regular person isn't a threat to armored soldiers, especially when he's carrying a staff he can't use.
We know Morrigan has displayed no blood magic abilities, so it doesn't seem likely anyone would think she is a blood mage.
We have no proof Aneirin was a maleficar, and nobody treats it as fact.
And most importantly, Lotion, you have no proof to back up your assertions that the templars were innocent.
Furthermore, Irving said he didn't see the evidence, and the Rite of Tranquility was already signed.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

You don't poke holes in the arguments. You fan fic that D'Sims was so dangerous when he pretended to heal people that armored templars had to kill him. You fan fic that Morrigan could secretly be a blood mage in order to justify the bounty on her in Witch Hunt. You fan fic how Aneirin is secretly a maleficar and hiding it from every Dalish clan member. All you do is provide speculation in leui of evidence. You claim it's necessary for mages to be imprisoned, but we see that the inception of their imprisonment had nothing to do with protecting innocents from mages (History of the Circle codex) and even the limitations placed on magic and the establishment of the Circle had to do with Emperor Drakon's religious beliefs (History of the Chantry Part Four).[/quote]

So any alternate explanation that fits with know facts that you don't like is a "fanfic".

I ask you again:
PROVE to me that D'Sims didn't act suspiciously or rashly (like pulling a knife or trying to bluff/scare templrs into backing off) [/quote]

We know he carried a staff that he couldn't use because he wasn't a real mage, and that he pretended to heal people. How is a regular person so dangerous that armed and armored soldiers need to cut off his head? This makes no sense at all.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

PROVE to me that the Tempalrs don't have any evidence on Morrigan. We know she is fully capable of using what they would label blood magic. [/quote]

A ritual of carnal contact doesn't constitute knowledge of blood magic.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Proof, proof, proof....  I aks it again and again, you provide none whatsoever.

If you cannot provide it, then stop claiming your theories are facts. They are not. [/quote]

None of the facts that we know support your assertions and defense of the templars, that's the problem. D'Sims couldn't have been so dangerous that he had to be killed by armored soldiers, because he was a carrying a staff that he couldn't use. Morrigan never displays any blood magic abilities during DA:O or Witch Hunt.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't condone imprisoning innocent people because of what they may do, especially in an oppressive system many seem to be fighting against.[/quote]

In general, netiher do I. But this is not the real world, and mages don't exist here.
Governments imprison people if they deem it necessary.
You say people cannot be imprisoned based on potential.

They can if that potential for danger/damage gets too high. You may call that system immoral, but isn't it also immoral and irresponsible to let the mages roam free?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It's how the world operates. [/quote]

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the Dalish clans don't imprison mages. Clearly, there are alternatives to what the Chantry does, and there's no proof what the Chantry does is necessary.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You just prove me right.
You infer into my posts what isn't there.

Read CAREFULLY and you may finally get it.


You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

A sarcastical remark made by me.
Where does it say the Collective is LED by abominations? Nowhere..

Let's see how accurate that is:

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mages of the Collective might not be abominations currently, but that does not mean tehy are safe from possession. No matter how you put it, no matter which examples you bring forth, every mage everywhere is constantly under threat of possession. There is no use denying it. The lore states as much. So it stands to reason that some mages in the collective, at some point in the past or in the future might have been or will become abominations, and once that happens, the abomination won't be contained in a tower like circle mages, but it will be free somewhere on the countryside.
The amount of mages amongst the Dalish and the Cult of Andraste is so small that they would have few troubles with abominations to begin with, add to that that they probably can't control them, so they kill them. That is the sole reason we don't see abominations in those groups. Aside from the fact that they are rare to begin with. Just because we don't see them doesn't mean they don't exist or is somehow immune to possession.

Also, the Chantry owns all the Circles. If Ferelden were to expel the Templars and "free" the mages. It would basically be theft of Chantry "property", and borderline heretical. So of course that would result in an Exalted March against Ferelden.

You later supported this view without sarcasm:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Theft of Chantry property? No. It would be undermining their control and authority in an area they feel the Maker has given them complete control. And it would also be just another excuse to force a monarch in line.

Pharse it as you wish, it doesn't change what it is. The Cirlces are under Chatnry control and they run them. Ergo, they belong to the Chatnry.

You're lying, yet again.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again, for some one who uses overblown statemenets and exagerations all the time, you are poor at detecting it when other people use it even for laughs...

Same thing for Emeperor..but I can let him defend himself. Not that it is needed, for your accusations are absurd and transparent. A 5-year old would have no problem debunking you...

The quotes speak for themselves, Lotion. I don't need to do anything more than provide them to disprove your claim.

[SpeakingInSilence]

IanPolaris wrote...

SpeakingInSilence,

Actually the RCC was less forgiving than other institutions in Italy w/r/t Jews, and frankly Pope Pious XII did not speak out againt German antisemitism to say the least. In fact there are some very dark rumors about the Pope in this regard. Also most of Italty including prominanent members of Benito's Facist Party were aghast the the racial laws passed under pressure from Germany. Anti-semitism never had the support in Italy that it had elsewhere in Europe, and the RCC did not do much to take a stand...something even JPII admitted much later (and this contraversy held up the beatification of Pious XII).

As for the rest, you need to review your RCC theology. The RCC until very recently has openly hated Jews as the betrayers of Christ. That is a simple fact. [As for opposing the Axis in 1944 when Rome was under allied oocupation, that's a real leap of moral courage....not!]

It also is completely besides the point. The Chanty despite it's somewhat different theology is clearly the DA analog of the midaeval RCC Church...and what matters here is not the theology but policial and social impact of that much social power in the hands of an organized priesthood.

-Polaris

Edit:  See http://www.religious...g/vat_hol11.htm

The RCC changed it's official policy towards Jews but only in the last half of the 20th century.

http://www.religious...g/vat_hol13.htm

The above link specifically details the change in Theology by the RCC by Pope John-Paul II.

Wow,
I'm pretty sure you probably didn't read anything I just wrote.
Usually the case with people with prejudice. Here are some more links
from  a Jewish websites that say
otherwise. http://www.jewishvir...itism/pius.html.
Also, if Pope Pius was helping out the Axis why would he be in a ploy
to assassinate Hitler? Also you ignored the fact he appointed several
prominent Jewish leaders to his papacy. You also ignored the post
where I said that Saint Benedict and many Popes urged for crusaders to
LEAVE the Jews alone, with Benedict going as far as calling them,
"Elder Brothers." You obviously don't know a lot about the
crusades, so here are links to experts in the field. People who know
about the crusades a little better then whatever you learn
in religulous. http://www.nationalr...thomas-f-madden
http://www.crusades-...uswarriors.html
http://www.sas.upenn...03/edwards.html
http://hnn.us/articles/1398.html

All
those people who wrote those articles are experts in their fields.
Furthermore there is no modern RCC. And never ever did any pope call
for violence against the Jews. There was some bad popes, and there
was some popes who wanted to convert Jews, but never once that called
upon genocide against them.

Modifié par SpeakingInSilence, 11 février 2011 - 03:00 .

[LightningSamus]

You see how dwarves worship their ancestors.

Regilions are interesting but i don't agree with any of them and the people who represent them just follow blindly.

Modifié par LightningSamus, 11 février 2011 - 03:04 .

[Augustei]

I don't think the Chantry does directly control mages and can order them to war. Because the Chantry was against Maric and Loghains rebellion in The Stolen Throne. And yet, later on in the book they got the support of the circle while at the same time The Chantry was still condemning their actions.. I dont know why that played out like that.. But im thinking maybe the Templars do control the mages. But nobody outside the Templars does, No other level of the chantry has a direct control over the templars but more only extended control over the templars. But since the Templars in Ferelden were Ferelden born they just probably decided to rebel against the order they were a part of and put their homeland first.

Also this question is a bit off topic but do you think Templars would absolutely hate the seekers? or do you think they would just be sort of neutral with them? 

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 11 février 2011 - 03:18 .

[Augustei]

Ever noticed how the people the templars wrongly accuse as Maleficar or Blood Mages are criminals anyway? Well Exept Anerin.. But D'sims was a scammer who would have probably been killed anyway when they revealed his crimes. Morrigan was a Maleficar which does give the Templars the right to hunt her and justify it.. But yeah they said she was a Blood Mage which she possibly isn't.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

I don't think the Chantry does directly control mages and can order them to war. Because the Chantry was against Maric and Loghains rebellion in The Stolen Throne. And yet, later on in the book they got the support of the circle while at the same time The Chantry was still condemning their actions.. I dont know why that played out like that.. But im thinking maybe the Templars do control the mages. But nobody outside the Templars does, No other level of the chantry has a direct control over the templars but more only extended control over the templars. But since the Templars in Ferelden were Ferelden born they just probably decided to rebel against the order they were a part of and put their homeland first.

Knight-Commander Greagoir prevented any further mages from participating in Ostagar, only allowing seven mages to stop the darkspawn in spite of the King's request for more mages, and this very issue can be brought up by a Warden from the Circle of Magi who says that the Circle will do what the Chantry tells it to do - to which Alistair replies that "technically" the Circle is independent (which he clearly knows is b.s., further proved by the existance of the Magi boon that asks for the Circle to be given independence) and that they don't know the Chantry won't agree to help them.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Ever noticed how the people the templars wrongly accuse as Maleficar or Blood Mages are criminals anyway? Well Exept Anerin.. But D'sims was a scammer who would have probably been killed anyway when they revealed his crimes. Morrigan was a Maleficar which does give the Templars the right to hunt her and justify it.. But yeah they said she was a Blood Mage which she possibly isn't.

Pretending to heal people is a crime punishable by death?

Technically, one could argue Morrigan is conscripted into the Warden army, and therefore outside of Chantry control. That may very well be what the Morrigan romanced Commander of the Grey tells the Chantry and its templars, which is why the bounty is only mentioned for the Orlesian Warden.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

I don't think the Chantry does directly control mages and can order them to war. Because the Chantry was against Maric and Loghains rebellion in The Stolen Throne. And yet, later on in the book they got the support of the circle while at the same time The Chantry was still condemning their actions.. I dont know why that played out like that.. But im thinking maybe the Templars do control the mages. But nobody outside the Templars does, No other level of the chantry has a direct control over the templars but more only extended control over the templars. But since the Templars in Ferelden were Ferelden born they just probably decided to rebel against the order they were a part of and put their homeland first.

Knight-Commander Greagoir prevented any further mages from participating in Ostagar, only allowing seven mages to stop the darkspawn in spite of the King's request for more mages, and this very issue can be brought up by a Warden from the Circle of Magi who says that the Circle will do what the Chantry tells it to do - to which Alistair replies that "technically" the Circle is independent (which he clearly knows is b.s., further proved by the existance of the Magi boon that asks for the Circle to be given independence) and that they don't know the Chantry won't agree to help them.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Ever noticed how the people the templars wrongly accuse as Maleficar or Blood Mages are criminals anyway? Well Exept Anerin.. But D'sims was a scammer who would have probably been killed anyway when they revealed his crimes. Morrigan was a Maleficar which does give the Templars the right to hunt her and justify it.. But yeah they said she was a Blood Mage which she possibly isn't.

Pretending to heal people is a crime punishable by death?

Technically, one could argue Morrigan is conscripted into the Warden army, and therefore outside of Chantry control. That may very well be what the Morrigan romanced Commander of the Grey tells the Chantry and its templars, which is why the bounty is only mentioned for the Orlesian Warden.

Not disagreeing with you at all, its all true but what of the case of the mages joining the war with Maric and Loghain while the Chantry was condemning them. Whats your opinion on the matter?

Also with the D'sims case he was scamming them, I'm probably wrong its probably a punishment or torture or something and not death. Might be death though. I have no idea what the punishment for scamming is in medieval times

[Mlaar]

LobselVith8 wrote...
None of the facts that we know support your assertions and defense of the templars, that's the problem. D'Sims couldn't have been so dangerous that he had to be killed by armored soldiers, because he was a carrying a staff that he couldn't use. Morrigan never displays any blood magic abilities during DA:O or Witch Hunt.

What of the facts we dont know? for every one event shown thier a 1000 more happening they can't show every little detail in the world.. You are basing an arguement on minimal details.
No idea how you played your DA:O game but the Morrigan in my world would clearly have been seen using blood magic by mutiple people.
If you had readily available the entire history of the land maybe then you could put forth an arguement that carries weight but at this moment in time you have a few facts and you've filled in the rest with guesswork that fits your ideal,

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Not disagreeing with you at all, its all true but what of the case of the mages joining the war with Maric and Loghain while the Chantry was condemning them. Whats your opinion on the matter?

Wilhelm's aid to the Rebel Queen and Maric the Savior (with Shale) was rewarded with his freedom, which is why he had a wife and children.

Mlaar wrote...

What of the facts we dont know? for every one event shown thier a 1000 more happening they can't show every little detail in the world.. You are basing an arguement on minimal details.

I'm basing the argument on the details we have: innocent people being imprisoned because of a nonviolent protest mages held in a cathedral centuries ago (History of the Circle codex).

Mlaar wrote...

No idea how you played your DA:O game but the Morrigan in my world would clearly have been seen using blood magic by mutiple people.

You mean the same game mechanics that allow Wynne to be a blood mage?

Mlaar wrote...

If you had readily available the entire history of the land maybe then you could put forth an arguement that carries weight but at this moment in time you have a few facts and you've filled in the rest with guesswork that fits your ideal,

Citing codex entries and story examples isn't guesswork, Mlaar.

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Wilhelm's aid to the Rebel Queen and Maric the Savior (with Shale) was rewarded with his freedom, which is why he had a wife and children.

Yeah but Maric and Loghain got the actual support of the circle of magi before they even got the support of the chantry and while the chantry was still condemning their actions

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

If they didn't ask for help, what do you expect? If the Emerald Knights left their post, who would warn the people about any possible darkspawn armies marching towards the Dales?[/quote]

If the Darkspawn destroyed the sorrounding nations, who would be left to help the Dales?
But again, there are people who are too enclosed in their own little world to see the big picture (like Loghain), so it is possible..... [/quote]

The Dales had mages, and mages made all the difference in the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari, so it's difficult to say what was going on. All we know is that Orlais didn't ask for help, and the Dalish claim that the other nations grew cold towards them because they refused to worship the Maker.[/quote]

The Dales had mages? What the hell does THAT have to do with anything????

And no, we DON'T know what you claim. As always, full of BS.


In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn
in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from
nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing
hostility between the Dales and Orlais. Border skirmishes escalated into
full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red
Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry,
which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear
and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human
sacrifice. By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were
on the doorstep of Val Royeaux.


At this point, the Chantry called for a holy war against the elves that
became known as the Exalted March of the Dales. While the elves
eventually sacked Val Royeaux and pushed well into human lands,
Halamshiral was conquered and the elves were completely crushed by 2:20
Glory. The Dales were appropriated by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven
settlements and forbade worship of the elven gods[3]. Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as Alienages, within human settlements, becoming the City Elves. Some elves, however, refused to give up their worship or their dream of their own homeland. These became the Dalish, retaining the name of their second lost homeland and vowing to keep elven language, lore and religion alive.

A few interesting things to note...




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

As for defending themselves, it all depends on who started the war. And we don't really know.[/quote]

I'd say you always have the right to defend your own city/home/family, regardless if your country was the one that started the war or not.
This paints Orlais negatively, but then again, this is only my oppinion and it's paints practicely every country in history negatively. [/quote]

And if the Dalish were defending their family, then they had the right to fight back against Orlesian armies and the templars. Again, it depends on who started the war.[/quote]

You miss the obvious and repeat what I already said.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Regardless what you think, the emperor of Orlais is not the puppet of the Chantry. At least there is no proof that it is so. And Orlais is still just one country.
Again, would the Divine (or any leader for that matter) risk a large internal war that would weaken Andrastian nations, just for the sake of the Dalish? From a political/pragmatical standpoint, it is a delicate situation.
[/quote]

I never claimed the Emperor or Empress were a puppet to the Divine, but the Chantry does have a relationship with the Empire. The Chantry supported the occupation of Ferelden, after all. So far you've failed to prove that the Chantry calling a "holy war" against an enemy would be out of their hands, especially when we see that the end result was elves being converted to the Chantry. [/quote]

And you have failed to provide ANY prrof that the Chantry did have full control over the war. Common sense and historical precedents dictate that it isn't the case however.
You got several nations involved in a time where communications are extreemly slow and tensions are high.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You have no specific on the D'Sims case - you don't know exactly what happened.
You got no proof templars got no proof on Morrigan. This was covered before and your claims were debunked.
You go no proof Aenerin WASN'T a maleficar (other than he sez he wasn't one)
And most importantly, you got NO proof that the Aenerin and D'Sims cases (assuming templars are 100% guilty in both) are not an exception.
You got no proof Irwing wasn't allowd to see evidence - all we know is that he didn't see it YET. Nor do we know the exact procedure.

So no..you got NO evidence. No proof.
You got NOTHING.
Call me when you get some real proof. [/quote]

We know D'Sims was murdered by tempars who thought he was a mage, and we know that he wasn't a mage. A regular person isn't a threat to armored soldiers, especially when he's carrying a staff he can't use.
We know Morrigan has displayed no blood magic abilities, so it doesn't seem likely anyone would think she is a blood mage.
We have no proof Aneirin was a maleficar, and nobody treats it as fact.
And most importantly, Lotion, you have no proof to back up your assertions that the templars were innocent.
Furthermore, Irving said he didn't see the evidence, and the Rite of Tranquility was already signed.[/quote]

D'Sims was killed, but YOU DON'T KNOW THE SPECIFICS. So shut up about it already. You're too entrentched into your position ot even thinks. A regular person is no threat to a templar? Or really? Are daggers uddenly harmles? And let's not forget that the temaprs THOUGHT he was a maleficar. If he thretened them or did a sudden move - anything resembling magic - it isn't uncocievable that the templars reacted.
After all, you dont' have to have a gun for a ploice officer to shoot you. If you have something that resembles a gun and so some rapid movements, a ploice officer may panic and shoot. That would be an act of self-defense. Actually a terrible mistake, but the police officer is still somewhat justified.
Same thing here.
All that is needed is for the templars to think they, or the pople near them were in danger.

We KNOW Morrigan displayed magic SHE HERSELF claims poeple would label as blood magic.

I don't even need to repeat myself on the others. You got no proof. You got assertions. You got theories. Fantasises. Fanfiction!




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So any alternate explanation that fits with know facts that you don't like is a "fanfic".

I ask you again:
PROVE to me that D'Sims didn't act suspiciously or rashly (like pulling a knife or trying to bluff/scare templrs into backing off) [/quote]

We know he carried a staff that he couldn't use because he wasn't a real mage, and that he pretended to heal people. How is a regular person so dangerous that armed and armored soldiers need to cut off his head? This makes no sense at all.[/quote]


See above post.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Proof, proof, proof....  I aks it again and again, you provide none whatsoever.

If you cannot provide it, then stop claiming your theories are facts. They are not. [/quote]

None of the facts that we know support your assertions and defense of the templars, that's the problem. D'Sims couldn't have been so dangerous that he had to be killed by armored soldiers, because he was a carrying a staff that he couldn't use. Morrigan never displays any blood magic abilities during DA:O or Witch Hunt.[/qutoe]

Wrong on both acounts. Read above for both.
Epic fail.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
In general, netiher do I. But this is not the real world, and mages don't exist here.
Governments imprison people if they deem it necessary.
You say people cannot be imprisoned based on potential.

They can if that potential for danger/damage gets too high. You may call that system immoral, but isn't it also immoral and irresponsible to let the mages roam free?

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It's how the world operates. [/quote]

The nation of Rivain, the Chasind tribes, and the Dalish clans don't imprison mages. Clearly, there are alternatives to what the Chantry does, and there's no proof what the Chantry does is necessary.[/quote]

Those nations also seem to have fewer mages AND have to deal with the death and destruction of abomination ramapges (that, or they let templars take care of their abominations). That is neither better by any stretch, nor is it anything the people would accept.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 février 2011 - 05:12 .

[Savvie]

I like the Chantry, but I hate the chanting! That man in Lothering by the chantry board always got on my nerves.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You just prove me right.
You infer into my posts what isn't there.

Read CAREFULLY and you may finally get it.


You mean the bunch full of blood mages and abominations that hires other people to take care of their mess?

A sarcastical remark made by me.
Where does it say the Collective is LED by abominations? Nowhere..

Let's see how accurate that is:


You later supported this view without sarcasm:

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

tool_bot wrote...

Theft of Chantry property? No. It would be undermining their control and authority in an area they feel the Maker has given them complete control. And it would also be just another excuse to force a monarch in line.

Pharse it as you wish, it doesn't change what it is. The Cirlces are under Chatnry control and they run them. Ergo, they belong to the Chatnry.

You're lying, yet again.

I said the Circles are under Chantry control..And the Circles (institution) are effectively their property (or domain).Where exactly am I lying?

The quotes speak for themselves, Lotion. I don't need to do anything more than provide them to disprove your claim.

The only think you do with providing those quotes is harming yourself:D

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 11 février 2011 - 05:15 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Knight-Commander Greagoir prevented any further mages from participating in Ostagar, only allowing seven mages to stop the darkspawn in spite of the King's request for more mages, and this very issue can be brought up by a Warden from the Circle of Magi who says that the Circle will do what the Chantry tells it to do - to which Alistair replies that "technically" the Circle is independent (which he clearly knows is b.s., further proved by the existance of the Magi boon that asks for the Circle to be given independence) and that they don't know the Chantry won't agree to help them.

The Knight-Commander can approve requests to go outside of the Circle, but he cannot order mages to war.

[earl of the north]

The whole D'sims thing sparked my interest since I couldn't recall ever seeing it in any codex......anyway chased it down.

The Magnificent D'Sims was an elven "healer" who "cured" hayseeds of nonexistent ailments. Even though it was all a scam, the templars declared him apostate and took off his head. Oddly, his staff turned out to be genuinely enchanted.

So the only facts seem to be.....D'Sims was a elf conning the poorest in society (probably Fereldan but not stated) out of what little they had....how he conned them is unclear, smooth talking, poisoning them with herbs, drugging the water supply, selling a cure all tonic?

Also no date or locations mentioned so he could have been killed in any Andrastrian nation at any point in their history.

So these Templars have an elf claiming to cure the sick, in possession of magic staff and either a mob of angry peasants or peasants telling them how this magnificent elf performed miracles and cured them......probably leading to a unsurprising result.

Not really a damning example of the evils of the Templars/Chantry really is it...........a criminal lowlife preying on the weekest of Andrastian society, conning himself to his own death.

Modifié par earl of the north, 11 février 2011 - 05:50 .