1019 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion,

Morrigan doesn't call the Bloodritual "bloodmagic". She is deliberately coy about it. She says, "Some might call it bloodmagic, but that shouldn't bother the likes of you." Since my character at the time was an uber-powerful Arcane Bloodwarrior, I took the point with some amusement.

-Polaris

She's always coy about things..so what?

Again, you cannot say it's NOT blood magic and she confirmes some (Chantry) would see it as such.
So what exactly is the problem here?

Morrigna may think draining slaves of hteir life is a good thing, but that doesn't make it so. What Morrigan thinks or sez, and what the chantry think and sez and what hte pople of Thedas think and say - they are different things.

Several things are wrong with your statement.

1.  There are only three people alive that know about the Dark Ritual tops (and that's if you have Alister do it).  If you don't, then not even Alister necessarily knows.  That would be you, Morrigan, and possibly Alister and none of you are going to talk about it to anyone let alone the Chanty.  Morrigan certainly won't, and you won't, and Alistair (if he knows) makes it plain that he isn't talking either (going so far as to say that acting dumb is an art).

That means that the Chanty can't possibly have information of the Dark Ritual and thus the Dark Ritual can not be used as proof that Morrigan is a bloodmage.

2.  At what other point (unless you deliberately make her one) does Morrigan ever display any talent for blood magic?  None.  She obviously doesn't fear them (but does respect them) and obviously has no reservations about bloodmagic but that doesn't mean she is one.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

SpeakingInSilence wrote...

Good point, you also have to add in he had an enchanted staff! He might've not known how to use it, but that would be like your analogy of someone pretending to be a gunmen with a gun!

The point would make more sense if we all forgot that templars have the power to disable magical ability, too...

Only some do. And it's not even always effective.

Again...a police officer seeing a criminal pulling a gun, he will shoot. And not in the knees, as he would be taking risks. He will shoot to kill. And if it turns out that that wasn't a real gun....tragic, but you can't really blame the police officer for wanting to save his life.

You cannot really tell me that that is not what happened with D'Sims.
I don't know. Nether do you.

Um Lotion, you should use a better example.  In most places in the US (and I'd be shocked if the regs in European societies weren't even stricter), the moment a cop pulls his weapon, he's virtually assured himself of at least 6 additional hours of paperwork and that's if the weapon isn't actually fired.  If it is and especially if the suspect is shot, that cop can count on being administratively suspended at least for a few days while IA investigages even if it is clearly a "clean shoot' .  The point being is that modern police will do everything in their power (sometimes putting their own lives at risk) to avoid using deadly force unless it's absolutely necessary...and that means if there is a means to restrain a suspect without the use of deadly force, the police will.

The difference is obvious.  Modern police (at least in western societies) have very firm oversight when it comes to deadly force even in the field.  The Templars clearly do not.

-Polaris

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Inserting speculation as proof again, Lotion? We already know there are two versions of what happened: the Orlesian version, and the Dalish version. Don't put forth your speculation on lore as proof yet again.[/quote]

I used the word "apparently". Just one of the little neuances you are constantly missing. [/quote]

I didn't miss that you made it seem like the Dales brought it on themselves when we don't know what actually happened.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But again - all mage led empires wee either horriblem, or are backwater and pitifull or were destroyed. Not a good track record. [/quote]

You mean the one empire - the Tevinter Imperium - coupled with the very different Arlathan, which had Eluvians that even the Tevinter Magisters could never figure out, and the Dales, which wiped the floor with Orlais until they had the help of every other Andrastian nation?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Coming from the person who doesn't want to acknowledge that the Chantry had to abide by the Right of Conscription when Alistair was recruited by Duncan, I don't think you care about the substance of arguments as much as you want people to agree with you.[/quote]

As I said..stop putting words in my mouth. Learn to read and think a bit before making claims about what other people said that are totally wrong.
You consistnetly miss the point of posts other people make. [/quote]

I haven't misrepresented what you or Emperor said. I backed up my statements with quotes.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, a summary of things you claimed aren't mentioned anywhere at all.
Like chantry peace offer. Orlais (not Chantry) destroying the Dales and abolishing their religion.
And more.. All things clearly mentioned.
So they AREN'T things I picked out of thin air. [/quote]

Revisionist history on your part, because the "truce" was forcing elves to worship the Maker, accept that their religion was now illegal, and tossing them into slums. You also left out how the Dalish accused the Chantry of sending in templars to the Dales after they kicked out their missionaries, so according to the Dalish they did start the war. You basically ignored how the Dalish Warden Origin and the Dalish clan stories both reference their refusal to submit to their religion as one of the key reasons that the war happened and why the human nations grew cold against them.[/quote]

What revisionist history?
You claimed there was not even a MENTION of such things anywhere. And as the DA2 wiki just proved, there ARE mentions. Meaning you are full of BS (as always).

That's no revisionist history, that's just pointing out your continuos faliures.
And while it's completley futile to argue with you, given that you hear what you want ot hear insted of what is said, I will still try.
I never ignored the Dalish codex or POV. But since you're always bringing them up as some sort of holy bible, I brought out different POV's and codex entries that give different explanations of events. [/quote]

You claimed Orlais asked for help during the Second Blight, and there's absolutely no proof to support this. You mentioned in the quote above that the Chantry made a "peace offer" to the Dales, but neglected to mention it had to do with tossing them into ghettos, making their religion illegal, and forcing them to worship their religion. Your leaving out details to support your argument - that's my problem.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Chantry is not in charge in any military or government sense.
The Divine hardly rides ar the front lines and commands the armies. Armies are lead by their kings and nobles. People with their own agendas and ideas.

And when talking about historical precedent, I'm talking RL history.
And agian, taking a single line of text and arguing semantics is pointless.
"The Chantry responded" can be interpreted in several ways. [/quote]

I notice how you ignore the codex entries when it doesn't suit your view on how things should be, just like you ignore the History of the Circle and the History of the Chantry Part Four codex entries. Clearly, Chantry scholars viewed the Chantry leading the charge against the Qunari with their mages in their Exalted March. Evidently, they are in charge of their holy wars. If you have anything to refute this, feel free to provide it.[/quote]

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm pointing out that your fanatical interpretations of every line of the menation Codexes is NOT the only plausible interpretation and hence cannot be used as hard proof. Something you again, and again and again keep ignoring.

You always argue semantics, fully well knowing that you have no definite proof...And yet tend to ignore such semantics wherewer they do not suit you.

to sum it up:
Codex Entry: "Templar came into forest and chopped a tree."
You: "It proves he hates trees and the enviroment."
Me: "Or he could just be cold."
You: "That's not what it sez in the codex. HERESY!!!" [/quote]

That reads to me like another example of you ignoring the codex to suit how you want things to be. If the codex entries reference the Chantry leading the armies during the Exalted Marches, why should we ignore it because you want it otherwise?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I'm asking you what we KNOW, not what you THINK.
You're simply not using your brain enough on this one. WHY was D'Sims killed? Because the templars thought he was a mage? Probably, that is why they confronted him after all. But is that ALL that is too it? Again, dig deeper. Ask more questions.

I've given you several examples of what might have led to D'sims death, nothing which conflicts anything in any codex or game lore.
Can you prove, beyond hte shadow of doubt, your claims? no, you cannot. So quit repeating them like broken records. [/quote]

You fanwank how armored templars who can disable magic might have been concerned about an elven fraud who had no magical powers and pretended to heal people to the point that they cut off his head. Your theory that D'Sims had a small knife that would have frightened him seems absurd to me.[/quote]

Not necessarily a knife. But why wouldn't a knife be enough to make a man jumpy. Again, the threat doesn't have to be real. It has to be PERCIEVED and it has to be sudden enough that the response to it is almsot reflexive in nature. [/quote]

They can disable magic - I don't see what's so hard to understand about how troubling it is that they killed someone they thought was a mage when they have the power to disable his ability to harm them if he actually was one.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Suddenly the templars no longer have the ability to disable magic? Isn't that the reason why they're placed in charge over mages by the Chantry?[/quote]

Again, that's a higher levle templar ability. And in-game it may not be simple to use, or fast.. Swining a sword at someone who's standing right next ot you when jumped seems a far more normal resposne thant concetrating to unleash a attack that might not even work..or you might not have mastered yet. [/quote]

An ability that Alistair possesses, and he never even took his vows.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What are you? Deaf? Blind? ignorant? All 3?

She HERSELF mentions that the Dark Ritual is what some (Chantry) would call Blood Magic. This is her line from the game. It is undesputable proof.
And if she can do the DR, then we know she has knowledge of such magics. [/quote]

More speculation put forth as fact. Again, a ritual of carnal contact doesn't make her a blood mage. There's no reason why the templars would have any reason to think she has blood magic capability, and you've failed to provide a reason why they would assume so.[/quote]


You truely are hopeless.
What YOU think is irrelevant. What the CHANTRY thinks is relevant. The question isn't (and never was) what you think of that as blood magic. What other people in Thedas think is the issue.
She said some would label it as Blood Magic. Who did she mean by "some"? Take a guess. The regualr people of thedas? Chantry?
Either way, it is clear that she can perform magic that can be seen and interpreted as (or really is) Blood magic. This is NOT disputable. It is a fact. [/quote]


And how would they learn about the Dark Ritual when neither Alistair nor Loghain have any intention of telling them about it? And that's even assuming it happened with the Orlesian Warden timeline, where it may not have happened, and therefore Morrigan did not commit an act of carnal contact that could be constituted as blood magic.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

When you ignore actual canon and come up with alternate explanations for why Alistair was recruited or put abominations into the Mages Collective handing out quests to the Warden, you are fanwanking.[/quote]

And you are lying and trolling.
You always keep brining up again and again, things that have been debunked and countered.
That's not smart debating. That's not thing but sheer spammage and trolling in it's purest form.
[/quote]

I provided quotes to back up my statements, Lotion. All anyone has to do is go back a page to see them. I haven't lied - the only person who makes accusations that can't be supported is you.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

How is providing the actual quotes of what you and Emperor said make me delusional? He's saying mages are property of the Chantry, and you're supporting this view in a response tool_bot makes to Emperor debating this assertion.

Because you're misreading/misinterpreting them. So no, that's NOT what we said. That what YOU think we said. You are pretty much the only one claiming that and dozens of people read our posts.
So what...are other people stupid for not interpreting our posts the same way? Or is it you who read into them somethnig thet really wasn't there?

Take a guess......

I'm not misrepresenting anything. Emperor said that freeing the mages would be theft of Chantry property, and you supported it to tool_bot when he clearly addressed the issue that mages weren't property of the Chantry.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Also, the Chantry owns all the Circles. If Ferelden were to expel the Templars and "free" the mages. It would basically be theft of Chantry "property", and borderline heretical. So of course that would result in an Exalted March against Ferelden.

He says "freeing the mages = theft of Chantry property." How can this be interpreted another way?

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...
..and frankly you are IMO going over the line here. Keep it topic topical or let's drop it at least on this forum.
-Polaris

Lol Ian, your the one who brought it up. What 'you talkin' bout'?

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  There are only three people alive that know about the Dark Ritual

Remember Godwin? The guy from the mage tower??

He was actually in the closet in the same room..Watching...Your....Every.....Move

He says "freeing the mages = theft of Chantry property." How can this be interpreted another way?

Well... he said freeing the Circles would be theft of Chantry property but by extension they could mean the same thing
But didn't he mean the funding the organisation of The Circle brings forth for The Chantry - But since the Circles are self funded it doesn't.. at least to my knowledge.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 12 février 2011 - 04:56 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
..and frankly you are IMO going over the line here. Keep it topic topical or let's drop it at least on this forum.
-Polaris

Lol Ian, your the one who brought it up. What 'you talkin' bout'?

Not really.  I said that the Chantry had a very close correlation to the midaeval Roman Catholic Church and posited that we were meant to make that connection and explained why.  That was ALL.  It was the other guy that decided to get his panties in a twist and just talk about RL religion without relating it to the game.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
1.  There are only three people alive that know about the Dark Ritual

Remember Godwin? The guy from the mage tower??

He was actually in the closet in the same room..Watching...Your....Every.....Move

Is this supposed to be a joke?  Godwin is nowhere near the Arl's Estate when the Dark Ritual takes place.  There is no way he could know, and that's assuming he's still alive (and there is a good chance he is not...either from annulment or from Gregoire finding out about his extracurricular activities).

He says "freeing the mages = theft of Chantry property." How can this be interpreted another way?

Well... he said freeing the Circles would be theft of Chantry property but by extension they could mean the same thing
But didn't he mean the funding the organisation of The Circle brings forth for The Chantry - But since the Circles are self funded it doesn't.. at least to my knowledge.

They are self-funded on the back of slave labor (the Tranquil), and the Chantry certainly does seem to treat the circles as Chantry property.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[double-post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 février 2011 - 12:32 .

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...
Is this supposed to be a joke?  Godwin is nowhere near the Arl's Estate when the Dark Ritual takes place.  There is no way he could know, and that's assuming he's still alive (and there is a good chance he is not...either from annulment or from Gregoire finding out about his extracurricular activities).

.....Really dude??


Of course it was a joke why the hell would you think I was serious?

also you double posted

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 12 février 2011 - 06:59 .

[Zkyire]

Aside from their mage-hating ways, the Chantry give charitable aid to those in need.

And we've seen what Blood Mages can do if not brought down.

I support the Chantry and the Templars, only to a degree though.

[Augustei]

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Aside from their mage-hating ways, the Chantry give charitable aid to those in need.

And we've seen what Blood Mages can do if not brought down.

I support the Chantry and the Templars, only to a degree though.

I see... and do you really eat what you poo?

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Of course it was a joke why the hell would you think I was serious?

In all fairness, it does seem to be the attitude some here are taking to explain why there's a bounty on Morrigan for being a blood mage.

[Corrupted Robots]

leliana sure liked the chantry.

[IanPolaris]

Corrupted Robots wrote...

leliana sure liked the chantry.

Not especially.  Lelianna liked life in the Chantry but Lelianna was an open heretic and was openly called a Heretic by the SIsters of the Chantry.  However, since she was only a lay-sister and not a priestess, there didn't seem to be much in the way of punishment...merely repeated correction and negative peer presure against her 'heresy'.  In this the Chantry does seem to take a much milder line towards theological heresy than RL religions.

-Polaris

Edit:  She was rather unfond of many aspects of the Chantry politically and thelogically actually....

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 février 2011 - 01:27 .

[Last Vizard]

Ziggeh wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

Yes that is true, but when you factor in one oraganism being able to shoot lightening from his finger tips straight into the face of the other organism and perhaps at the crutch instead then what you end up with is one god like organism who can still reproduce.......

And you think social creatures follow the same evolutionary patterns as simple organisms? Human sexual relationships haven't revolved around destructive capacity since we were hunter gatherers.

Would you reproduce with someone who had recessive genetic disorders knowing that they skip a generation so your offspring will most likely have some dissabilities?
on the other hand, if you had to choose between two equal women however one was a mage which means your offspring will at the very least be better than a normal child, which would you pick?

The Genetic behaviour of Females is to respond emotionally to certain stimuli, there is truth to the saying "treat em mean, keep em keen" (i hate that this is true), If the Male can talk the talk he is in, completely reguardless of what they look like because females don't rate males in those ways (its all about who their emotions tell them is best suited to protect, provide and treat them well..... (takes a while for the initial lust to wear off and then they see the guy for what they really are)........ i wonder why devorce rates are so high?

could say plenty more but i think this'll get my point across.  imagine a kingdom that has systems in place to ensure there are more benifits to having mage children and now imagine a Kingdom that kills their mages or has created an atmosphere of hate towards their own mages.... the two kingdoms share a river border.... Who do you think would win?

In Warhammer 40k there are rare people that are called Nulls (i think thats their name) they project fields that cancel psykers abilities.... psykers kill them by throwing cars at them or droping a building on them (Null field doesn't counter kinetic momentum of the objects) so i think mages can counter Templars in battle the same way.

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

Corrupted Robots wrote...

leliana sure liked the chantry.

Not especially.  Lelianna liked life in the Chantry but Lelianna was an open heretic and was openly called a Heretic by the SIsters of the Chantry.  However, since she was only a lay-sister and not a priestess, there didn't seem to be much in the way of punishment...merely repeated correction and negative peer presure against her 'heresy'.  In this the Chantry does seem to take a much milder line towards theological heresy than RL religions.

-Polaris

Edit:  She was rather unfond of many aspects of the Chantry politically and thelogically actually....

They did no such thing.. Leliana was not called anything like a heretic and she never says she was.. She says they had a condesending attitude. Which is completely different to calling someone a heretic

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 13 février 2011 - 03:08 .

[IanPolaris]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Corrupted Robots wrote...

leliana sure liked the chantry.

Not especially.  Lelianna liked life in the Chantry but Lelianna was an open heretic and was openly called a Heretic by the SIsters of the Chantry.  However, since she was only a lay-sister and not a priestess, there didn't seem to be much in the way of punishment...merely repeated correction and negative peer presure against her 'heresy'.  In this the Chantry does seem to take a much milder line towards theological heresy than RL religions.

-Polaris

Edit:  She was rather unfond of many aspects of the Chantry politically and thelogically actually....

They did no such thing.. Leliana was not called anything like a heretic and she never says she was.. She says they had a condesending attitude. Which is completely different to calling someone a heretic

She says they isolated her and condscended to her because of her beliefs.  She was also told the Chantry line, and yes, she WAS called a heretic.  That particular word wasn't used, but she was called one.  For your information, a heretic is one that claims to believe in a certain religion but holds points of view that are fundamentally inconsistant or in error with the dogma of that religion.  Lelianna was and is most certainly a heretic.

-Polaris

[Augoeides]

XxDeonxX wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Corrupted Robots wrote...

leliana sure liked the chantry.

Not especially.  Lelianna liked life in the Chantry but Lelianna was an open heretic and was openly called a Heretic by the SIsters of the Chantry.  However, since she was only a lay-sister and not a priestess, there didn't seem to be much in the way of punishment...merely repeated correction and negative peer presure against her 'heresy'.  In this the Chantry does seem to take a much milder line towards theological heresy than RL religions.

-Polaris

Edit:  She was rather unfond of many aspects of the Chantry politically and thelogically actually....

They did no such thing.. Leliana was not called anything like a heretic and she never says she was.. She says they had a condesending attitude. Which is completely different to calling someone a heretic

If I remember my Church History classes correctly then Heresy was simply the label slapped onto any debate or belief that at the time seemed and was deemed contrary to the 'stance' taken by the Church. By those standards when the other Chantry folk would implie her beliefs were wrong (and they did seem to run against the beliefs held by the majority of the Chantry) they also implied that she was a Heretic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
She's always coy about things..so what?

Again, you cannot say it's NOT blood magic and she confirmes some (Chantry) would see it as such.
So what exactly is the problem here?

Morrigna may think draining slaves of hteir life is a good thing, but that doesn't make it so. What Morrigan thinks or sez, and what the chantry think and sez and what hte pople of Thedas think and say - they are different things.

Several things are wrong with your statement.

1.  There are only three people alive that know about the Dark Ritual tops (and that's if you have Alister do it).  If you don't, then not even Alister necessarily knows.  That would be you, Morrigan, and possibly Alister and none of you are going to talk about it to anyone let alone the Chanty.  Morrigan certainly won't, and you won't, and Alistair (if he knows) makes it plain that he isn't talking either (going so far as to say that acting dumb is an art).

That means that the Chanty can't possibly have information of the Dark Ritual and thus the Dark Ritual can not be used as proof that Morrigan is a bloodmage.

2.  At what other point (unless you deliberately make her one) does Morrigan ever display any talent for blood magic?  None.  She obviously doesn't fear them (but does respect them) and obviously has no reservations about bloodmagic but that doesn't mean she is one.

-Polaris

You argue a pint I am not making... Let me clarify it:

I'm not saying the Dark Ritual is the proof the Chantry has.

I'm saying that the Dark Ritual (and the Aliange) prove to US, the players, that Morrigan is both capablwe of using magics the Chantry would label as blood magic, and willing to use them.

Given that Morrigan likes secrets, and goes away after the Archdemon is killed (apparently to Orlais), is it that strange to think she did some forbidden magics and was caught in the act?

When calling Morrigan a blood mage and maleficar, the Chantry is definately right. Because she is both by the Chantry definition.

[Lotion Soronarr]

IanPolaris wrote...
Um Lotion, you should use a better example.  In most places in the US (and I'd be shocked if the regs in European societies weren't even stricter), the moment a cop pulls his weapon, he's virtually assured himself of at least 6 additional hours of paperwork and that's if the weapon isn't actually fired.  If it is and especially if the suspect is shot, that cop can count on being administratively suspended at least for a few days while IA investigages even if it is clearly a "clean shoot' .  The point being is that modern police will do everything in their power (sometimes putting their own lives at risk) to avoid using deadly force unless it's absolutely necessary...and that means if there is a means to restrain a suspect without the use of deadly force, the police will.

The difference is obvious.  Modern police (at least in western societies) have very firm oversight when it comes to deadly force even in the field.  The Templars clearly do not.

That's where you are wrong. Oversight in the field is always, and always has been, rahter weak..by the very nature of being in the field.

Just google police/soldier brutality or kills oin you tube, and you can find thousands of videos recording it. And that's those
that are caught!
There are probably many cases where nothing ever gets reported, no paperwork ever done. And that's simply how it is.

You say templars have no oversight, but that is clearly not true.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

That's where you are wrong. Oversight in the field is always, and always has been, rahter weak..by the very nature of being in the field.

Just google police/soldier brutality or kills oin you tube, and you can find thousands of videos recording it. And that's those
that are caught!
There are probably many cases where nothing ever gets reported, no paperwork ever done. And that's simply how it is.

You are wrong about this Lotion.  I happen to be a veteran and I know wherefore I speak.  Oversight is never perfect in the field, true, but it's definately there, and I was talking about POLICE procedures as you were.  If you are talking about a war zone, then yes, oversight becomes more difficult, but it's definately there.  Don't trust the stuff from Wikialeaks, etc.  It's easy to hype and accentuate the cases where oversight fails.

You say templars have no oversight, but that is clearly not true.

Really?  The only evidence we see that Templars get disciplined is when one chases too much tail!  We see no evidence either in the game or game-lore that Templars are accountable in the field whatsoever!

-Polaris

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
I used the word "apparently". Just one of the little neuances you are constantly missing. [/quote]

I didn't miss that you made it seem like the Dales brought it on themselves when we don't know what actually happened.[/quote]

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later. I blame your influence. You are the one who always writes everything that way.




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
As I said..stop putting words in my mouth. Learn to read and think a bit before making claims about what other people said that are totally wrong.
You consistnetly miss the point of posts other people make. [/quote]

I haven't misrepresented what you or Emperor said. I backed up my statements with quotes.[/quote]

Quotes that dont' say what you think they say. I know better than you what I mean and write.
Again - READING INTO THINGS. Stop it. It's not funny.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What revisionist history?
You claimed there was not even a MENTION of such things anywhere. And as the DA2 wiki just proved, there ARE mentions. Meaning you are full of BS (as always).

That's no revisionist history, that's just pointing out your continuos faliures.
And while it's completley futile to argue with you, given that you hear what you want ot hear insted of what is said, I will still try.
I never ignored the Dalish codex or POV. But since you're always bringing them up as some sort of holy bible, I brought out different POV's and codex entries that give different explanations of events. [/quote]

You claimed Orlais asked for help during the Second Blight, and there's absolutely no proof to support this. You mentioned in the quote above that the Chantry made a "peace offer" to the Dales, but neglected to mention it had to do with tossing them into ghettos, making their religion illegal, and forcing them to worship their religion. Your leaving out details to support your argument - that's my problem.[/quote]

WRONG.
Agian, your extremism shines trough like a searhc light.

I never CLAIMED Orlais asked for help. I presented it as a possible, and reasonable, scenario.
And it was you who claimed no peace offer was EVER made. I just proved you wrong (for the n'th time). The conditions of hte offer are irrelveant...especially given that unconditional surrender was a common thing.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
to sum it up:
Codex Entry: "Templar came into forest and chopped a tree."
You: "It proves he hates trees and the enviroment."
Me: "Or he could just be cold."
You: "That's not what it sez in the codex. HERESY!!!" [/quote]

That reads to me like another example of you ignoring the codex to suit how you want things to be. If the codex entries reference the Chantry leading the armies during the Exalted Marches, why should we ignore it because you want it otherwise?[/quote]

The only ignorant one here is you.
Learn to differentiate between FACT and interpretation. Learn the difference between being LITERAL and thinking a bit about what is written.
The subtelties of a written (and spoken) language elude you, with it's maryad of phrases and meanings.

The phrase "lead by" itself can mean a lot of things. Quitea few historical writers alos used the same phrase when talking about the Crusades. And the Church didn't relaly lead them in that sense of the word...
A paralel that given the socio-political situation in Thedas, seems to fit like a glove.





[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again, that's a higher levle templar ability. And in-game it may not be simple to use, or fast.. Swining a sword at someone who's standing right next ot you when jumped seems a far more normal resposne thant concetrating to unleash a attack that might not even work..or you might not have mastered yet. [/quote]

An ability that Alistair possesses, and he never even took his vows.[/quote]

Only at higher levels.




[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And you are lying and trolling.
You always keep brining up again and again, things that have been debunked and countered.
That's not smart debating. That's not thing but sheer spammage and trolling in it's purest form.
[/quote]

I provided quotes to back up my statements, Lotion. All anyone has to do is go back a page to see them. I haven't lied - the only person who makes accusations that can't be supported is you.[/quote]

You live in your own little word.
Oh, I don't think you're lying on purpose. You're so utterly convinced of your wrong interpretation that you're incabable of even asking yourself "is hat the only way I cna understand that sentance?"

The quotes your provided do not back you up Lob.
You are quite simply wrong.

[IanPolaris]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
She's always coy about things..so what?

Again, you cannot say it's NOT blood magic and she confirmes some (Chantry) would see it as such.
So what exactly is the problem here?

Morrigna may think draining slaves of hteir life is a good thing, but that doesn't make it so. What Morrigan thinks or sez, and what the chantry think and sez and what hte pople of Thedas think and say - they are different things.

Several things are wrong with your statement.

1.  There are only three people alive that know about the Dark Ritual tops (and that's if you have Alister do it).  If you don't, then not even Alister necessarily knows.  That would be you, Morrigan, and possibly Alister and none of you are going to talk about it to anyone let alone the Chanty.  Morrigan certainly won't, and you won't, and Alistair (if he knows) makes it plain that he isn't talking either (going so far as to say that acting dumb is an art).

That means that the Chanty can't possibly have information of the Dark Ritual and thus the Dark Ritual can not be used as proof that Morrigan is a bloodmage.

2.  At what other point (unless you deliberately make her one) does Morrigan ever display any talent for blood magic?  None.  She obviously doesn't fear them (but does respect them) and obviously has no reservations about bloodmagic but that doesn't mean she is one.

-Polaris

You argue a pint I am not making... Let me clarify it:

I'm not saying the Dark Ritual is the proof the Chantry has.

I'm saying that the Dark Ritual (and the Aliange) prove to US, the players, that Morrigan is both capablwe of using magics the Chantry would label as blood magic, and willing to use them.

My point is that even if this were true, the Chantry HAS NO EVIDENCE to back this up.  It doesn't matter what we know on a metalevel whatsoever.  People are innocent until proven guilty.

Given that Morrigan likes secrets, and goes away after the Archdemon is killed (apparently to Orlais), is it that strange to think she did some forbidden magics and was caught in the act?

When calling Morrigan a blood mage and maleficar, the Chantry is definately right. Because she is both by the Chantry definition.

Again evidence would be nice.  I don't know about you, but if I am going to sentence someone to death, I'd like to go by Innocent until Proven Guilty, but I guess that's too generous for you.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
She's always coy about things..so what?

Again, you cannot say it's NOT blood magic and she confirmes some (Chantry) would see it as such.
So what exactly is the problem here?

Morrigna may think draining slaves of hteir life is a good thing, but that doesn't make it so. What Morrigan thinks or sez, and what the chantry think and sez and what hte pople of Thedas think and say - they are different things.

Several things are wrong with your statement.

1.  There are only three people alive that know about the Dark Ritual tops (and that's if you have Alister do it).  If you don't, then not even Alister necessarily knows.  That would be you, Morrigan, and possibly Alister and none of you are going to talk about it to anyone let alone the Chanty.  Morrigan certainly won't, and you won't, and Alistair (if he knows) makes it plain that he isn't talking either (going so far as to say that acting dumb is an art).

That means that the Chanty can't possibly have information of the Dark Ritual and thus the Dark Ritual can not be used as proof that Morrigan is a bloodmage.

2.  At what other point (unless you deliberately make her one) does Morrigan ever display any talent for blood magic?  None.  She obviously doesn't fear them (but does respect them) and obviously has no reservations about bloodmagic but that doesn't mean she is one.

-Polaris

You argue a pint I am not making... Let me clarify it:

I'm not saying the Dark Ritual is the proof the Chantry has.

I'm saying that the Dark Ritual (and the Aliange) prove to US, the players, that Morrigan is both capablwe of using magics the Chantry would label as blood magic, and willing to use them.

My point is that even if this were true, the Chantry HAS NO EVIDENCE to back this up.  It doesn't matter what we know on a metalevel whatsoever.  People are innocent until proven guilty.

Given that Morrigan likes secrets, and goes away after the Archdemon is killed (apparently to Orlais), is it that strange to think she did some forbidden magics and was caught in the act?

When calling Morrigan a blood mage and maleficar, the Chantry is definately right. Because she is both by the Chantry definition.

Again evidence would be nice.  I don't know about you, but if I am going to sentence someone to death, I'd like to go by Innocent until Proven Guilty, but I guess that's too generous for you.

-Polaris

How do you know the Chantry has no proof? How do you know what happened in he two years in Orlais? None of us are saying that they do have proof. We are saying that they might have proof. Since they suspect her of being a Blood Mage, they must have some form of evidence, otherwise they would just label her Apostate (and still hunt her anyway).