1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Lynata]

There is no "the" Chantry priests, they are individuals like everyone else, and if you did not notice that many of them have different opinions (especially when comparing Ferelden to Kirkwall) then you were just not paying attention.

Also ... "evil deity", did I miss something? As far as I know the Maker isn't even real.

[esper]

Lynata wrote...

There is no "the" Chantry priests, they are individuals like everyone else, and if you did not notice that many of them have different opinions (especially when comparing Ferelden to Kirkwall) then you were just not paying attention.

Also ... "evil deity", did I miss something? As far as I know the Maker isn't even real.

The chantry priest as a group have a pretty unified way of understanding the chant of light, that is understandable, the cristian church have the catolic and the protestant which have the same basic material, but their understanding is pretty different. So even if they are indivual they have been taught that this is how we should understand the chant and this is how they willl understand and preach the chant.

Now we have a Leliana who is pretty influencial who have a different understanding, but she is a minority which is ridiculed. She said so herself. Granted she may have influence with the Divine who seems open to new ideas, so we might be facing a split in the chantry religion soon wiht one part of the chantry going in one direction and the other in the direction it is on now, but as it is in the Thedas 'today', the chantry priest have a terrible understanding of the chant of light.

As for the Maker. I assume he isn't real, even in Thedas, but as the Chantry describes him he is evil, and since their version is the Maker they are trying to get back...

[VampOrchid]

Irkalla wrote...

<br />
i hate all organized religion, I don't need any other reason to hate it.

This.

I hits home base with me. It's so close to real life, that it's easy to get aggrivated with the Chantry

[Zzulu2]

I don't hate organized religions. I am not a believer myself but I understand why others can find comfort in such things

[Lynata]

esper wrote...
Granted she may have influence with the Divine who seems open to new ideas, so we might be facing a split in the chantry religion soon wiht one part of the chantry going in one direction and the other in the direction it is on now

Why do you think so? From all I've read these tendencies have always existed in the Chantry, and apart from the White Divine / Black Divine split between Orlais and Tevinter I do not see a shism at all. The Divine's opinion isn't that "new" or "revolutionary"; the fact she was able to rise to this position itself is pretty exemplary of this and the Chantry has had similar developments in the past. Yes, the Circles once were even more oppressive.

Any larger organization has "sub-factions" with different tendencies. This goes for religion as much as it goes for governments. This is part of how a religion or a government or a company evolves over time - when said tendencies manage to gain more influence than the conservative parties. In rare cases where there is a disconnect between entire divisions (regional or departmential), this may lead to a split, but more often than not it is merely an act of adaptation for individuals scattered throughout the entire organization (who are thus unable to form any larger resistance against the new developments), and Divine Justinia has the Chant of Light to back her up.

The only problem are the templars and the seekers who seem to split off from the Chantry now, as they were a separate department and not - like the clerics - scattered. Though I do have to wonder whether or not there won't be templar garrisons who would prefer sticking with the Chantry (regional disconnect overriding the departmential), hence I'm eager to see how this will develop further.

esper wrote...
As for the Maker. I assume he isn't real, even in Thedas, but as the Chantry describes him he is evil, and since their version is the Maker they are trying to get back...

Um? Where does the Chantry describe him as "evil"? Are you sure you're not letting your real life opinion about religion cloud your judgment?

From what I've seen, the Maker is credited with creating Thedas and mankind. He helped the people to free themselves from Tevinter (in the form of his prophetess Andraste). He gifted mankind with magic. He teaches that compassion is good and that unjust violence, theft or lies are bad. And finally, he sheperds the souls of the deceased so that they may find peace in eternity.

Doesn't sound evil to me at all, sorry.

[LinksOcarina]

Like real religious groups, there is beauty in it if you can find it. Leliana and Sebastian showcase the goodness of that as characters, for example.

But then you have those like Petrice, who showcase the bad. But like everything, it can be corruptible, and it would be naive to think otherwise.

So I don't hate the chantry, but I hate those who may be a part of it that abuse the power given to them.

[berelinde]

I'm ambivalent on the "real life/fantasy" debate.

I like believalbe characters who interact with the world and each other in a way I understand. I like it when they have comprehensible motivations and recognizable personality traits. In other words, I prefer the characters to fall on the "real life" side of the balance.

When it comes to setting, the "game world," I like that to be familiar. I want people to greet each other with handshakes and say "Bless you" after a sneeze. I appreciate game-world cultures that have real-world analogues because it helps me understand the people and social customs of those who live there. For example, Orlais has a strong baroque French feel to it, so birds in the hair, fascination with fashion, and the practice of concealing intrigue behind an intricate facade of ettiquette all made perfect sense to me. It made the world more believable and alive.

Despite that, I have to draw the line at real-world historical events. I don't want them in my fantasy game. Everybody knows what I'm talking about, so that's enough about that.

When it comes to social institutions like the Chantry/Catholic Church and Templars/Templars, it becomes especially convoluted. I loved Ser Otto in the Denerim Alienage in DA:O. His sacrifice, devotion and general heroism endeared him to me tremendously. But we didn't meet any templars like Ser Otto in DA2. We had evil, corrupt, and powerful ones like Ser Karras and Meredith and we had basically good-hearted but totally ineffectual ones like Ser Thrask and Emeric. Cullen was neither evil nor useless, but it was pretty clear that his faith was wavering pretty heavily, especially toward the end. In DA:O, we have kindly, decent Chantry sisters like Mother Malol. In DA2, we have wicked, corrupt sisters like Petrice who use religion to advance their own agendas and tired, apathetic Elthina. At the end of the day, I consider game religions that closely resemble real world institutions unnecessarily polarizing. It's a video game. Fans should be talking about character conflicts and ways to beat the game, not about player conflicts and how wrong this group of players is. It is divisive and not entertaining.

Also, and this is a purely personal thing, I'm not even remotely religious and I don't want to be forced to play a religious character. Yes, some of the characters I have created (and even written about) have been deeply religious, but I'm not and I don't want anybody telling me that I should be. Voiced lines about the Maker and paraphrases that lead to the protagonist saying something with religious overtones? Bad, bad move.

[LinksOcarina]

Fantasy by definition is supposed to be quasi-analogous to the real world. Sad but true, any fantasty novel or game or book has elements of that in it,

Good fantastic worlds show that though in various ways. Bad ones revel in the excesses and the style over substance. Even if it's not 100% spelled out for you, you see real world analogies between religious fanaticisms, kindness, persecution, and devotion in the Chantry and in the Qun.

And it is done rather tastefully too. Considering we have both sides, the good and the bad, as berelinde pointed out above. But it is not about polarizing the views so much as showing the good and bad of points of view. The first game had a flawed Chantry, and the second game shows what happens when it goes out of control. The first game had a fish out of water tale with Sten, but then showed the true might and insight of the Qun with the Arishok, and the devotion to the Qun with Tallis. It is complex if you look at the Chantry fully on their merits and pitfalls, because a real-life institution would have the same problems.

So yeah, it's impossible to remove real life analogies to it either, but to be honest, it wouldn't be fantastical if it didn't have that hook.

[Cultist]

In all DA games I always act against the Chantry. With one exception - when it is against the Quanari. I don't like Chantry, BUT I would like to see Chantry as a strong enemy, not beating-boys or clone waves. It is not interesting to defeat or put to misery weak enemy.

[brushyourteeth]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Like real religious groups, there is beauty in it if you can find it. Leliana and Sebastian showcase the goodness of that as characters, for example.

But then you have those like Petrice, who showcase the bad. But like everything, it can be corruptible, and it would be naive to think otherwise.

So I don't hate the chantry, but I hate those who may be a part of it that abuse the power given to them.

THIS. Couldn't have said it better, and from interviews I've seen with Mr. Gaider I gather this is one of his favorite reasons for featuring the Chantry. It's just a forum, or a conduit, for the best and worst of what humanity (/elfmanity?/dwarfmanity?) has to offer. Excellent and terrible things are both done in the Maker's name.

So... don't hate the game, hate the players!

[berelinde]

@LinksOcarina: By "tastefully," do you mean "Beaten over the head with the obvious stick"? I like a little more subtlety. And I'm not really seeing the "good and bad," I'm seeing the "bad and worse". I was tolerant of the parallels between the real life church and the Chantry in DA:O, but in DA2, it was way, way, way too much. We're talking orders of magnitude.

I guess when it comes right down to it, I was okay with the DA:O chantry's depiction as a non-mandatory religion that believed in Andraste and was vague enough to bear little resemblance to real world religions. The over-the-top emphasis the Christian-analog Chantry got in DA2, combined with the fact that Hawke's soundset made it clear that religion was now mandatory triggered my innate aversion to real-world religion. I cannot swallow what is shoved down my throat.

Modifié par berelinde, 03 avril 2012 - 05:32 .

[OMTING52601]

There are some aspects of the Chantry I'm okay with, but those things aren't the parts associated with organized religion. I like the idea of a place where mage born children can go - when they are cast off by their families - to be taken care of and cared for, where they can learn how to control their abilities and can be Harrowed (tested) so they know they can withstand the temptations of demons.

Anything more than that, I can't support. Once a mage passes their Harrowing, they should be allowed to leave is they CHOOSE. That's the big part, if mages CHOOSE to stay in the Chantry, great, but they shouldn't be forced there. Further, if mage blooded parents want to raise their own children, that shouldn't be an issue. It's kind of like Isabella says when Fenris asks her about mage freedom: just because some mages don't behave the 'right' way, that doesn't mean they all need to be treated like prisoners or, like in Kirkwall, like animals. Everyone should have the innate right to freedom, be they good or evil.

But that's something the organized Chantry just can't abide. And that's why I can't ever imagine actually backing the Chantry without question.

[The dead fish]

Yes, I do like the chantry, I like / love Petrice, I like Leliana, and I like how it feels real and visceral. This is what we need in a story. I like the chantry because it brings much to the dragon age's universe, the dragon age's story.

[esper]

Lynata wrote...

esper wrote...
Granted she may have influence with the Divine who seems open to new ideas, so we might be facing a split in the chantry religion soon wiht one part of the chantry going in one direction and the other in the direction it is on now

Why do you think so? From all I've read these tendencies have always existed in the Chantry, and apart from the White Divine / Black Divine split between Orlais and Tevinter I do not see a shism at all. The Divine's opinion isn't that "new" or "revolutionary"; the fact she was able to rise to this position itself is pretty exemplary of this and the Chantry has had similar developments in the past. Yes, the Circles once were even more oppressive.

Any larger organization has "sub-factions" with different tendencies. This goes for religion as much as it goes for governments. This is part of how a religion or a government or a company evolves over time - when said tendencies manage to gain more influence than the conservative parties. In rare cases where there is a disconnect between entire divisions (regional or departmential), this may lead to a split, but more often than not it is merely an act of adaptation for individuals scattered throughout the entire organization (who are thus unable to form any larger resistance against the new developments), and Divine Justinia has the Chant of Light to back her up.

The only problem are the templars and the seekers who seem to split off from the Chantry now, as they were a separate department and not - like the clerics - scattered. Though I do have to wonder whether or not there won't be templar garrisons who would prefer sticking with the Chantry (regional disconnect overriding the departmential), hence I'm eager to see how this will develop further.

esper wrote...
As for the Maker. I assume he isn't real, even in Thedas, but as the Chantry describes him he is evil, and since their version is the Maker they are trying to get back...

Um? Where does the Chantry describe him as "evil"? Are you sure you're not letting your real life opinion about religion cloud your judgment?

From what I've seen, the Maker is credited with creating Thedas and mankind. He helped the people to free themselves from Tevinter (in the form of his prophetess Andraste). He gifted mankind with magic. He teaches that compassion is good and that unjust violence, theft or lies are bad. And finally, he sheperds the souls of the deceased so that they may find peace in eternity.

Doesn't sound evil to me at all, sorry.

The Maker helped the people after felling in love and starting a relentionship with a married woman. For that reason alone. If that is not the wrong reason to start helping people I don't know what is. And that is after abandoning his first children because... they weren't perfect. (And mind you the not perfect part is pure virtues, meaning that he doesn't want virtues. He wants our sins.). Then he punished mankin for those sin by dealing out an punishment who arguealy hits the innocent harder than the guilty; The architecht and corephues punishement is nothing compared to what the women who are turned into broodmothers have to go through, not to mention the 100 of years of people who have nothing to do with these five-to six magister, are punished. Then he gets mad when people arguely understanable aren't entirely happy with Andraste (What did he expect, he  created mankin sinfull. Did he think that her real husband would not be jealous, his wife were having an affair with a god.). Luckly he just goes back to the abandoment politic this time instead of creating another world destroying blight on the world.

I don't want my soul shepharded by such a god, I would rather wander the Fade enternally, have it eaten by a demon or burned in the void or whatever happens in the Thedan euquality of the Fade than I've would have it anywhere near a Deity who is so moody that neglect and abandoment is his good moods, while outright abusive is his bad mood. Whatever hell is it is no worse than what the Maker could decide to do if he suddenly had a mood swing again.

As for Leliana and the Chantry, She out right states that is is so. The offical version of the chant is not her version, and since she is as pro-chantry as they get I tend to beleive her on that. (And her version is only slightly better)

And I am positive towards real life religions. But I am not postive towards abusive relentionships and the Maker,  as the chantry tells it, is abusive and everybody is better off without his attention. At least when he is moping he is not realising world destroying disasters on the world.

Edit. Double standards replies to gods too. You cannot teach that compassion is good, and unjust theft and violence is bad, when you abandom your children and shows no compassion towards them  (The spirits), creates a world destroying disasters that is very much violent (the darkspawn) for riducules reason and commits some kind of spiritually adultery with a married woman. Actions speaks way louder than words, espcially when most people who preach the chant of light only remember those good advice only as an excuse to do nothing, but  understands them in their worst possible way when they want things their way (The treament of mages and the origanal ghettoization of elves for example).

Modifié par esper, 03 avril 2012 - 09:28 .

[TheShadowWolf911]

meh, truth be told i feel as though i hate the individuals, not so much the Chantry.........i just happen to hate alot of Chantry members.

Edit: Blaming a group for the actions of people when not all of them did anything or even agreed with said actions is a form of prejudice.

Modifié par TheShadowWolf911, 03 avril 2012 - 09:32 .

[esper]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

meh, truth be told i feel as though i hate the individuals, not so much the Chantry.........i just happen to hate alot of Chantry members.

Edit: Blaming a group for the actions of people when not all of them did anything or even agreed with said actions is a form of prejudice.

I don't blame the individuals, but if they as an organization as a whole act negatively and people can choose to be a part of it and leave it, then the individual loose a lot of sympaty. I want to see the organisation destroyed, but I would never target the lowly sister first who just preaches in a small city chantry and have next to no influence in the organisation, I would tagert the Divine, Grand Clerics, Mothers... in that order and only so far as it takes to make the organization crumble.

[_Arkayne_]

Sylvianus wrote...

 I like / love Petrice.

......................

[TheShadowWolf911]

esper wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

meh, truth be told i feel as though i hate the individuals, not so much the Chantry.........i just happen to hate alot of Chantry members.

Edit: Blaming a group for the actions of people when not all of them did anything or even agreed with said actions is a form of prejudice.

I don't blame the individuals, but if they as an organization as a whole act negatively and people can choose to be a part of it and leave it, then the individual loose a lot of sympaty. I want to see the organisation destroyed, but I would never target the lowly sister first who just preaches in a small city chantry and have next to no influence in the organisation, I would tagert the Divine, Grand Clerics, Mothers... in that order and only so far as it takes to make the organization crumble.

perhaps, but whose to say some of the more powerul/corrupt leaders don't overshadow the kinder, more accepting leaders?


theres never black and white, only shades of gray.

[esper]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

esper wrote...

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

meh, truth be told i feel as though i hate the individuals, not so much the Chantry.........i just happen to hate alot of Chantry members.

Edit: Blaming a group for the actions of people when not all of them did anything or even agreed with said actions is a form of prejudice.

I don't blame the individuals, but if they as an organization as a whole act negatively and people can choose to be a part of it and leave it, then the individual loose a lot of sympaty. I want to see the organisation destroyed, but I would never target the lowly sister first who just preaches in a small city chantry and have next to no influence in the organisation, I would tagert the Divine, Grand Clerics, Mothers... in that order and only so far as it takes to make the organization crumble.

perhaps, but whose to say some of the more powerul/corrupt leaders don't overshadow the kinder, more accepting leaders?


theres never black and white, only shades of gray.

Doesn't matter when the organisation (and this is an organisation that choose to be like this, not a group of people being born with a gene they have no power over) is corrupt. It needs to drastically change, loose influence in Orlais, loose its remaining military and stop thinking that its chant needs to be spread for the deity to return. I don't see it doing that non-violent, which is why the leaders of the Chantry do answers to its actions possible with their life. If there is a non-violent solution I'll take it, but I only see the matter getting worse, not better and I am not willing to wait for the Orlais/chantry or just Chantry empire cover the world instead of Tevinter.  

[hussey 92]

The chantry locks up mages and gets templars addicted to lyrium

[Maria Caliban]

I love the Chantry.

[Aldandil]

I don't think the Chantry is more or less despicable than any of the nation states. By modern standards, they're all in an illegitimate position of power. The Chantry could of course be considered more powerful and therefore more illegitimate, but basically it's the same. Arl Howe was a pretty bad guy, after all, proving that the way Ferelden as a nation is quite evil...

[TheShadowWolf911]

Aldandil wrote...

I don't think the Chantry is more or less despicable than any of the nation states. By modern standards, they're all in an illegitimate position of power. The Chantry could of course be considered more powerful and therefore more illegitimate, but basically it's the same. Arl Howe was a pretty bad guy, after all, proving that the way Ferelden as a nation is quite evil...

when you put it like that your raise a point.

regardless of how bad the guys/gals who run the chantry are, there are plenty of corrupt rulers of varying power who are just as bad if not worse.

[Vincent Laww]

I haven't read much of the material in this particular thread. However, going by the original thesis statement. I would say the Chantry isn't inherently evil, there are particular individuals that are fanatical, and hide there despicable actions behind the guise of the Chantry. For instance, Mother Petrice proactively incites a rally against the Kossith. I believe they think what you're doing is just, but more often than not they're just self righteous, and full of zeal. They believe by shackling the mages helps subvert a crisis from occurring. The fact that different factions exist in the Chantry shows there is a difference of opinion on the uses of magic. For example, the Black Chantry of Tevinter, versus the stock-standard Chantry. Basically they're pious by virtue of their nature, but unfortunately perceive mages as sub-humans. How they treat them is inexcusable. Laboring under a misapprehension that all mages are evil, and are blood mages is truly astounding.

[Tenshi]

i like chantry for almost same reason the most ppl love mages. they like them only because cool waving hands around with fire. i love templars because their armor is just awesome  

Modifié par xxx2emo4Uxxx, 04 avril 2012 - 12:09 .