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[Reashot]

i like them, i don't see why people always bashing them like what we used to do to Michael Jackson

[hussey 92]

Reashot wrote...

i like them, i don't see why people always bashing them like what we used to do to Michael Jackson

did we stop bashing Michael Jackson?

[Always Alice]

I've actually been trying to figure out my thoughts on this topic for a while now. Religion can be (and should be) a wonderful thing that ultimately guides you on the path to be a better person. Throughout my life I have seen the beauty of faith and its incredible effects. It can drive a person to persevere through the most gut-wrenching of circumstances, and forgive some of the most horrid people. I love the sense of community religion offers, and all the charitable works done. And, most importantly, it offers you a serene sense of spiritual fulfillment that is life-changing.

In Thedas, these positive aspects of religion can certainly be seen. You have Leliana, who comforts the distraught mages in the Circle tower and fights to stop the blight. You have Mother Ailis, who offers spiritual guidance and support for the rebels while also acting as a mother-figure to Loghain (and later Cailan). There’s the sister in Lothering who wanted the greedy merchant to lower his prices for the refugees. There’s also Elthina, who wants Sebastian to give up his quest for vengeance and forgive. And of course, we have Dorothea/Justinia V, who offers aid to a tortured bard and preaches that mages deserve to be cherished, not shunned. And let’s not forget Brother Burkel, who takes in a casteless woman and her child to care for them. Throughout the games, we see the Chantry acting as a place of comfort and refuge, and providing for those in need. It provides people with moral guidance, and something to aspire to.

I cannot believe for a second that an organization that preaches peacekeeping and righteousness is inherently evil. But can people do evil things in the name of this religion? Absolutely.

All you need to do is turn on the TV or glance at a history text to see how people grossly misuse the words of Christ and perform acts that would make Him weep. The same thing can be said for a large number of other religions as well. While a religion may promote peace and love, there will always be people who use it to further their own agendas, or completely miss the point. Dragon Age illustrates this as well; there’s Petrice, who manipulates the faith of others in order to start a holy war (I think she’s an excellent character, though). There’s Mother Bronach, who uses the Orlesian war to further her own position and makes her stance on mages known. And…that’s it, I think. The Revered Mother in Lothering may be passive-aggressive, but she isn’t corrupt. I remember the Mother in Amaranthine being concerned with tithing and worldly possessions, so I guess she could count. There are probably others that go against the virtues preached by their religion, but I can’t think of anymore off the top of my head.

We’ve seen plenty of corruption in institutions that are supposed to be good in both RL and the game. We’ve witnessed it in the City Guard, but I doubt anyone would advocate for the abolishment of that. Generalizing a whole group for the actions of a few seems…strange, for lack of a better word. The Chantry is hardly a hivemind. Just look at the conflict between Justinia’s progressivism and the more conservative teachings of other Chantry members! Brother Genitivi is a man of strong faith, yet he freely acknowledges that the Chantry accounts might exaggerate certain things, and finds other cultures fascinating. And of course, there’s Leliana and her liberal views.

I imagine the mage issue is the biggest factor is determining whether or not one likes the Chantry (unless you’re one of those people that automatically hates everyone and everything religious). This particular issue has been discussed to death on these forums, so I won’t talk about it too much here. For the record, I think the original idea of having a place where mages are free to learn and practice magic is a good one, though its evolution into a prison-like fortress leaves a lot to be desired (I do, however, think that without the Circle’s existence there would be a lot more abominations running around). The biggest issue I have with the Chantry is how it is used to demonize mages. Magic can certainly be considered a curse (it’s incredibly dangerous and requires a lot of responsibility, after all), but it is also stated in the Chant (numerous times) to be a gift. Luckily, things seem to be looking up on that front with the Chantry’s new leadership, but I’m not sure how many Mothers will be on board with Justinia’s teachings. DA3 should be interesting, at any rate.

The Chantry is an organized religion. That fact alone will either make it or break it for some people, which is slightly depressing imo. This metaphor might come back to bite me in the ass, but religion is like a gun. The person wielding it can do awful things with it, but it can also give you security and save you. Just as how some followers twist Andraste’s words into an excuse to hate, others live wonderful, charitable lives because of them. So no, I don’t hate the Chantry. But do I like it? I don’t know. I hardly think it’s this awful, demonic entity that so many people seem convinced it is, but at the same time I have some fundamental problems with it. Overall, I think it certainly helped Thedas more than it hurt it, and that's enough for me.

Modifié par Always Alice, 04 avril 2012 - 08:26 .

[hussey 92]

The Chantry isn't inherently evil, but they control a military (the Templars), and like Velanna said in Awakening "All people with power never fail to abuse it, even those with good intentions"

[Jjacobclark]

we don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly around here

[Jjacobclark]

Reashot wrote...

i like them, i don't see why people always bashing them like what we used to do to Michael Jackson

we blasted michael jackson because he is a pedophile

[hussey 92]

yes to Jjacobclark's post^

[WardenWade]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Like real religious groups, there is beauty in it if you can find it. Leliana and Sebastian showcase the goodness of that as characters, for example.

But then you have those like Petrice, who showcase the bad. But like everything, it can be corruptible, and it would be naive to think otherwise.

So I don't hate the chantry, but I hate those who may be a part of it that abuse the power given to them.

This is a good point.  The Chantry can be very repressive and cruel depending on who is at the helm, and not just to mages, but on the other hand it gives alms to the poor and shelters the desperate.  Sometimes it even spurs people to good works and changes their lives in positive ways (such as Leliana, as you mentioned LinksOcarina, or Silas Corthwaite).  In Lothering the templars were the only thing standing between the townsfolk and darkspawn, for example, and the Chantry provides what is probably the best education in Thedas.  It's a lot of very gray area IMO.

[esper]

Aldandil wrote...

I don't think the Chantry is more or less despicable than any of the nation states. By modern standards, they're all in an illegitimate position of power. The Chantry could of course be considered more powerful and therefore more illegitimate, but basically it's the same. Arl Howe was a pretty bad guy, after all, proving that the way Ferelden as a nation is quite evil...

The King and Queens doesn't have the Divine right to rule that our monarch at some point had. The Chantry and the templars think they does.
I would take a 'earthly' dictator over a dictator with a 'divine right' any day.

[Vakarianfan94]

 THE CHANTRY ARE WAR CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First they enslave mages for the sins of a small few, then they march on the elves for not beliving in the maker and now plan an exalted march on orzammar. 


When i first saw what Anders does at the end of DA2 i cheered, jumped out of my seat and was glad someone finally did something about them idiots who are a worse threat to the world than any arch-demon......

I support mages and all non-humans!!!

[Lynata]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...
First they enslave mages for the sins of a small few, then they march on the elves for not beliving in the maker and now plan an exalted march on orzammar.

Psst... that Exalted March was in reaction to the elves massacring the entire population of an innocent human town near the Dales...

But hey, facts, right? 

Always Alice wrote...
[stuff]

As an atheist and someone who believes that religion is not necessary to achieve the positive effects you mentioned ... I still agree wholeheartedly with your post, both concerning the Chantry as well as religion as a whole.

+1 to you 

[LobselVith8]

Lynata wrote...

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

First they enslave mages for the sins of a small few, then they march on the elves for not beliving in the maker and now plan an exalted march on orzammar.

Psst... that Exalted March was in reaction to the elves massacring the entire population of an innocent human town near the Dales...

But hey, facts, right?  

I believe Vakarianfan94 is addressing the fact that the Dalish Warden's codex about the fall of the Dales addresses that the Dalish claim that the war transpired because the elves kicked the Chantry missionaries out of the Dales, and the Chantry responded by sending templars into sovereign territory.

The Dalish codex and the Chantry codex about the fall of the Dales provide contradicting reasons for the Exalted March on the Dales.

[Vakarianfan94]

I mean the chantry hates what they can't control mages, elves Qunari..... it's foolish to belive anything they say

[CuriousArtemis]

Nope, can't say I like the Chantry because it reminds me of the Catholic church (I'm pretty a-religious/agnostic but brought up Catholic.)

[Archontor]

They're a religion, they have no right to rule the world and yet they threaten kingdoms that try not to be utter dicks to the mages. They prepare for crusade against sovereign dwarven territory just for allowing a free circle of magi in one ending (even though an out of the way mountain surrounded by a people nearly immune to magic sounds ideal)

[Vakarianfan94]

plus we find out they plan to march on kirkwall in sebastion's quest in act 3 of DA2 and kill everyone in the city even civilians and chantry preists just to stop a mage rebellion that should have happened 1000 years ago

[Vakarianfan94]

Archontor wrote...

They're a religion, they have no right to rule the world and yet they threaten kingdoms that try not to be utter dicks to the mages. They prepare for crusade against sovereign dwarven territory just for allowing a free circle of magi in one ending (even though an out of the way mountain surrounded by a people nearly immune to magic sounds ideal)

The qunari are a religion yet they should be and are able to rule since most qunari join the Qun but in the case of the chantry you are right, since most humans have no connection to them

[Carmen_Willow]

When the Imperium fell to the barbarians, Thedas' equivalent of the Dark Ages began as the empire crumbled and warring tribal factions fought. It was the rising religious theocracy of the Chantry that saved what little knowledge and history was left after the wars. They were the small light in the growing darkness of chaotic realignment that comes after an empire falls. Civilization coalesced around this religious organization and was the "sand in the oyster" that allowed culture to reform.

Every civilization sees this rise and fall. An old empire crumbles, chaos reigns and a new empire/culture arises until it, too, grows old and crumbles. The cycle is eternal but not the empires it creates. Do I really like the Chantry? The Chantry was the cultural salvation of sentient kind after the Imperium fell, but it has now grown old and increasingly out of step with its time. Chaos will again reign as the Chantry is sundered and the cycle will begin anew.

I don't really like the Chantry but I understand its historical necessity and the reasons why it is now time to remove it. What will arise to take its place is anyone's guess. But decades of chaos and violence are predicted before the next player takes the stage.

[Vakarianfan94]

Yeah sure they "claimed" to have saved human history but they destroyed elven history and all trace of arlathan

[Carmen_Willow]

What little knowledge was retained from the Imperium was retained by the Chantry. I have no doubt that some things were "purged." All new political/social/religious organizations do that. But without the Chantry, all of it may have been lost. Certainly in our own dark ages, what little was saved from the ancient western civilizations occurred because of the church. That the Chantry destroyed the Arlathan culture is true, but it is also what occurs when a new culture supercedes the old. What ever takes the Chantry's place will no doubt do the same thing. The old gods of the prior culture become the demons of the new, the old heros become the villains.

Again, I am not saying I like the Chantry. They are every bit as repressive as their predecessors, but they are inevitable. If not Andraste's followers, then some other group with an idea. And the Chantry will be overturned by the next big cultural idea. It goes 'round and 'round. Only the cycle is eternal.

[Always Alice]

As an atheist and someone who believes that religion is not necessary to achieve the positive effects you mentioned ... I still agree wholeheartedly with your post, both concerning the Chantry as well as religion as a whole.

+1 to you 

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

The qunari are a religion yet they should be and are able to rule since most qunari join the Qun but in the case of the chantry you are right, since most humans have no connection to them

...

...wait, what? Please explain how you reached this conclusion.

[Always Alice]

motomotogirl wrote...

Nope, can't say I like the Chantry because it reminds me of the Catholic church (I'm pretty a-religious/agnostic but brought up Catholic.)

lol I'm kind of the opposite. I too was brought up Catholic, but because of how much religion has helped me throughout my life I often feel compelled to defend the Chantry, despite the fact that I have some issues with their teachings. Even though the the Andrastian Chantry and the Medieval RCC have many similarities, they also have some fundamental differences I think a lot of people tend to ignore in favor of projection. The base-breaking mage issue, for example, has no RL equivalent, and the doctrine is drastically different (a personal god vs. an absent one).

Modifié par Always Alice, 06 avril 2012 - 06:19 .

[Vakarianfan94]

Always Alice wrote...

As an atheist and someone who believes that religion is not necessary to achieve the positive effects you mentioned ... I still agree wholeheartedly with your post, both concerning the Chantry as well as religion as a whole.

+1 to you 

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

The qunari are a religion yet they should be and are able to rule since most qunari join the Qun but in the case of the chantry you are right, since most humans have no connection to them

...

...wait, what? Please explain how you reached this conclusion.

I mean the chantry have no right to have any kind of power beyond their own members because they have no place in government, Whereas the qun for example is both the religion and government to the qunairi so they do have the right, the chantry are just usurpers who murder anyone who does not follow their ways, no better than the darkspawn

[Vakarianfan94]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

What little knowledge was retained from the Imperium was retained by the Chantry. I have no doubt that some things were "purged." All new political/social/religious organizations do that. But without the Chantry, all of it may have been lost. Certainly in our own dark ages, what little was saved from the ancient western civilizations occurred because of the church. That the Chantry destroyed the Arlathan culture is true, but it is also what occurs when a new culture supercedes the old. What ever takes the Chantry's place will no doubt do the same thing. The old gods of the prior culture become the demons of the new, the old heros become the villains.

Again, I am not saying I like the Chantry. They are every bit as repressive as their predecessors, but they are inevitable. If not Andraste's followers, then some other group with an idea. And the Chantry will be overturned by the next big cultural idea. It goes 'round and 'round. Only the cycle is eternal.

But arlathan was a seperate empire with no connection to the chantry so they had no reason or right to do what they did, again no better than darkspawn