1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

NKKKK wrote...

But not  blood mages. They also don't run rampant with Abominations.

Zathrian used blood magic to create a centuries long curse and grant himself immortality

[Lotion Soronarr]

I agree, but it's more how it is spread than anything. If a people do not want to "learn the way", then well enough should be left alone. If it isn't, it leads to aggression or even war. It was the cause of the fall of the Dales and also essentially of the Exalted Marches on the Tevinter Imperium (although they were performing very sinister rituals using slaves' live energy to fuel their blood magic) so I think I can see more reason for that). I'm not too big on the lore in the game to be honest. I'm just going by what I think I remember, so don't hate on me too much.

Basically, "we don't understand these people, so we'll just kill them all in the Maker's name and all will be sugar and rainbows".

I agree wiht you. But note that "spreading the word" does not imply by force of arms.

The fall of the Dales and war on Tevinter are both murky matters, and simply saiying the Exhalted Marches were called because they wanted to convert them is an overly simplistic view IMHO. (especially sicne the Chantry is saying otherwise)

Religion, and humanity itself, are complex, so attributing everything to a single motivation just doesn't sit right with me.

[Underoath]

Trintrin86 wrote...

I'm not religious. I like the function of the Chantry. It seems to be generally good and well intentioned. It has it's corrupt elements and the treatment of mages to make it a little morally ambiguous, and I really enjoy the fact that there is just enough "evidence" on both sides of the maker exists/doesn't exist argument to make it really interesting.

Whether or not my *character* likes the Chantry is totally a function of how I want to play that character. For example, my mage was actually rather devout, she's felt the temptation of a demon and felt it was her faith in the Maker that kept her strong. My agnostic CE came to the Maker after the ashes healed Arl Eamon. My HN couldn't care less and my DN thought that the whole notion was ridiculous and worthy of contempt.

Count me in as someone who thinks it's silly to unilaterally dismiss a fictional religion in a fantasy setting as "bad" because a player has a real life dislike of real religions.

Actually, I don't tend to compare the chantry policies to religion (except for some of the corruption) all that much despite the fact that it is a religion in the game. I normally end up comparing it to United States policies. Lots of people dislike the United States because they "put their noses where they are not wanted"; however, that does not mean they are not needed.

Both the chantry and the US seem to be blamed for all the bad in the world, yet they give out more help than everyone else despite there "disliked/despised/haughty/overbearing/etc" policies.
 
I get a feeling people may not like my post....oh well.

As for the game, I sort of like the chantry though some of the people in it annoyed me to high heavens.

[Beerfish]

I like the Chantry and the people that it helps in just about every town you go into probably appreciate them as well. As others have said the organization does some dubious things and waivers in the wind on some things but they seem to do a lot of good and are an important organization.

[HopHazzard]

I don't, strictly speaking, like the chantry. But I don't hate it either. Though I am uncomfortable with religious organizations wielding political power.

[lnicol1900]

The problem, as many have already said, is that no matter what religion you're looking at, fictional or real, there will always be believers who take it too far. Belief and opinion is fine, but there's not only one out there and, in truth, none of them are right or wrong.

For me, religion is not a big part of my life, never has been. That said, I've no problem with anyone sharing their beliefs with me and, even if I disagree, I'll respect them. The one thing I can't stand is forcing particular beliefs onto someone. Sharing beliefs and forcing them upon others is not the same thing, but it can be a very fine line between them.

Concerning the Chantry, I've no problem with it as an organised religion in the game, and in fact I find the actual religion and lore quite facinating. It has its good points and bad points as all things do, and it has some policies that could probably do with getting reviewed and altered. What turns me against it, however, is how some of the believers make their beliefs "in my face" at times.

The dwarven and Dalish religions don't have the same outspoken presence in the game, even the Qun for that matter. Like I said, religion isn't a big part of my life and I'm also quite a quiet individual, so I tend to shy away from things that are loud and flashy.

Even if this is just a game and clearly not something to be taken too seriously, it still affects me, which is what this thread is about, isn't it?

[Drz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Morrigan is an apostate, not a maleficar.

In Witch Hunt, the Chantry puts a bounty on her head because they suspect she's a blood mage (the codex for the Orlesian Warden). Yes, without proof of any kind, they're going to ask for people to hunt her down and murder her because they merely think she could be a blood mage.

Wasn't the dark ritual a blood magic spell? Or just an ancient ritual?

[blothulfur]

Yes cast down the chantry and make war upon them bas, let your nations send their armies against the lapdogs of the orlesian emperor and his pet divine for they have opressed you for far too long. Squander all your might in overthrowing these dictators.

Hahahahaha.

[rabidhanar]

Rise up to destroy those who have oppressed you. The Corrupt Chantry says much but has no proof. The chant of light is a creation dedicated to enslaving the masses towards a small elect group!

[Erani]

I don't hate the Chantry, but their self-righteous and intolerant attitude towards elves and mages is just plain wrong. I dislike the Chantry a lot, and also dislike how they control Templars by exploiting their lyrium addition. I believe in the "Maker" and overall the religious lore in the game is pretty interesting, but I don't think the Chantry should be all-powerful. To me, they self-nominated to be divine enforcers. The Maker has left and so the Chantry has no authority to speak in "his" name.

[ObserverStatus]

I don't particularly like the Chantry, but I see it as the only thing capable of uniting Thedas against the Qunari menace. The Chantry might be mean to mages, but they don't treat them like farm animals.

[Elsariel]

HopHazzard wrote...

I don't, strictly speaking, like the chantry. But I don't hate it either. Though I am uncomfortable with religious organizations wielding political power.

This is exactly how I feel.  The Chantry has some good in it, but it also has some bad.  I like the way Leliana thinks.  She believes in the Maker and the good in everyone, but doesn't always agree with the practices of the Chantry and recognizes there are those in the religion who are all self-serving and greedy with power. 

That's why I always tell her I like her version of the Maker. 

[AlexXIV]

I don't like the Chantry for various reasons. I won't claim here that real life religions and my experience with them doesn't have anything to do with it, but there are enough in-game reasons for me to dislike them. For a start I wouldn't know why an organisation that claims to represent an almighty god does have to tolerate or even support injustice of any sort. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. The only way I could explain that is that either their god isn't almighty, their god doesn't exist, or this organisation doesn't really represent their supposed god.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 février 2011 - 03:30 .

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...

People are mentioning the dales exalted march.. But that wasn't called into effect until the dales had conquered pretty much all of Orlais between the dales and were marching on Val Royeux's doorstep. They also slaughtered many priests and decimated the chantry's.. It was really a war between Orlais and The Dales originally.
What I just said however, is also debatable as simply Chantry Propeganda.. Due to lack of evidence The March on the dales cannot be justified.. But for that same reason, It cannot really be condemned either. I mean there are sources provding reasoning for both sides of the argument.

Orlais and the Chantry have a symbiotic relationship with one another. The Chantry supported the invasion of Ferelden, after all. According to the Dalish Warden's Dalish codex entry:

"We could once again forget the incessant passage of time. Our people began the slow process of recovering the culture and traditions we had lost to slavery. But it was not to last. The Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars. We were driven from Halamshiral, scattered."

That seems to indicate that it wasn't simply an issue between the Dales and Orlais.

Its also a bias viewpoint however, Just like everything the chantry says regarding the incident.  Neither side can say they were the victim and the other side were in the wrong. Neither of them have sufficient evidence and by exstention. neither do we

But it's clear that the situation did involve the Chantry, not merely Orlais.

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't like the Chantry for various reasons. I won't claim here that real life religions and my experience with them doesn't have anything to do with it, but there are enough in-game reasons for me to dislike them. For a start I wouldn't know why an organisation that claims to represent an almighty god does have to tolerate or even support injustice of any sort. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. The only way I could explain that is that either their god isn't almighty, their god doesn't exist, or this organisation doesn't really represent their supposed god.

Not all gods are pure paragons of light however.. Many are Wrathful and eager for Vengeance. Many are outright evil. Whos to say the creator of Thedas isn't evil.... Which he most certainly is as he feeds off our tears (Referring to Mr Gaider)

[Ndutz]

Drazlol wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ramante wrote...

Morrigan is an apostate, not a maleficar.

In Witch Hunt, the Chantry puts a bounty on her head because they suspect she's a blood mage (the codex for the Orlesian Warden). Yes, without proof of any kind, they're going to ask for people to hunt her down and murder her because they merely think she could be a blood mage.

Wasn't the dark ritual a blood magic spell? Or just an ancient ritual?

Its both i guess. Before doing the dark ritual you can actually ask Morrigan wether it's blood magic.  She'll simply say along the line of  Blood Magic is but a name and the ritual has already existed  before such names were given. But she didnt deny it.

Finn uses a form blood magic too in witch hunt right.

[Underoath]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't like the Chantry for various reasons. I won't claim here that real life religions and my experience with them doesn't have anything to do with it, but there are enough in-game reasons for me to dislike them. For a start I wouldn't know why an organisation that claims to represent an almighty god does have to tolerate or even support injustice of any sort. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. The only way I could explain that is that either their god isn't almighty, their god doesn't exist, or this organisation doesn't really represent their supposed god.

The organization isn't correctly representing their Diety is the correct choice out of those three things. Just b/c people do the wrong thing doesn't mean their deity doesn't exist or that the deity isn't almighty.

As for the game, the chantry isn't all bad imo. They do a lot of good.

[Mlaar]

lnicol1900 wrote...
 What turns me against it, however, is how some of the believers make their beliefs "in my face" at times.

The dwarven and Dalish religions don't have the same outspoken presence in the game, even the Qun for that matter. Like I said, religion isn't a big part of my life and I'm also quite a quiet individual, so I tend to shy away from things that are loud and flashy.

none of their religions have any outspoken presence in game at the moment for you have spent so little time within thier borders, Fereldens predominent faith is in the Maker so it stands to reason it will be as you say "in your face" if the original game was based in Qunari lands you would turn against the Qun for some extent. I agree with your sentiments about having faith pushed into your face as I believe its one of the biggest turn offs towards faith.

In game I found the chantry shown very well with smaller outlying villages having a small parish where the religous leader was well thought about by the community it came across that these areas the populace would worship the maker because 1. it was the only religion they knew and 2. the chantry were more likely to pitch in and help out around the village, I would have liked to have seen more of the chantry involvment in the big city as this is where church politics would play out the preachers I tend to believe would have less of the personal touch with thier flock and more power play would be involved sounds like da2 will touch on this so I look forward to the corruption behind the scenes (I hope)

On the whole I think the devs have created a believable religion so all credit to them as for personal feelings on religion well lets just say I agree its a good thing as belief is a powerful motivator it matters not who you worship for no religion is entirly right or wrong just that it can give you inspiration to become all that you can be.

[seif9]

I actually kind of like the chantry and tend to side with them

[AlexXIV]

Underoath wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't like the Chantry for various reasons. I won't claim here that real life religions and my experience with them doesn't have anything to do with it, but there are enough in-game reasons for me to dislike them. For a start I wouldn't know why an organisation that claims to represent an almighty god does have to tolerate or even support injustice of any sort. That doesn't seem to make sense to me. The only way I could explain that is that either their god isn't almighty, their god doesn't exist, or this organisation doesn't really represent their supposed god.

The organization isn't correctly representing their Diety is the correct choice out of those three things. Just b/c people do the wrong thing doesn't mean their deity doesn't exist or that the deity isn't almighty.

As for the game, the chantry isn't all bad imo. They do a lot of good.

They do good things for sure, that's why I dislike them but not outright hate them. Anyway I think they could do better. And I think it is a difference if you regard the chantry sister helping out needy in some slum or battlefield or the high and mighty clerics of Orlais who mostly sit on their arses and enjoy life.

[ObserverStatus]

aaniadyen wrote...

What I really don't understand is why the chantry having parallels to the Catholic church is so damning. What difference does it make?

A lot of people on this site are bigots, that's why.

[Bad King]

A lot of your squad mates in game dislike the Chantry.

Alistair dislikes them mainly because of their power over the Templars (they control them by 'addicting' them to lyrium).

Leliana doesn't like their arrogance and their pessimistic view that the Maker has turned his back on creation (she claims that the Chantry wants to feel special).

Morrigan is apostate and has been hunted often by the chantry, so naturally she dislikes them.

Sten is Qunari and Qunari tend not to like the Chantry (especially after their marches against the Qunari).

I personally dislike them for what they did to the Dales. Regardless of who attacked first, the Chantry bred religious intolerance amongst the human armies and sacked and destroyed the elven cities. Pretty barbaric.

Modifié par Bad King, 01 février 2011 - 03:48 .

[Lord_Saulot]

I like the Chantry. Think about gun control. I mean even just basic gun control like background checks or not letting convicts buy guns.



Then think about a world where people have assault rifles built into their arms and conjure nuclear weapons with a thought, and alien intelligences actively seek these people out to use them. It sure is a good thing that someone is doing something about that, right?



As for chantry politics - all human institutions have politics. That is no reason to have a bias in favor or against.

[AlexXIV]

[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...


Not all gods are pure paragons of light however.. Many are Wrathful and eager for Vengeance. Many are outright evil. Whos to say the creator of Thedas isn't evil.... Which he most certainly is as he feeds off our tears (Referring to Mr Gaider)

[/quote]

I'd be assuming a creator of the world or almighty god would rather be benevolent than evil. Unless it's an evil world ofc.

[AlexXIV]

Bad King wrote...

A lot of your squad mates in game dislike the Chantry.

Alistair dislikes them mainly because of their power over the Templars (they control them by 'addicting' them to lyrium).

Leliana doesn't like their arrogance and their pessimistic view that the Maker has turned his back on creation (she claims that the Chantry wants to feel special).

Morrigan is apostate and has been hunted often by the chantry, so naturally she dislikes them.

Sten is Qunari and Qunari tend not to like the Chantry (especially after their marches against the Qunari).

I personally dislike them for what they did to the Dales. Regardless of who attacked first, the Chantry bred religious intolerance amongst the human armies and sacked and destroyed the elven cities. Pretty barbaric.

Oghren and Shale dislike the Chantry because they are dwarfs. Wynne because she is a mage. Which doesn't really leave anyone who wholeheartly embraces the Chantry.