1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Jademoon121]

My attitudes towards the Chantry are the same as I have to most other organized religions real or imaginary. I greatly appreciate all their charity work and their actions in celebrating culture and preserving order in chaos by establishing tradition, but If I said anything else on the topic I'd be sounding like a more polite Morrigan.

Let's just say that forcing beliefs on others in the name of Utopia, getting into people's private lives via government, and celebrating the idea that we're all somehow flawed seems...disturbing to me. Needless enough, if I were a Thedosian I'd donate to the Chantry and hear a few Chants of Light here and there, just don't expect me to be present when the discussion of the Dales or Mages come up.

Modifié par Jademoon121, 06 avril 2012 - 10:49 .

[jmd4]

**Mild allusions to spoilery things below**

I think unreasoning belief in the Chantry is wrong, just as unreasoning hatred of the Chantry is wrong. DAO (and even DA2, in spite of its agenda against the Chantry) depicted a Chantry that, like any religious institution, was made up of good and bad. I support the Chantry and I thought it was a huge mistake to land such a crushing blow against it in both DA2 and Asunder--a waste of a great institution/antagonist/narrative element of the world.

That being said, I don't have an iron-clad thesis for this position but here goes.

For those who hate the Chantry and want to see it utterly destroyed, I can only wonder. Yes, the Chantry is flawed, yes, it oppresses mages, yes, your PC may not believe in the Maker and wants to stop hearing about the Chant of Light. However, this is the same Chantry that takes in refugees, orphans, homeless, that gives alms to the poor, that educates people, that actually does some good. It is a source of hope and faith for many in Thedas. Its philosophy damns mages but at the same time it is a force of goodness. Yes, it is rigid and inflexible in its beliefs, but name me an ancient institution that isn't. That being said, it isn't beyond change and redemption. In Asunder, we saw the seeds of some of that potential, though it was wasted IMO.

I like the Chantry. It has given us some good people (Alistair, Dorothea, the sisters in Denerim, Redcliffe, and Lothering, Leliana, etc.) and it can be a force of good. You may dislike the Chantry but the good it does is as real as the wrongs it does and is just as important.

**Spoilery allusions ended**

[Circle_Mage]

I like the Chantry as well. Certainly it is not perfect, but it does do many good things for Thedas, such as providing for the less fortunate and taking in those who need the security that the Chantry provides, such as Leliana. Naturally, it's modeled on the church that we know in real life, but I think it's important to keep in mind that this game is set in a fantasy world and to try to divorce your feelings about Christianity or other organized religions from the Chantry. The Chantry isn't a real world institution, after all. As I always play mages, I certainly see where the Chantry oppresses innocents in the name of a greater good, but what would be the alternative? The world is hardly ready for mages running free given years of Andrastian teaching that mages are dangerous and evil. And mages, living a relatively soft life in a tower, are not precisely equipped to deal with the real world, such as having to work like everyone else. They have no real "life skills". I think the Chantry-overseen Circle Towers are important for both the protection of mages from the rest of the world, as much as for the commonfolk from the mages. Yes, it's oppression, mages being punished for a quirk of their birth, bad luck or what-have-you, and, yes, the Chantry does view mages as something that needs to be restrained, but it is also in an effort to protect mages.

When I consider whether the Chantry is good, or at least of value, I think of the templars and Chantry members in Lothering, though Redcliffe is a good example too. When others ran, the templars and the Revered Mother stayed to protect the people for as long as they could. They gave the people of Lothering and surrounding areas a better chance then they would have had otherwise, even though it was ultimately a lost cause. The actions of the Lothering Chantry, for me at least, display the best of the Chantry - service, compassion, dedication. And, it's worth noting, the templar Ser Bryant knows that Morrigan and mage warden are, indeed, mages, and does not care as long as you behave. The Revered Mother in Redcliffe also knows a mage when she sees one and doesn't call the templars down on you as she's only concerned with keeping the townsfolk safe. I can't ignore that the Chantry has done dispicable things in the past, but I'm not sure we can just throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Chantry also embodies some noble aspects and does good in the world. Do I like the Chantry? Yes, I do. My mage wardens do too. Also, after Broken Circle, when you return the the Calenhad docks, there is a templar praying for the souls of the mages and templars who died fighting for the Circle. Both the Chantry and the mages working together.  That's the Chantry talking there, and it sounds quite accepting.

Modifié par Circle_Mage, 07 avril 2012 - 02:11 .

[Carmen_Willow]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

Carmen_Willow wrote...

What little knowledge was retained from the Imperium was retained by the Chantry. I have no doubt that some things were "purged." All new political/social/religious organizations do that. But without the Chantry, all of it may have been lost. Certainly in our own dark ages, what little was saved from the ancient western civilizations occurred because of the church. That the Chantry destroyed the Arlathan culture is true, but it is also what occurs when a new culture supercedes the old. What ever takes the Chantry's place will no doubt do the same thing. The old gods of the prior culture become the demons of the new, the old heros become the villains.

Again, I am not saying I like the Chantry. They are every bit as repressive as their predecessors, but they are inevitable. If not Andraste's followers, then some other group with an idea. And the Chantry will be overturned by the next big cultural idea. It goes 'round and 'round. Only the cycle is eternal.

But arlathan was a seperate empire with no connection to the chantry so they had no reason or right to do what they did, again no better than darkspawn

Does any culture have the right to overturn another?  Did the Angles and Saxons have the right to overturn the Celtic culture of ancient Britain? Did the Vikings? Did the Normans have the right to overturn the Saxon culture?  And what of the Basques in Spain, a very old culture, overturned by another. Or the Minoans overrun by the Greeks? Canaan overtaken by the Israeli's who were, in turn, overrun by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Macedoneans, Greeks, Romans ad infinitum? Cultures, like governments are basically amoral. Usually, the culture with the most toys wins.

The Andrastian culture overran the Arlathan culture because it could. And now something else will over take the Chantry and replace it. Those who believe in Andraste and the Chantry may be just as hurt, exploited, and oppressed as the elves were. Culture change is often violent and unforgiving. It isn't about what is right; it is about what simply is. Ask the Mages, who used to be the masters of the universe how it feels. No elf is more exploited than the mages in the Andrastian world and yet, when mages ruled and in Tevinter, where they still rule, they exploit and oppress with glee.

[Silfren]

No, I don't like the (mainstream) Chantry. Whatever good the organization does is negated by not only its enslavement and oppression of mages, but its Exalted Marches against the elves and its insistence on homogenous religion and culture.

Modifié par Silfren, 08 avril 2012 - 06:39 .

[Legbiter]

It's the societal glue for much of Thedas. As such the failings of the Chantry are the failings of the people of Thedas.

[Jessihatt]

I like the Chantry too, as people have said it does a lot of good - taking in orphans, educating people etc, etc.
I even roleplay my mage Hawke as believing in the Maker.

I don't think there is a particular reason to hate the Chantry, but maybe some of the self-righteous zealots that belong to the faith.
I hate Mother Petrice and I dislike that Elthina wouldn't stop being neutral, and I hate certain Templars but I also like Cullen and Alistair and Gregoir and the Divine.

I think how it treats mages is wrong, but they are trying to help them. I hope Andraste was a mage though and someone procures proof and it changes things! 

Modifié par CommanderJessica, 08 avril 2012 - 07:11 .

[Vakarianfan94]

jmd4 wrote...

**Mild allusions to spoilery things below**

I think unreasoning belief in the Chantry is wrong, just as unreasoning hatred of the Chantry is wrong. DAO (and even DA2, in spite of its agenda against the Chantry) depicted a Chantry that, like any religious institution, was made up of good and bad. I support the Chantry and I thought it was a huge mistake to land such a crushing blow against it in both DA2 and Asunder--a waste of a great institution/antagonist/narrative element of the world.

That being said, I don't have an iron-clad thesis for this position but here goes.

For those who hate the Chantry and want to see it utterly destroyed, I can only wonder. Yes, the Chantry is flawed, yes, it oppresses mages, yes, your PC may not believe in the Maker and wants to stop hearing about the Chant of Light. However, this is the same Chantry that takes in refugees, orphans, homeless, that gives alms to the poor, that educates people, that actually does some good. It is a source of hope and faith for many in Thedas. Its philosophy damns mages but at the same time it is a force of goodness. Yes, it is rigid and inflexible in its beliefs, but name me an ancient institution that isn't. That being said, it isn't beyond change and redemption. In Asunder, we saw the seeds of some of that potential, though it was wasted IMO.

I like the Chantry. It has given us some good people (Alistair, Dorothea, the sisters in Denerim, Redcliffe, and Lothering, Leliana, etc.) and it can be a force of good. You may dislike the Chantry but the good it does is as real as the wrongs it does and is just as important.

**Spoilery allusions ended**

Alistar was forced into the chantry beyond his will and he hated it, he always talks about how dull and 1 sided they are but is too kind to say what he really thinks ( that he want's to kick the templars out of ferelden if he is king in DA2, and that without those psycopaths the world would be better, in the end alistar will side with the mages

[Vakarianfan94]

CommanderJessica wrote...

I like the Chantry too, as people have said it does a lot of good - taking in orphans, educating people etc, etc.
I even roleplay my mage Hawke as believing in the Maker.

I don't think there is a particular reason to hate the Chantry, but maybe some of the self-righteous zealots that belong to the faith.
I hate Mother Petrice and I dislike that Elthina wouldn't stop being neutral, and I hate certain Templars but I also like Cullen and Alistair and Gregoir and the Divine.

I think how it treats mages is wrong, but they are trying to help them. I hope Andraste was a mage though and someone procures proof and it changes things! 

Again alistar doesn't like templary by DA2 and the divine is ready too see every man, woman and child in kirkwall dead in act 3 sebastians quest, plus there are a million reasons too hate them

Modifié par Vakarianfan94, 08 avril 2012 - 07:44 .

[Vakarianfan94]

I am going back a few posts, the qunari (being being the most innoccent and strongest does have the right to overturn human culture, the chantry destroys everyone including themselves and any mesures should be taken to stop them, and while we are on the subject of the ANDRASTIAN chantry, she is their "Founder" in a way yet they enslave mages and elves when she would see them free,

how is that justified? the chantry is long gone and in it's place is a military orginization of raiders and slavers

Modifié par Vakarianfan94, 08 avril 2012 - 07:46 .

[Silfren]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

jmd4 wrote...

**Mild allusions to spoilery things below**

I think unreasoning belief in the Chantry is wrong, just as unreasoning hatred of the Chantry is wrong. DAO (and even DA2, in spite of its agenda against the Chantry) depicted a Chantry that, like any religious institution, was made up of good and bad. I support the Chantry and I thought it was a huge mistake to land such a crushing blow against it in both DA2 and Asunder--a waste of a great institution/antagonist/narrative element of the world.

That being said, I don't have an iron-clad thesis for this position but here goes.

For those who hate the Chantry and want to see it utterly destroyed, I can only wonder. Yes, the Chantry is flawed, yes, it oppresses mages, yes, your PC may not believe in the Maker and wants to stop hearing about the Chant of Light. However, this is the same Chantry that takes in refugees, orphans, homeless, that gives alms to the poor, that educates people, that actually does some good. It is a source of hope and faith for many in Thedas. Its philosophy damns mages but at the same time it is a force of goodness. Yes, it is rigid and inflexible in its beliefs, but name me an ancient institution that isn't. That being said, it isn't beyond change and redemption. In Asunder, we saw the seeds of some of that potential, though it was wasted IMO.

I like the Chantry. It has given us some good people (Alistair, Dorothea, the sisters in Denerim, Redcliffe, and Lothering, Leliana, etc.) and it can be a force of good. You may dislike the Chantry but the good it does is as real as the wrongs it does and is just as important.

**Spoilery allusions ended**

Alistar was forced into the chantry beyond his will and he hated it, he always talks about how dull and 1 sided they are but is too kind to say what he really thinks ( that he want's to kick the templars out of ferelden if he is king in DA2, and that without those psycopaths the world would be better, in the end alistar will side with the mages

Alistair may have been forced into the Chantry and didn't want to be a templar, but his own words in Origins make it clear he hardly hates the Chantry, and it isn't because he's simply "too kind" to say what he really thinks.  All of his comments about the Chantry--and his disapproving reactions to a Warden who takes an anti-Chantry stance speak to this.  He does make occasional comments that indicate he is far from a pro-Chantry zealot, but it's also perfectly clear he believes in what the Chantry ostensibly represents.  He's not anti-Chantry in the least.

[Vakarianfan94]

Their is plenty of dialogue in dao to support my comment, sure he objects to the defilement of the ashes ( so would anyone) but thats all he objects to the rest is not chantry centered, plus in da2 if hawke says "why not kick the templars out of ferelden and assume control of the chantry he says he would but that may cause more fighting or he doesn't have the power

Modifié par Vakarianfan94, 08 avril 2012 - 07:52 .

[Maria Caliban]

I love the Chantry.

[Silfren]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

Their is plenty of dialogue in dao to support my comment, sure he objects to the defilement of the ashes ( so would anyone) but thats all he objects to the rest is not chantry centered, plus in da2 if hawke says "why not kick the templars out of ferelden and assume control of the chantry he says he would but that may cause more fighting or he doesn't have the power

There are other examples beside the Sacred Ashes.  Throughout the game, Alistair approves of Chantry-supporting Wardens and disapproves of anything the Warden does that is anti-Chantry.  He also makes comments that reflect a strong belief in Andraste and the Maker.  None of that suggests that he hates the Chantry. 

You haven't provided anything that actually does reflect anti-Templar sentiment on his part.  I'd like a more direct quote from what he says about the templars in DA2, please. 

[Always Alice]

Vakarianfan94, Alistair doesn't hate the Chantry, even though he has a few issues with some of their practices. Remember how he freaks out when you threaten the Revered Mother in Lothering?

Vakarianfan94 wrote...
I am going back a few posts, the qunari (being being the most innoccent and strongest does have the right to overturn human culture, the chantry destroys everyone including themselves and any mesures should be taken to stop them, and while we are on the subject of the ANDRASTIAN chantry, she is their "Founder" in a way yet they enslave mages and elves when she would see them free,

how is that justified? the chantry is long gone and in it's place is a military orginization of raiders and slavers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're basically trying to say is that you believe the Qunari have the right to impose their religious doctrine on others, but you condemn the Chantry for doing the same thing...? Also, please tell me what makes the Qunari "innocent," when they are the invaders who came to forcibly convert others.

I do agree that Andraste would probably be horrified about some of the things done in her name, though.

[Carmen_Willow]

Alistair did not want to be a Templar, but he is a fairly devout Andrastian. He certainly supports the Chantry's position on abominations, blood magic and probably apostates. He routinely invokes the Maker's protection and blessings. "Maker turn his gaze on you,"

He is not fanatic, but I would say that his belief in the Maker is fairly well established and his support for the Church; i.e., the Chantry is fairly solid as well. He didn't want to be a Templar, but Alistair never gives any indication that he wants to be an apostate.

The Qunari are far from innocent. It is their goal to kill or convert every sentient being on the planet. I would say that their goals are even more narrow and blood thirsty than the Chantry. The Chantry is down on mages, but at least that arises from a logical and objective fear of what mages can do.

The Qunari, on the other hand see absolutely no one as an individual with individual rights. You either serve the State; i.e., the Qun, or you are drugged on a chemical that turns you into a mindless zombie and put to work in the mines (Listen to what Fenris tells Isabela about what happens to those who don't do well in the Qunari reeducation camps). In Qunari land you either make yourself tranquil by following the Qun or the Qunari do it for you with drugs instead of a magic rite. And it isn't just for mages, it's for everyone. The Qunari make the Chantry look like good guys.

[AnoraBlows]

A few things to note:

1. Unlike religions in real life, many Chantry claims about the Maker and Andraste have evidence that barely anyone doubts. The urn of sacred ashes, for example, cannot be doubted as a myth by us, the player, within the gameworld. To be objective in Thedas is to accept a lot of religious myth as fact because it is fact. It is in fact naive to be an Atheist in Thedas as it would be contrary to empirical evidence. That is not to say that everything the Chantry says is true or a fact, but the basic premise such as the divinity of Andraste cannot be doubted.

2. The Chantry is made up of humans. If you hate the Chantry, then that means you have to hate every other group in the game. Mages have blood mages and maleficarum. The Dalish have people like Zathrian (and if you read Dalish history, the Dalish elves haven't been the best of allies). Andraste, for example, helped the Dalish. It was the clergy of the Chantry that was formed after Andraste's death that reneged on the promise. Even the Dalish have respect for Andraste, although they don't believe in her divinity.

3. The Chantry is necessary. It is a unifying force and you'll realize that a lot of the quests that you do for the Chantry in the game are actually a force for good, not evil. Individuals within the Chantry such as a nasty sister who'll remain anonymous may try to push their own agenda but that is the case in every organization.

The religion of the dwarves is never shown as being separate from their culture. You'll notice that any dwarf that ends up believing in the Chantry religion stops making references to not just dwarven beliefs, but also things that would constitute culture.

The religion of the Dalish is yet to be decently explored. We haven't seen anyone from the Dalish or the dwarves challenge their religions, but we have seen plenty of Qunari challenge the Qun and plenty of Chantry followers challenge the Chantry. The entire dragon cult was an offshoot of Chantry beliefs. There's even an alternate Chantry in the Imperium. We're never shown sectarianism in dwarven religion or elven religion.

Modifié par AnoraBlows, 09 avril 2012 - 01:48 .

[Vilegrim]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

What I really don't understand is why the chantry having parallels to the Catholic church is so damning. What difference does it make?

It gives players an avenue for their prejudices to enter the gameworld. 

we can't use force to make the Catholic Church turn over it's thousands of peadophiles IRL....

[CuriousArtemis]

AnoraBlows wrote...

A few things to note:

1. Unlike religions in real life, many Chantry claims about the Maker and Andraste have evidence that barely anyone doubts. The urn of sacred ashes, for example, cannot be doubted as a myth by us, the player, within the gameworld. To be objective in Thedas is to accept a lot of religious myth as fact because it is fact. It is in fact naive to be an Atheist in Thedas as it would be contrary to empirical evidence. That is not to say that everything the Chantry says is true or a fact, but the basic premise such as the divinity of Andraste cannot be doubted.

In a world where magic is real, "magical ashes" that "magically" heal people can be explained away not necessarily as religious truth but as, well ... magic.

So, nope, there's no proof of god or gods in DA universe.

[Vakarianfan94]

Silfren wrote...

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

Their is plenty of dialogue in dao to support my comment, sure he objects to the defilement of the ashes ( so would anyone) but thats all he objects to the rest is not chantry centered, plus in da2 if hawke says "why not kick the templars out of ferelden and assume control of the chantry he says he would but that may cause more fighting or he doesn't have the power

There are other examples beside the Sacred Ashes.  Throughout the game, Alistair approves of Chantry-supporting Wardens and disapproves of anything the Warden does that is anti-Chantry.  He also makes comments that reflect a strong belief in Andraste and the Maker.  None of that suggests that he hates the Chantry. 

You haven't provided anything that actually does reflect anti-Templar sentiment on his part.  I'd like a more direct quote from what he says about the templars in DA2, please. 

this might not be word for word correct,
Alistar: the biggest threat to this city just walked out the door, i dont agree with how we treat mages,
Hawke: but isn't the circle in ferelden better,
Alistar: you would think so but no, mages are treated just the same, not that i agree,
Hawke: but your regent, surely you could just kick the templars out of ferelden and take over yourself,
Alistar: maybe, I will think about it,
 I'm not saying he hates the chantry but he would side with the mages if it xame to war and he was forced to choose sides 

[Vakarianfan94]

Always Alice wrote...

Vakarianfan94, Alistair doesn't hate the Chantry, even though he has a few issues with some of their practices. Remember how he freaks out when you threaten the Revered Mother in Lothering?

Vakarianfan94 wrote...
I am going back a few posts, the qunari (being being the most innoccent and strongest does have the right to overturn human culture, the chantry destroys everyone including themselves and any mesures should be taken to stop them, and while we are on the subject of the ANDRASTIAN chantry, she is their "Founder" in a way yet they enslave mages and elves when she would see them free,

how is that justified? the chantry is long gone and in it's place is a military orginization of raiders and slavers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're basically trying to say is that you believe the Qunari have the right to impose their religious doctrine on others, but you condemn the Chantry for doing the same thing...? Also, please tell me what makes the Qunari "innocent," when they are the invaders who came to forcibly convert others.

I do agree that Andraste would probably be horrified about some of the things done in her name, though.

Think of the mages as Ai's, the non-mages as organics and the qunari as reapers, eventually the ai's would wipe out the organics sice ai's are wrongly treated so the reapers have to step in to make sure they dont wipe each other out , exept no genocide, the qunari invade because the chantry are sworn enemies who harbour zelots who live to murder those of the qun like viscounts son who was murdered by suprise suprise, a chantry mother

[Always Alice]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

Always Alice wrote...

Vakarianfan94, Alistair doesn't hate the Chantry, even though he has a few issues with some of their practices. Remember how he freaks out when you threaten the Revered Mother in Lothering?

Vakarianfan94 wrote...
I am going back a few posts, the qunari (being being the most innoccent and strongest does have the right to overturn human culture, the chantry destroys everyone including themselves and any mesures should be taken to stop them, and while we are on the subject of the ANDRASTIAN chantry, she is their "Founder" in a way yet they enslave mages and elves when she would see them free,

how is that justified? the chantry is long gone and in it's place is a military orginization of raiders and slavers

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're basically trying to say is that you believe the Qunari have the right to impose their religious doctrine on others, but you condemn the Chantry for doing the same thing...? Also, please tell me what makes the Qunari "innocent," when they are the invaders who came to forcibly convert others.

I do agree that Andraste would probably be horrified about some of the things done in her name, though.

Think of the mages as Ai's, the non-mages as organics and the qunari as reapers, eventually the ai's would wipe out the organics sice ai's are wrongly treated so the reapers have to step in to make sure they dont wipe each other out , exept no genocide, the qunari invade because the chantry are sworn enemies who harbour zelots who live to murder those of the qun like viscounts son who was murdered by suprise suprise, a chantry mother

The Qunari have absolutely no problem whatsoever with getting rid of anyone who won't submit to the Qun, so  I wouldn't say that the Qunari particularly care if lives are lost. You  either convert or die. And they don't care about mages except as a possible resource. You DO know they treat them even worse then the Chantry does, right?

The Qunari aren't a bunch of paladins who fight against any injustice the Chantry perpetrates (and you realize Petrice was a radical who was condemned by the Grand Cleric, I hope). They don't dislike the Chantry because they harbor zealots, they dislike them because they are not of the Qun. Petrice committed an unjust action, but the Arishok wasn't any better when he ripped off Dumar's head and threw it across the floor.

I am always confused as to how some people despise the Chantry but find the Qun to be wonderful. The Qunari religion is FAR more oppressive.

[Always Alice]

Vilegrim wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...

What I really don't understand is why the chantry having parallels to the Catholic church is so damning. What difference does it make?

It gives players an avenue for their prejudices to enter the gameworld. 

we can't use force to make the Catholic Church turn over it's thousands of peadophiles IRL....

What are you even saying here? That people live vicariously through their DA characters an attempt to take down the Chantry because they can't take down the Church? (which is pretty sad but would not surpise me in the slightest) While the Chantry and RCC have similarities (particularly in the middle ages) there are fundamental differences both doctrine and how they influence the culture.

I really don't get it. The point of RP is to place yourself (I'm using the general "you" here) in the cultural context of a new and exciting world. Judge the setting for what it is, instead of projecting RL bias that really shouldn't have a place in a fantasy setting.

[Always Alice]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

this might not be word for word correct,
Alistar: the biggest threat to this city just walked out the door, i dont agree with how we treat mages,
Hawke: but isn't the circle in ferelden better,
Alistar: you would think so but no, mages are treated just the same, not that i agree,
Hawke: but your regent, surely you could just kick the templars out of ferelden and take over yourself,
Alistar: maybe, I will think about it,
 I'm not saying he hates the chantry but he would side with the mages if it xame to war and he was forced to choose sides 

Even if Alistair disagrees that doesn't necessarily mean that he'd side with them (though I personally think he would). There are more factors to consider than just his personal opinion of the matter, after all.

[MICHELLE7]

I was pro-mage back in DAO and still am...nothing I wanted more that to see the mages get their freedom...The chantry uses fear to enslave...even twisted some people's mind to the point that they thought they were evil just because they were born with magic. There is a difference in believing in a maker and using the maker as an excuse to enslave others and push your own agenda...so no I'm not a fan of the chantry.