1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkwingduck]

Negative but I have issues with organized religion in general. Praise Odin.

[Silfren]

AnoraBlows wrote...

A few things to note:

2. The Chantry is made up of humans. If you hate the Chantry, then that means you have to hate every other group in the game. Mages have blood mages and maleficarum. The Dalish have people like Zathrian (and if you read Dalish history, the Dalish elves haven't been the best of allies). Andraste, for example, helped the Dalish. It was the clergy of the Chantry that was formed after Andraste's death that reneged on the promise. Even the Dalish have respect for Andraste, although they don't believe in her divinity.
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Extremely fallacious argument there; it assumes that hatred of the Chantry has something to do with the Chantry being made up of humans--which is not entirely true, by the way.  It may have originated as a human religion, but it is absolutely made up of elves, and to a lesser extent, dwarves, as well (witness the dwarf in Orzammar who wanted to establish a Chantry there, and if he does, he gains a few converts...it stands to reason that other dwarves who lived on the surface, especially those who were born and raised topside, are also Chantry adherents, even if not in great numbers).  And of course city-dwelling elves grow up saturated with Andrastian culture just as humans do, and we see plenty of examples in-game of alienage elves who worship the Maker according to the Chantry's dictates.  This is likely the case in Tevinter as well, notwithstanding the Imperial Chantry is different in many ways from the mainstream Chantry, it is still Andrastian).

This claim that if we hate the Chantry we have to hate every other group in the game also assumes a homogenous equality across the board.  By which I mean, it assumes that people who hate the Chantry must hate it for one particular reason, and that reason requires the hater in question to apply the same reason to all other groups.  This is simply not the case.  People who don't see anything particularly wrong with blood magic or maleficarum, to use your example, for instance, aren't going to "have to" hate mages or Dalish just because they hate the Chantry.  Nor are people who are sympathetic to the Dalish specifically because they recognize the damage the Chantry has done to Dalish culture.

[dragonflight288]

I like certain members of the chantry, but I dislike the organization as a whole.

[Vakarianfan94]

The chantry attacked the elves because they would not convert to the andrastian chantry, Who's to say the qunari didn't invade thedas to launch a pre-emptive strike against the chantry before they launched an invasion against those of the qun, and as for the mages, the Qunari collar mages sure but most of them are there by choice as well as being forced to, they are born to the qun and wish to serve but the chantry enslaves the mages for fun, The qunari are idealists, Human society tears its self apart due to a high crime rate but the qun is peaceful and self respected when they invade it's because those humans/elves are so criminal as a whole that there are only 2 paths to redemption.

The qun is wonderful because it works, only a handful of qunari are opposed to it where as half the humans hate the chantry.

Modifié par Vakarianfan94, 11 avril 2012 - 11:45 .

[Always Alice]

Vakarianfan94 wrote...

The chantry attacked the elves because they would not convert to the andrastian chantry, Who's to say the qunari didn't invade thedas to launch a pre-emptive strike against the chantry before they launched an invasion against those of the qun,

Because one of the "demands" of the Qun is to convert others,iirc. It stands to reason they they would invade regardless of the current power of the Chantry.

and as for the mages, the Qunari collar mages sure but most of them are there by choice as well as being forced to, they are born to the qun and wish to serve but the chantry enslaves the mages for fun,

The Chantry does not "enslave mages for fun." The imprison mages because they are a danger to the community. Whether or not security should take precedence over freedom is a matter of personal preference that is constantly debated, but it's not like all the Grand Clerics are tying mages to railroad tracks while twirling their mustaches.

The qunari are idealists, Human society tears its self apart due to a high crime rate but the qun is peaceful and self respected when they invade it's because those humans/elves are so criminal as a whole that there are only 2 paths to redemption.

The two paths being convert or die. The reason why there is little to no crime rate in Qunari culture is because everyone has an assigned role. Whether you view this as a good thing or not is up to personal preference.

The qun is wonderful because it works, only a handful of qunari are opposed to it where as half the humans hate the chantry.

Where on earth are you getting these numbers from? What indicates that "half" of the in-game human population hates the Chantry?

[berelinde]

Always Alice wrote...

The Chantry does not "enslave mages for fun." The imprison mages because they are a danger to the community.

No, they don't imprison the mages for fun. They rape and torture the mages for fun.

[berelinde]

All it takes for evil to win is for good people to do nothing. The Chantry in itself is not evil, but by ignoring the abuses of its members, without even a token slap on the wrist, they condone it. They shelter and protect the abusers, not the mages they are supposed to be protecting. Your analogy does not apply. When teachers who molest students are discovered, odds are good that they will be charged and prosecuted for their crimes. When templars commit their atrocities, it's "Boys will be boys."

Fenris is our primary source for daily life in Tevinter, and he is hardly unbiased. He would have you believe that the entire empire is made up of magisters and slaves. He ignores the majority of the population, the shopkeepers, the soldiers, the sailors, the craftsmen, and the farmers because he wants to make a point. Most non-mages in Tevinter probably enjoy quite comfortable lives, but we'll never know that because it isn't on Fenris's agenda. The player can see first-hand how Circle mages live, however. All you need to do is walk into the Gallows and listen.

A better analogy for the Circle and their templar overseers might be a concentration camp. Inmates don't have to commit any crime. They just have to be born. The guards are free to do whatever they want, including murder, and there is no legal remedy. The director of the camp knows all about the crimes being committed against the inmates. They don't care. Should the camp be allowed to operate indefinitely just because there's a chance that an inmate, driven mad by the abuse, might harm an innocent if set free?

[GodWood]

As someone whose fervently anti-theistic in RL I actually don't have a problem with the Chantry.

Honestly, I always find a little silly when people want to play Dawkins when in a medieval setting with magic and dragons.

[Sparky2146]

I have BIG issues with organised religion in general (speaking as a former believer).

I think my bias carried through into Dragon age, considering the similarities between the chantry and religion IRL. I wont go any further as I dont want to be dragged into a big theological discussion

Suffice to say I'm not a big fan of organised religion 

[LobselVith8]

GodWood wrote...

Honestly, I always find it a little silly when people want to play Dawkins when in a medieval setting with magic and dragons.

There is atheism in Thedas, and Morrigan dismisses the idea that magic necessitates the existence of the Maker when she speaks with Leliana on the existence of a creator. The Warden can be atheist. Aveline seems to be an atheist as well. There's nothing silly about it when it's already part of the narrative.

[GodWood]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There is atheism in Thedas, and Morrigan dismisses the idea that magic necessitates the existence of the Maker when she speaks with Leliana on the existence of a creator. The Warden can be atheist. Aveline seems to be an atheist as well. There's nothing silly about it when it's already part of the narrative.

Aveline does not dismiss the existence of the maker and as far as I remember Morrigan does not dismiss the idea of their being a maker.

They could be deists for all we know.

Anyways, I never even said there was no atheists in Thedas.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 avril 2012 - 09:36 .

[Koire]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I like certain members of the chantry, but I dislike the organization as a whole.

Seconded.

PS Aveline says that after the death of Wesley she finds it hard to believe in the Maker, if I recall correctly.

Modifié par Koire, 14 avril 2012 - 09:46 .

[labargegrrrl]

saying you do or don't like the chantry like it's a black and white issue is f*ing stupid. that's like saying you do or don't like elves or do or don't like mages or...oh, wait. i just forgot what fan base i'm posting in. never mind. chantry bad. grrrrrr!

[Vakarianfan94]

Always Alice wrote...


Where on earth are you getting these numbers from? What indicates that "half" of the in-game human population hates the Chantry?

I mean you're always hearing about people opposed to the chantry every time you turn a corner, so much so that i start to wonder how it's still in-charge. 

As for mages being dangarous, how are they any more dangarous than non- mages, i see a lot of templars win fights against rebel mages, besides most mages turn evil out of fear of the templars. Every fighter is dangarous for example shale or meredith is stronger than a mage apprentice or a demon that could possess that apprentice but they're not locked up.  Mages in the circle dont want to be there but Qunari mages want to as it is a part of their culture. 

Qunari are the true rulers of the world because their government works and they must make others join before they are the only race left alive

[Sinuphro]

i hate the chantry. if i could kill the maker, i would gladly do it.

[Vakarianfan94]

While I hate the chantry I would not go as far as to kill a god, unless he directly threatened those I follow or those who follow me. The maker might actually be angry with the things the chantry has done in his name. But I agree with your statement as a whole I hate the chantry and the maker started it all.

[Dessalines]

Actually, I like the Chantry as it is used in the game. Please, do not change their outfits either.

[LobselVith8]

GodWood wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There is atheism in Thedas, and Morrigan dismisses the idea that magic necessitates the existence of the Maker when she speaks with Leliana on the existence of a creator. The Warden can be atheist. Aveline seems to be an atheist as well. There's nothing silly about it when it's already part of the narrative.

Aveline does not dismiss the existence of the maker and as far as I remember Morrigan does not dismiss the idea of their being a maker.

They could be deists for all we know.

Anyways, I never even said there was no atheists in Thedas.

 

You seem to be forgetting Aveline's conversation with Hawke about Wesley and the Maker, but getting back to the issue at hand, you originally stated you didn't understand why people would want to be like Dawkins (an atheist) in Thedas because of the existance of magic, when Morrigan dismisses the idea that there is a Maker in her discussion with Leliana when she explicitly states:

Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?
Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.
Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wondrous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.
Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.
Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?
Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.
Leliana: I don't believe that. I believe we have a purpose. All of us.
Morrigan: Yours, apparently being to bother me.

Simply because magic exists in Thedas, doesn't mean that people have to believe in the existance of the Maker, or even a creator.

[Vakarianfan94]

I used to support the mages but now stand with the circle and the chhantry

Modifié par Vakarianfan94, 10 juin 2012 - 12:43 .