1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

My Human noble rogue paid lip service to the chantry. He grew up with a chapel in his house and got along well enough with the mother who ran it. But he's not what I'd call overly religious.

My City Elf Warrior Bride took her relationship to the maker more seriously. The Chantry performed her wedding and were one of the few who treated her like a 'human being' during her origin. Both Andraste and her mother showed her about standing up for herself and taking no crap from anyone.

My female Mage had her life ruled by the Chantry so had less reason to like them. But clearly, based on her interactions with Cullen and Alistair, had something of a thing for men in Templar skirts.

One has to wonder if those Templar skirts are "easy-access".

[moilami]

Erani wrote...

I don't hate the Chantry, but their self-righteous and intolerant attitude towards elves and mages is just plain wrong. I dislike the Chantry a lot, and also dislike how they control Templars by exploiting their lyrium addition. I believe in the "Maker" and overall the religious lore in the game is pretty interesting, but I don't think the Chantry should be all-powerful. To me, they self-nominated to be divine enforcers. The Maker has left and so the Chantry has no authority to speak in "his" name.

Very well said. Like in real life, Chantry should not have political power. Let them help those who need/want their stuff but don't let them enforce their beliefs towards people.

[Riknas]

Y'know, it's worth mentioning that of the "Exalted Marches", the Chantry did lead several to stop the Qunari from overthrowing the rest of Thedas.

[Elhanan]

AlexXIV wrote...

Oghren and Shale dislike the Chantry because they are dwarfs. Wynne because she is a mage. Which doesn't really leave anyone who wholeheartly embraces the Chantry.

I believe that Wynne likes the Chantry, though not all of it. She believes in the Maker, but does not let the Chantry dictate her life.

[Augustei]

AlexXIV wrote...

Bad King wrote...

A lot of your squad mates in game dislike the Chantry.

Alistair dislikes them mainly because of their power over the Templars (they control them by 'addicting' them to lyrium).

Leliana doesn't like their arrogance and their pessimistic view that the Maker has turned his back on creation (she claims that the Chantry wants to feel special).

Morrigan is apostate and has been hunted often by the chantry, so naturally she dislikes them.

Sten is Qunari and Qunari tend not to like the Chantry (especially after their marches against the Qunari).

I personally dislike them for what they did to the Dales. Regardless of who attacked first, the Chantry bred religious intolerance amongst the human armies and sacked and destroyed the elven cities. Pretty barbaric.

Oghren and Shale dislike the Chantry because they are dwarfs. Wynne because she is a mage. Which doesn't really leave anyone who wholeheartly embraces the Chantry.

No Wynne likes the chantry.. And Just because someone is a mage doesn't mean they hate the chantry.. Havn't you heard of the Loyalist Fraternity?

And Oghren and Shale dont dislike the chantry.. The don't really have an opinion at all.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 01 février 2011 - 03:57 .

[AlexXIV]

Elhanan wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Oghren and Shale dislike the Chantry because they are dwarfs. Wynne because she is a mage. Which doesn't really leave anyone who wholeheartly embraces the Chantry.

I believe that Wynne likes the Chantry, though not all of it. She believes in the Maker, but does not let the Chantry dictate her life.

Yeah well that's what I meant. She isn't really supportive of everything the Chantry is about though.

[Eveangaline]

Honestly, I don't like the chantry because the're a religion that calls for converting others. Any religion that tries to dictate more than what it's own followers do is a bad one in my opinion. If they would stop trying to apply their rules to people who aren't members of the chantry, I'd be ok with them.

[moilami]

Trintrin86 wrote...

Count me in as someone who thinks it's silly to unilaterally dismiss a fictional religion in a fantasy setting as "bad" because a player has a real life dislike of real religions.

Count me in as someone who does not see any reason to accept chantry's crimes just because there are religions in real life.

[blothulfur]

Personally i'm not bothered by real world religions many sins, child abuse, inquisitions, crusades or scientific repression etc because none of that happened to me but the central idea of christianity and other teachings that if you are a good boy and do what you're told in the good book then you will be rewarded seems kind of childish and not particularly moral.

Shouldn't you be doing these things because they are right and not to selfishly advance yourself into heaven, I mean an atheist who is a saintly individual and always acts in a good and moral manner commiting no sins will still burn in eternal hellfire for his transgressions while an evil inveterate sinner who believes merely has to say forgive me at the end and hes got an eternity on easy street.

Then again stick these things in thedas and I love the moral and social quandries they produce so more chantry in dragon age for the win.

Until the Qun conquers all.

[AlexXIV]

blothulfur wrote...

Personally i'm not bothered by real world religions many sins, child abuse, inquisitions, crusades or scientific repression etc because none of that happened to me but the central idea of christianity and other teachings that if you are a good boy and do what you're told in the good book then you will be rewarded seems kind of childish and not particularly moral.
Shouldn't you be doing these things because they are right and not to selfishly advance yourself into heaven, I mean an atheist who is a saintly individual and always acts in a good and moral manner commiting no sins will still burn in eternal hellfire for his transgressions while an evil inveterate sinner who believes merely has to say forgive me at the end and hes got an eternity on easy street.
Then again stick these things in thedas and I love the moral and social quandries they produce so more chantry in dragon age for the win.
Until the Qun conquers all.

Well people like rewards. That's why they get told they will be rewarded. I don't find it especially childish, but at least a questionable motivation to do good things.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 février 2011 - 04:17 .

[Augustei]

pfft, the qun will never conquer all

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 01 février 2011 - 04:25 .

[Celtic Latino]

I don't like or dislike the Chantry. You have to admit though, it is portrayed in a very negative light, with the oppression of mages, it's bloody history (exalted march), and with so many similarities to the Catholic Church and some of its own history (Inquisition, Crusades), people of course are going to dislike the Chantry. Plus, its rather popular to be anti-religion these days...so it's also the join the club feel.



I hope that the Chantry and Templars are portrayed with another side in DA2 that doesn't make them seem so insidious and fear controlled. I like what they did in Orzammar with Brother Burkel's quest, taking in the homeless and branded, giving a good side to the Chantry (and religion). I'd like to see more of that in DA2 and future DA games, just to see the other side.

[moilami]

blothulfur wrote...
Shouldn't you be doing these things because they are right and not to selfishly advance yourself into heaven, I mean

I do because I can, and that is confirmed after I have done it.

[moilami]

Celtic Latino wrote...

I don't like or dislike the Chantry. You have to admit though, it is portrayed in a very negative light, with the oppression of mages, it's bloody history (exalted march), and with so many similarities to the Catholic Church and some of its own history (Inquisition, Crusades), people of course are going to dislike the Chantry. Plus, its rather popular to be anti-religion these days...so it's also the join the club feel.

I hope that the Chantry and Templars are portrayed with another side in DA2 that doesn't make them seem so insidious and fear controlled. I like what they did in Orzammar with Brother Burkel's quest, taking in the homeless and branded, giving a good side to the Chantry (and religion). I'd like to see more of that in DA2 and future DA games, just to see the other side.

I think it is not easy to make a religious organization in fantasy RPG without it having some similarities to real life religious organizations?


Edit: HOWTO make chantry different. Put them in isolated island with cult status. Would help people also see many things what is wrong.

Modifié par moilami, 01 février 2011 - 04:33 .

[Steingrimur Steingrimsson]

Well, it's a lose - lose situation. Religious people do not necessarily like other religions and atheists and agnostics do not believe in any religion, so it is understandable that most people cannot relate to the Chantry at all.

[Solduri]

Celtic Latino wrote...

I don't like or dislike the Chantry. You have to admit though, it is portrayed in a very negative light, with the oppression of mages, it's bloody history (exalted march), and with so many similarities to the Catholic Church and some of its own history (Inquisition, Crusades), people of course are going to dislike the Chantry. Plus, its rather popular to be anti-religion these days...so it's also the join the club feel.

I hope that the Chantry and Templars are portrayed with another side in DA2 that doesn't make them seem so insidious and fear controlled. I like what they did in Orzammar with Brother Burkel's quest, taking in the homeless and branded, giving a good side to the Chantry (and religion). I'd like to see more of that in DA2 and future DA games, just to see the other side.

i think if anything it would represent the medieval catholic church which was pretty oppressive all around

[lnicol1900]

Mlaar wrote...

none of their religions have any outspoken presence in game at the moment for you have spent so little time within thier borders, Fereldens predominent faith is in the Maker so it stands to reason it will be as you say "in your face" if the original game was based in Qunari lands you would turn against the Qun for some extent. I agree with your sentiments about having faith pushed into your face as I believe its one of the biggest turn offs towards faith.

I'll admit it's a definite possiblity that, given different settings, I'd dislike one of the other religions if they had a louder presence in the game. I'd probably back away from the Qun, since that is like the Chantry in that it wants to convert all to "enlightenment", whereas the dwarves and Dalish tended to be quieter in that regard, although I guess the Dalish have good reason.

In game I found the chantry shown very well with smaller outlying villages having a small parish where the religous leader was well thought about by the community it came across that these areas the populace would worship the maker because 1. it was the only religion they knew and 2. the chantry were more likely to pitch in and help out around the village, I would have liked to have seen more of the chantry involvment in the big city as this is where church politics would play out the preachers I tend to believe would have less of the personal touch with thier flock and more power play would be involved sounds like da2 will touch on this so I look forward to the corruption behind the scenes (I hope)

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and I agree. One of the wonderful things about the game was that it showed so many different faces of the Chantry, like you said. You have the village Chantry, which is out the way and almost free of any greater corruption (at least in my opinion), and then you have the mainstream Chantry that has all the problems and such.

The Chantry, as a religion, is a pretty good thing. But then the Chantry, as a political power, abuses its power so much certain ways. Yes, mages can be dangerous and some magic should be banned, but me, their way of dealing with that is practically undermining a mage's confidence and almost making them more dangerous.

And the elves, they chose to practise their own religion and didn't want to be part of the Chantry, so an Exalted March was thrown at them (at least that's one version of history, and for some reason I think it's most likely). The elves then become second class citizens. I'm sure that's a direct violation of what's written in the Chant of Light.

And yes, the political power and corruption of the Chantry in DA2 will be very interesting to see. I think the ruler of Kirkwall only has that power because of the Chantry's support, so that'll be an interesting dynamic.

On the whole I think the devs have created a believable religion so all credit to them as for personal feelings on religion well lets just say I agree its a good thing as belief is a powerful motivator it matters not who you worship for no religion is entirly right or wrong just that it can give you inspiration to become all that you can be.

It is a very believable religion, and the devs should be praised for it. And I agree with you on belief being a powerful motivator, regardless of religion. People can do some pretty impressive stuff based on just faith alone.

[Major Crackhead]

My characters generally have a love/hate relationship with the Chantry. My first character (A Human Noble) was basically an atheist but had some respect for the Chantry and helped them out when help was needed.



My Mage character was also this way, but she also resorted to taking pot-shots at the Chantry whenever she had the chance, due to being something of a rebellious Mage.



So I tried something different with my third character (the character that is now my dp). Her name is Paula and she is a City Elf who has a somewhat insane obsession with the Chantry (to put it lightly). Basically very Lawful Neutral, she will deal with things the way the Chantry would want it, and she hates mages with a passion. She also sided with the Werewolves simply to slay the Dalish "heathens".



Roleplaying a fanatic is pretty damn fun, I'd recommend it for anyone who hasn't done it yet.

[Ser Mix-a-lot]

lnicol1900 wrote...



It is a very believable religion, and the devs should be praised for it. And I agree with you on belief being a powerful motivator, regardless of religion. People can do some pretty impressive stuff based on just faith alone.

People believe what they want to believe... like the Dragon Age 2 demo.

[Crimea River]

^ made me think of

Warden: "I'm not sure what to believe."
Flemeth: "A statement that possesses more wisdom than it implies. 'Be always aware.' Or is it 'oblivious?' I can never remember."


If I were a human in-game, in fact, knowledgeable or not, I would at least respect them.  I've pondered this often, wondering what my life would have been like if I lived in the Dragon Age, and the events of it sort of "paralleled."  I won't go into detail with my life as it has nothing to do with Dragon Age.

If I was in the Dragon Age universe, my parents would have been the same.  They'd be trying to shape me into their "perfect child."  They'd take away all my toys, and I'd have a decision to face:  a childhood of mental torment and resorting to thievery and deviance or I'd actually do something to get away.  To escape those people.  And the Chantry would be the best option.  I would beg them to let me become a part of the Chantry, to let me get away from those horrible parents, and likely, they'd let me in.  If they got my parents arrested or something, I wouldn't know and I wouldn't care -- I'd just be happy to be away from them, and I would take solace in the Andrastian faith.  I would likely train to become a templar.  I would learn what evils there were in the world -- blood magic, demons, darkspawn, etc. -- and I would be happy to be protecting the world from these things.

The treatment of mages is understandable, though I'd feel that they don't deserve to be treated harshly.  I'd feel that it's necessary for them all to be taken to the Circle, and for them to lose all titles and inheritances.  Such would be a fact of life.  Because power is a powerful driving force in people, and a mage in a position of power might become greedy for more just as a non-magic person would.  The difference is, the mage would resort to blood magic, most likely, to influence the minds of others.  And any mage -- trained or not -- not under constant watch by templars or at the Circle is a risk to the nation, and to him- or herself.  For every time they tap into the Fade, demons are attracted and will seek to possess them.  (What annoys me -- not the in-world me, mind you -- about Abominations in the game is that all Abominations can do (other than Uldred and the Baroness and Conner) are Rage and Triple Strike.  No magical abilities.  ._.  It doesn't make them as powerful as they were described elsewhere).  And as much as I'd be protecting the people from the mages' curse, I'd also be protecting the mages from the local populace.  (This considering I'm a tower templar or something like that).

Anyway, I wouldn't hate mages for being what they are.  I'd hate magic itself.  I'd view it as a curse.  I'd be grateful I had no magic, and if I did have magic, I'd probably beg the templars to kill me.  Magic is powerful and dangerous and not something I'd really want to mess with, especially fire.  :/  I'd find the Chantry's need to convert EVERYONE to be a stupid misinterpretation of the Chant of Light.  Surely, Andraste (and the Maker) could have known that not all would be accepting of the Chant.  Not the elves or the Chasind/Avvars/other tribes who had their own pantheon.  Not the Qunari with their Qun.  And not the dwarves with their ancestors.  No, I'd probably interpret it as that the Chantry should spread the Chant of Light, but leave it up to the people to decide what their faith shall be.  As long as they didn't worship demons or something like that and didn't harm people for the sake of their religion or wildly tried to force other people to convert to their religion -- ironic, isn't that? -- I wouldn't care who they worshipped.  The Qunari are like the latter in that first sentence, but what could I do about the Qunari, after all?  Not like any of it would be my business.  I would be a single templar, and if I asserted these things I'd either get the switch or be hanged as a heretic.  :/  Thus I'd keep my mouth shut.

For the above reason, I'd be disgusted with what they Chantry did to the elves.  But I wouldn't hate the Chantry.  In fact, I'd be serving it, but not acting cruel towards "pagans" and mages unless they warranted a reason.  And some of the Chantry's ways or deeds, I'd hate, just not the Chantry itself.

Out-of-character, I find the Chantry and its ways to be fascinating.  I don't really hate anything in the Dragon Age universe.  It's all fascinating, and runs together interestingly.  I also have a fascination with templars.  Greagoir, Ser Bryant, Ser Otto, and others are awesome.  I wish that BioWare would publish the full Chant of Light.  I'd love to actually read it; it'd help in writing some of my characters.  The same with the Qun, I'd be so interested in seeing both of these religious scriptures.

[AlexXIV]

Well religion should come from the heart and not from someone pointing the sharp end of a sword at you. So any oppressive or even only missionary religion will be regarded as a threat by some. After all, according to the bible, Jesus never went out 'converting' people. People came to him to hear him. I tend to think that christianity was a good concept to begin with but really got screwed when people discovered the potential to use it to gain political power.

Most religions get connected to political power eventually, since, if you spread any sort of ideology it eventually becomes more powerful and power has a tendency to corrupt people. I think the biggest flaw of religions is to assume that a mortal being (or a group) can properly represent a god. That some humans can be unfailable. Humans are not supposed to be unfailable and never were and never will be.

I hope one day all people will realize that playing god is always a bad idea. If you ain't god, you shouldn't act as if you were.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 février 2011 - 05:02 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Irkalla wrote...


i hate all organized religion, I don't need any other reason to hate it.

Have fun being unorganized then. Look at the UK.

Anyway, I like the Chantry. They don't seem bad. They've put up chanter's boards where they will reward you for helping other people.

That little kid in Lothering: "My father fixed the roof of some guy's house and the Chanter rewarded him."

Also, in the City Elf origin, it was the Rev who told those nobles to leave. Also, in Awakening, you hear of a Templar going to a farm and helping the people there every now and then. 

The chantry is actually a very charitable place (like their real life counter parts) helping the poor and tending to refugees who have no where else to go. If that's bad then what's good?

Regardless of if you believe the Chantry or don't, you've got to admit that they aren't evil or bad and have done many good deeds. Just because they say all unbelievers won't return to The Maker - does that make them bad when they are doing charitable works?

Villager: Thanks for fixing my roof for free.
Maker's Witness: No problem. I did it for The Maker.
Villager: WHAT!? YOU BELIEVE IN THE MAKER! YOU'RE EVIL! *Shoves Maker's Witness out of house*
Maker's Witness: Wait, please take this go--*door slams shut*--ld...

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 01 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[AlexXIV]

Crimea River wrote...

^ made me think of

Warden: "I'm not sure what to believe."
Flemeth: "A statement that possesses more wisdom than it implies. 'Be always aware.' Or is it 'oblivious?' I can never remember."

Flemeth has some of the best Quotes. I also like 'You are required to do nothing, least of all believe.'

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 février 2011 - 05:18 .

[moilami]

lnicol1900 wrote...



The Chantry, as a religion, is a pretty good thing. But then the Chantry, as a political power, abuses its power so much certain ways. Yes, mages can be dangerous and some magic should be banned, but me, their way of dealing with that is practically undermining a mage's confidence and almost making them more dangerous.

Mages are not more dangerous than rogues or warriors. Rogues can be extremely dangerous. Well trained rogue (hide four ranks) could kill possibly hundreds of people and not ever get caught of it, if he wanted. Two naked warriors armed with axes can storm a church, one guarding the doorway and one chasing people, killing everyone inside and possibly escaping afterwards to do more storming later.

And all that mind control is just broken crap. If mages could mind control so good they would destroy the chantry and circle and whatever they want. You would not ever be safe of them as long as there would be mages. It is chantry who controls minds by using propaganda (and possibly lyrium) instead of magic.



Edit: It is a question of will. What a person wants to do. Don't fall in chantry propaganda. Mages in general don't want to cause mass destruction like rogues don't want to, even though they can. Being able to do something doesn't mean you would do it. Or do you say you could not use machine gun and slay tens of people? You could, but you don't want to do it. The same goes with mages.

Modifié par moilami, 01 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Legbiter]

My human noble certainly did.