1019 réponses à ce sujet

[Luzeka]

Not really if we can murder everyone of the chantry in DA2 then i would do it.

[Riona45]

moilami wrote...
Not going to check what that word means, possibly something like religious...

No, not necessarily.

[the_one_54321]

Archereon wrote...
Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

No. Well, not exactly. In real life I'd be very much against what the Chantry does because in real life there are no mages that can summon demons from the fade and use blood magic to control people's minds. In real life when religious groups say "all of [Group A] are dangerous because they [action B]," it's a load of ignorant hateful garbage. In Ferelden when the Chantry says "mages pose a danger that is not found in other people," this claim is plainly verifiable.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 01 février 2011 - 09:01 .

[Dr. wonderful]

Actually, I hate the Chantry, because they enforce their beliefs on my Elf.





...



Which I find ironic, since a) I'm Catholic and My warden romance'd (Unharded) Leliana.

[AlexXIV]

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

Mind you not everyone who is catholic does have to like the Chantry. The Chantry is a made up fantasy religion and while there may be similarities, Chantry and Catholicism isn't identical. Also the Chantry would rather be based on a medivial catholic church which isn't quite the same as the modern one.

[Morning808]

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

I'm just not religous. Never gave it tought never really cared but in DA universe I don't like the Chantry all that much since they are false hope but I still help them every now and then...but it'll still be fun to watch one burn like in DA:O

[Falls Edge]

I like and dislike the chantry, I like the templars, because their armor is cool.

But they clearly wanted us to dislike the chantry, a lot of red flags point to large religious icons being mages with way too much power instead of prophets or saints sent from the maker.

Theres also a bit of disconnect you never really get 'to know' the people in the chantrys you visit, the conversations were never much beyond "I perform this function for the chantry, could you get this item for me?" or "I'm a traveler using the kindness of this religious place as a convenient inn, could you find this for me?

The chantry is largely challenged by other characters in the game through small religious debates or some of them saying ridiculous things, sometimes they even intentionally hinder you because of 'ridiculous' beliefs that don't allow you to save lives with having to persaude certain people, I understand that they wanted to show the negative aspects of religion but it seemed the positive aspects of being in the chantry was: Lyrium, cool armor, a place to stay, faith, and an objective morality to help you sleep at night, with a lot more being said against it then for it.

Edit: For clarification I wasn't talking about real life when I was talking about the religious icons being mages thing, purely in game.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 01 février 2011 - 09:02 .

[moilami]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Archereon wrote...
Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

No. Well, not exactly. In real life I'd be very much against what the Chantry does because in real life there are no mages that can summon demons from the fade and use blood magic to control people's minds. In real life when religious groups say "all of [Group A] are dangerous because they [action B]," it's a load of ignorant hateful garbage. In Ferelden when the Chantry says "mages pose a danger not is not found in other people," this claim is plainly verifiable.

I don't care what nonsense crap chantry say, even though I would very much prefer they don't say a word of their sick crap to kids, and therefore chantry crap would be best classified as mature content not suitable for children. Kids are especially vulnerable to believe all kind of lies and horror stories and as such are very vulnerable to the brainwashing chantry cultists are doing.

You can believe in their crap as much as you want, and you are free to do, but please don't corrupt kids with your total nonsense about mages you believe like some kind of lyrium addicted drooling maniac.

[Archereon]

AlexXIV wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

Mind you not everyone who is catholic does have to like the Chantry. The Chantry is a made up fantasy religion and while there may be similarities, Chantry and Catholicism isn't identical. Also the Chantry would rather be based on a medivial catholic church which isn't quite the same as the modern one.

Not everyone, but in this thread alone, most of the people who stated their religious beliefs in real life had an opinion on the Chantry that mirrored those beliefs. 

[Morning808]

Archereon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

Mind you not everyone who is catholic does have to like the Chantry. The Chantry is a made up fantasy religion and while there may be similarities, Chantry and Catholicism isn't identical. Also the Chantry would rather be based on a medivial catholic church which isn't quite the same as the modern one.

Not everyone, but in this thread alone, most of the people who stated their religious beliefs in real life had an opinion on the Chantry that mirrored those beliefs. 

Because the Chantry is just a copy of the real life Church

[Falls Edge]

[/quote]
Not everyone, but in this thread alone, most of the people who stated their religious beliefs in real life had an opinion on the Chantry that mirrored those beliefs. 
[/quote]Because the Chantry is just a copy of the real life Church


Except the character writing is worse.

Modifié par Falls Edge, 01 février 2011 - 09:03 .

[the_one_54321]

Falls Edge wrote...
Theres also a bit of disconnect you never really get 'to know' the people in the chantrys you visit, the conversations were never much beyond "I perform this function for the chantry, could you get this item for me?" or "I'm a traveler using the kindness of this religious place as a convenient inn, could you find this for me?

The chantry is largely challenged by other characters in the game through small religious debates or some of them saying ridiculous things, sometimes they even intentionally hinder you because of 'ridiculous' beliefs that don't allow you to save lives with having to persaude certain people, I understand that they wanted to show the negative aspects of religion but it seemed the positive aspects of being in the chantry was: Lyrium, cool armor, a place to stay, faith, and an objective morality to help you sleep at night, with a lot more being said against it then for it.

You bring up a lot of good points. We're not given very much reason to like the Chantry. In fact, all but the human noble origin start the character off with some very specific, often deep seated reasons to personally dislike the Chantry.

moilami wrote...
...

What in the heck are you talking about? 

Morning808 wrote...
Because the Chantry is just a copy of the real life Church

Um, no. Not even remotely. The only similarities are entirely visual, like the reverence of a masiah figure. The only functional similarity is the evangelism.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 01 février 2011 - 09:05 .

[AlexXIV]

Morning808 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

Mind you not everyone who is catholic does have to like the Chantry. The Chantry is a made up fantasy religion and while there may be similarities, Chantry and Catholicism isn't identical. Also the Chantry would rather be based on a medivial catholic church which isn't quite the same as the modern one.

Not everyone, but in this thread alone, most of the people who stated their religious beliefs in real life had an opinion on the Chantry that mirrored those beliefs. 

Because the Chantry is just a copy of the real life Church

I don't remember the Chantry's view on, for example, homosexuality or sex before marriage. I know the Catholic Church's though. Neither do I remember the Catholic Church's stance on mages. Saying they are a copy is just really a simplification.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 février 2011 - 09:07 .

[Archereon]

Morning808 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

Mind you not everyone who is catholic does have to like the Chantry. The Chantry is a made up fantasy religion and while there may be similarities, Chantry and Catholicism isn't identical. Also the Chantry would rather be based on a medivial catholic church which isn't quite the same as the modern one.

Not everyone, but in this thread alone, most of the people who stated their religious beliefs in real life had an opinion on the Chantry that mirrored those beliefs. 

Because the Chantry is just a copy of the real life Church

No, but its similar enough that a lot of people are projecting their beliefs of the real Church onto it.  Plus there's the fact that saying horrible things about a "fake" religion, even if it is a thinly disguised copy of a real one, is a lot more acceptable than saying those things about a real religion with a lot of public support.


Alex XIV: I think he was being sarcastic.

Modifié par Archereon, 01 février 2011 - 09:07 .

[Trintrin86]

Erani wrote...

Trintrin86 wrote...

But I can't think of a single in game instance where the Chantry as a whole shows a bias against elves simply for being elves. The priestess in the city elf orgin seems more than happy to preside over the wedding. The Grand Cleric is outraged on behalf of the city elves in the Landsmeet if you mention that Loghain is selling them into slavery. The subjegation of the elves is cultural on a level far beyond the Chantry.

I'm sorry but just because the priestess in the CE origin agrees to have the wedding doesn't mean the Chantry is tolerant/accepting or sees elves as[b] equals. Sure, they want the city elves to have "Maker certified" weddings, as they see this as an indication of the elves accepting their ways (Chantry wedding vs elf non-chantry wedding).
The Chantry seems to have no problem with the elves "living" like diseased dogs in the alienages though, in complete poverty and still subservient to humans.
How come the Denerim Chantry didn't come to the city elf and her/his companion's help when they were abducted/raped? They could've sent their Templars, but didn't. Nobility is not above the Chantry so they could've done something about it.
Also, the Grand Cleric gets pissed off at Loghain during the Landsmeet because of Jowan, not the slavery thing.

So yeah, nothing morally ambiguous about that.
The mages situation I'm not even gonna get into, as there about 100 threads about it.

The Chantry doesn't help every pauper on the street either. That doesn't mean they don't care about the poor. The issue of the elven alienages is much larger social issue that the Chantry no doubt play a historical part in but even if the Grand Cleric were to decree that the Maker decrees all living creatures equal it wouldn't solve the problem. All of the races have certain biases against each other, the Dailish would shoot a Human as soon as look at them, does that make the Dalish unilaterally evil?

You're right about the Grand Cleric, I misremembered. But that kind of ties into your question of "Why didn't the Chantry send in the Templars to help the elves during the wedding?" Ignoring the "it had to happen for story reasons," just as Loghain had no right to meddle in Chantry matters, it's very possible that converse is true, that the Chantry has no right to meddle in civil matters. You've got two militerized forces trying to co-exist , their has to be some sort of juristicion established. Anyone could have run to try to get the city guard, any maybe they did, heck maybe the priestess did, and maybe the guard laughed in their faces. And nobility seems to have some authority over the Chantry, at least King/Queen does, as evidenced by the "loosening the restrictions" boon and Alistair/Anora overriding the Templars to affirm the Right of Conscription is Awakening.

My sense was that the modern Chantry *as an organization* is rather nuetral on the subject of elves being elves as long as they accept the Maker. They don't go out of their way to help them, but they don't go out of their way to subjugate them or keep them downtrodden either. The subjugation of the elves began long before the Chantry even existed. Could they do more, sure. But the member of the Chantry are only Human (or Elven, and in at least one case Dwarven) and instiutioonalized prejudice can be difficult to overcome, even Leliana end up revealing her unconcious prejudices, and she's one of the good guys.

And I agree with you on the mage thing

Modifié par Trintrin86, 01 février 2011 - 09:10 .

[AlexXIV]

Archereon wrote...
Alex XIV: I think he was being sarcastic.

Ohw my bad then.

[Bad King]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Burayan_Koga wrote...

From what I've seen of them, they have done more harm than good.

How?
Apart from restricting the rights of the mages, What harm have they done? The Treatment of Elves currently is not their problem, it is the problem of the Monarchs and leaders of each of the nations.
The dales incident cannot be claimed to be wrong on their part nor wrong on the dales part. Lack of Evidence and nothing but Bias accounts means it cannot count.

And The good they have done? Maintained Order and general peace across the lands, Unified the lands against Mass Invasions of the Qunari, Taken care of dangerous maleficar and demons so they do not harm the innocent.
Organising charities to help out the poor, sick, needy.
Provided Occupations and many jobs for the people of thedas
Inspired Faith in many a people.
Organised a system so that people are able to request assistance and have it displayed publically so that they are likely to get help.

Excluding the Mistreatment of mages which Imo is over-exaggerated. And the slaying of "malefiar" when they could have been apostates is the only real harm they commit

There is evidence to show that the elves were wronged in the Dales incident- where are the elven cities? Sacked and destroyed by the chantry. Also they control the Templars by addicting them to lyrium.

And they hurt by feelings by calling me a heathen.

[Meltemph]

The concept itself I have no problem with, but with any organization with a lot of followers and money flowing through it, it is very prone to corruption. The teachings themselves(that deal exclusively with the maker) seem fine and great, but Andraste seems to hurt the Chantry more then it helps them to the point of not focusing on the Maker much at all and almost exclusively Andraste.


Edit:  At least the Ferelden Sect.

Modifié par Meltemph, 01 février 2011 - 09:22 .

[the_one_54321]

Bad King wrote...
There is evidence to show that the elves were wronged in the Dales incident- where are the elven cities? Sacked and destroyed by the chantry. Also they control the Templars by addicting them to lyrium.

And they hurt by feelings by calling me a heathen.

Very true, but all in the past. Not that it should be forgotten, but it's not fair to weigh that against the good that the Chantry is managing to do in the present. Well, except for the control of the Templars. That bit is certainly rather underhanded.

Also you probably deserved to be called a heathen.

[Bad King]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Bad King wrote...
There is evidence to show that the elves were wronged in the Dales incident- where are the elven cities? Sacked and destroyed by the chantry. Also they control the Templars by addicting them to lyrium.

And they hurt by feelings by calling me a heathen.

Also you probably deserved to be called a heathen.

Yeah well I did pretty much say Paragons>The Maker to the priestess.

[AlexXIV]

Bad King wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Bad King wrote...
There is evidence to show that the elves were wronged in the Dales incident- where are the elven cities? Sacked and destroyed by the chantry. Also they control the Templars by addicting them to lyrium.

And they hurt by feelings by calling me a heathen.

Also you probably deserved to be called a heathen.

Yeah well I did pretty much say Paragons>The Maker to the priestess.

Especially if you are the new Paragon

[Heimdall]

Well my main (personal canon) character is an elf mage and he doesn't actually hate them. He thinks they are well intentioned and even go in the right direction, he just thinks they go farther than is necessary in regards to mages. Nothing a little reform can't fix.

He doesn't feel much towards the elves, he hardly considers himself at all related to the elves of Arlathan.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 01 février 2011 - 09:27 .

[Morning808]

Archereon wrote...

Morning808 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

As an atheist, I think the world would be better off without the Chantry, but I have to say that they are rather progressive compared to their real-life equivelant.  At least they have an actual reason for their witch hunts for one.

Mind you not everyone who is catholic does have to like the Chantry. The Chantry is a made up fantasy religion and while there may be similarities, Chantry and Catholicism isn't identical. Also the Chantry would rather be based on a medivial catholic church which isn't quite the same as the modern one.

Not everyone, but in this thread alone, most of the people who stated their religious beliefs in real life had an opinion on the Chantry that mirrored those beliefs. 

Because the Chantry is just a copy of the real life Church

No, but its similar enough that a lot of people are projecting their beliefs of the real Church onto it.  Plus there's the fact that saying horrible things about a "fake" religion, even if it is a thinly disguised copy of a real one, is a lot more acceptable than saying those things about a real religion with a lot of public support.


Alex XIV: I think he was being sarcastic.

Well I do hate religion (Which is why I don't care for any of it) but I won't trash them since that wouldn't be right (as long as they don't try to convert me, if so then its on) but ya if someone ever trys to trash talk a religon they might end up getting killed by the public instead of getting support by them

[moilami]

the_one_54321 wrote...

moilami wrote...
...

What in the heck are you talking about? 

I just said my rogue would very much prefer to kill you if he would find you talking to kids that sick chantry mage crap. My rogue would not like seeing you corrupting kids. But on the other hand, since you are just another brainwashed victim of cultist chantry I would just come ridiculate you and make the kids understand it was just some crazy man.

[Riona45]

Trintrin86 wrote...
The Chantry doesn't help every pauper on the street either. That doesn't mean they don't care about the poor. The issue of the elven alienages is much larger social issue that the Chantry no doubt play a historical part in but even if the Grand Cleric were to decree that the Maker decrees all living creatures equal it wouldn't solve the problem.

 
The point, which you seem to be missing, is that the Chantry has the power to do more, but chooses not to (which you seem to agree with, as you used the qualifier "even if they did decree that all races were equal").  Everyone seems to agree that the current Chantry wields tremendous influence in Thedas, so their role in how the elves get treated has to more than merely historical.

All of the races have certain biases against each other, the Dailish would shoot a Human as soon as look at them, does that make the Dalish unilaterally evil?

This is false equivalence.  The Dalish are the ones who have to be on the run from humans (partially because templars hunt their Keepers), so you can't blame them for not trusting humans.  Meanwhile, the elves that live in the city are completely at the mercy of humans, with horrible results.

Modifié par Riona45, 01 février 2011 - 09:49 .