1019 réponses à ce sujet

[panamakira]

Not in the game. Not that I would like the Templars that existed in real life either. Just any kind of organizations that looks to oppress a particular group of people does not sit well with me.

I do however have no problem with their religion, whether people in Thedas believe in the Maker and Andraste. There's nothing wrong with that, and although I've only played Mage once, I never liked the chantry or Templar since I first played the game. Paranoid oppressing organization they are. Not really fond of fanaticism in such an unhealthy way. I mean I hated the Circle. It would've been cool if it were an academy that Mages could come in and out or dorm but not the jail it was.

My opinion though~ I know they had "some" reasons for such treatments against Mages if any but I still found it ridiculous and felt bad for the Mages.

Modifié par panamakira, 01 février 2011 - 09:55 .

[the_one_54321]

panamakira wrote...
My opinion though~ I know they had "some" reasons for such treatments against Mages if any but I still found it ridiculous and felt bad for the Mages.

You  know, I also felt bad for the mages when hearing them talk about it. Like Anders and Wynne. But I also couldn't help but think "but you do pose a real verfiable threat to people." It's a tough situation generated there because they are dangerous but they are still people. I think the concept presented here was very well written.

[moilami]

the_one_54321 wrote...

panamakira wrote...
My opinion though~ I know they had "some" reasons for such treatments against Mages if any but I still found it ridiculous and felt bad for the Mages.

You  know, I also felt bad for the mages when hearing them talk about it. Like Anders and Wynne. But I also couldn't help but think "but you do pose a real verfiable threat to people." It's a tough situation generated there because they are dangerous but they are still people. I think the concept presented here was very well written.

Everyone is dangerous. You are freaking dangerous nanomage able to load your car with firearms and go somewhere where people gather and start shooting. Or you don't even need weapons for it. You could just take a SUV and drive over people. Why you don't do it? Why you say mages would do it? Why you are super human and mages animals?

[Archereon]

Moilami: A person with combat training is considered more of a threat than a person without any combat training...For good reason. I imagine the same would apply to a person with superhuman abilities that can be used to harm someone.

[moilami]

Archereon wrote...

Moilami: A person with combat training is considered more of a threat than a person without any combat training...For good reason. I imagine the same would apply to a person with superhuman abilities that can be used to harm someone.

So, lets put all soldiers to a tower? And all warriors and especially rogues with stealth rank 4? Or lets give people a chance and punish them only after a crime has been committed?

Modifié par moilami, 01 février 2011 - 10:08 .

[Morrigans God son]

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

[the_one_54321]

moilami wrote...

Archereon wrote...
Moilami: A person with combat training is considered more of a threat than a person without any combat training...For good reason. I imagine the same would apply to a person with superhuman abilities that can be used to harm someone.

So, lets put all soldiers to a tower? And all warriors and especially rogues with stealth rank 4? Or lets give people a chance and punish them only after a crime has been committed?

The difference there is that someone with combat training has been trained. Someone with magical ability is dangerous even without any training. In fact, without training someone with magical ability is even more dangerous since they cannot really control what they do.

[Nefla]

I like certain aspects of the chantry but not others. I like that the only human besides Duncan who cared about the city elves and the way they were treated was a Chantry priest. I also like that they shelter people in need, either refugees or people hiding from the demons in Redcliffe. Plus most of the priests and even templars you talk to throughout the game are very nice no matter what race you are. What I don't like is their extreme authority and singlemindedness as an organization. Their treatment of mages is also very unreasonable and often cruel.

[moilami]

Morrigans God son wrote...

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!

Lol, my toons will make their best and fill Morri with seeds the whole night to help Morri spawn a kid. If something, that I would do myself and definetly not count on Alistair Though will have to recruit Loghain for it and spend myself the night with Leliana. Win-Win situation.

[moilami]

the_one_54321 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Archereon wrote...
Moilami: A person with combat training is considered more of a threat than a person without any combat training...For good reason. I imagine the same would apply to a person with superhuman abilities that can be used to harm someone.

So, lets put all soldiers to a tower? And all warriors and especially rogues with stealth rank 4? Or lets give people a chance and punish them only after a crime has been committed?

The difference there is that someone with combat training has been trained. Someone with magical ability is dangerous even without any training. In fact, without training someone with magical ability is even more dangerous since they cannot really control what they do.

No, you don't cast even a vulnerability spell without training. You are just coward nanny and your country deserves Morri's God Child and no mages at all.

[Eshaye]

My Cousland is a chantry supporter. If you read about the chantry in the lore and not play the game I think it's easy to hate it when you view their history but they have also inspired good things. Take Leliana, she found a refuge with the lay sisters, and the dwarf casteless mother and her child as well if you choose that route in Orzammar.

I don't hate the chantry but like any big and old organization there is bound to be plenty of corruption, reforms might be in order.

Modifié par Eshaye, 01 février 2011 - 10:24 .

[moilami]

Eshaye wrote...

My Cousland is a chantry supporter, but she does get taken aback at how mages get treated. If you read about the chantry in the lore and not play the game I think it's easy to hate it when you view their history but they have also inspired good things. Take Leliana, she found a refuge with the lay sisters, and the dwarf casteless mother and her child as well if you choose that route in Orzammar.

I don't hate the chantry but like any big and old organization there is bound to be plenty of corruption, reforms might be in order.

Indeed reforms. My end game could be Leliana leading the new chantry and me myself saying to Wynne "Ur my **** now. There is no chantry anymore but someone has to keep an eye on you."


Edit: Lol sensored. Now everyone can just guess what was written there xD

Modifié par moilami, 01 février 2011 - 10:26 .

[LobselVith8]

wicNKWD37 wrote...

My human noble donated 5 sovereigns and Im gonna help the templars to kill the mages >

Well, the templars put a bounty on Morrigan in Witch Hunt because they merely suspect that she's a blood mage, so I wouldn't be surprised...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Only mages can channel demons into the material world. That's not made up or unfairly skewed. People are all people and all people are capable of being very dangerous based on their physical or mental prowess, but only a mage can actually be possesed by a demon and bring demons out of the fade.

Anyone can be possessed by a demon. Almost anything can. Even dead trees are possessed by demons (in Awakening). And demons can appear where the veil is weak, which is typically a place where many have died (like the Bercillian Forest). You seem to be saying that mages are too dangerous to have freedom. If mages were so dangerous than Thedas would have been overrun by abominations centuries before mages were segregated from Andrastian society because of a completely nonviolent protest (History of the Circle codex)...

the_one_54321 wrote...

The argument was made tha a rouge or a warrior can also kill a whole lot of people. That's true. So can someone with magical potential, if that person trains for it. But only a person with magical potential can also access the fade and the spirits within.

Yet Rivain, the Chasind, and the Dalish have no issues with mages living alongside non-mages. Makes one wonder how necessary the Chantry prisons really are... especially when the History of the Circle codex states segregating the mages happened because of a protest, not because of blood mages or abominations.

the_one_54321 wrote...

As for the chantry managing to fail at completely controlling the mages, well maybe they should have been even more authoritorian? Maybe the system used by the Qun for mages would be better, hmmm? No system is perfect. Saying "here is an instance where the system failed" can potenially be an opportunity for improvement and not a reason why the whole thing should be abandoned. My car wouldn't start the other day. I fixed it. Should I have just called a tow truck and had it taken to the dump instead? 

So in a system that already denies mages basic rights and can kill them on speculation and heresay alone, let's further mistreat and dehumanize them? If mages are willing to risk their lives to be freed from an oppressor, then maybe the problem is with the system in place.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Excluding the Mistreatment of mages which Imo is over-exaggerated. And the slaying of "malefiar" when they could have been apostates is the only real harm they commit

Yeah, mages having no rights, being forced to live in prisons, and being unable to contest their killing or lobotomy by templars because of mere accusations is such an exaggeration...

[Big Blue Car]

I dislike the Chantry but that's because I am a Desire Demon IRL.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Archereon wrote...
Why does everyone here hate the Chantry? Because nearly everyone here isn't Catholic. I'd be willing to bet if we polled every DA:O player, their views on the Chantry would directly mirror their real-life religious views.

No. Well, not exactly. In real life I'd be very much against what the Chantry does because in real life there are no mages that can summon demons from the fade and use blood magic to control people's minds. In real life when religious groups say "all of [Group A] are dangerous because they [action B]," it's a load of ignorant hateful garbage. In Ferelden when the Chantry says "mages pose a danger that is not found in other people," this claim is plainly verifiable.

If mages were so dangerous, then why weren't they segregated immediately after the humans gained their freedom from Tevinter? Why did it take a completely bloodless protest centuries after Emperor Drakon I first created the Chantry and the Circle of Magi to force the Order of Templars to segregate them? Why did it take a completely nonviolent protest in a cathedral to isolate mages from non-mages if they're so dangerous? There's absolutely no proof that the Chantry's anti-mage dogma is accurate, especially when we have alternatives to Chantry controlled Circles in Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind to see that mages can live with non-mages.

the_one_54321 wrote...

panamakira wrote...
My opinion though~ I know they had "some" reasons for such treatments against Mages if any but I still found it ridiculous and felt bad for the Mages.

You  know, I also felt bad for the mages when hearing them talk about it. Like Anders and Wynne. But I also couldn't help but think "but you do pose a real verfiable threat to people." It's a tough situation generated there because they are dangerous but they are still people. I think the concept presented here was very well written.

They have good reasons for throwing innocent people into prisons, where they're denied basic rights and can be killed or given a lobotomy without any say in the matter because the Chantry claims they're a threat? So why are Rivain, the Dalish, the Chasind, and Haven still in existance if mages are so dangerous that they warrant being imprisoned and oppressed for the rest of their lives? I'm going to disagree with that assessment. There's no proof provided in DA that the Chantry oppression of mages is necessary or even effective to prevent abominations from occuring - most of the codex entries we read about, and even the incident at the Tower, happened directly because of the templars being oppressors of the mages.

[the_one_54321]

I didn't say that the Chantry had the best approach to mitigating the danger. I said that they are strictly correct about there being a danger. If other places have better working systems then certainly the Chantry could maybe learn from them.

[moilami]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I didn't say that the Chantry had the best approach to mitigating the danger. I said that they are strictly correct about there being a danger. If other places have better working systems then certainly the Chantry could maybe learn from them.

I believe you said.

[LobselVith8]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I didn't say that the Chantry had the best approach to mitigating the danger. I said that they are strictly correct about there being a danger. If other places have better working systems then certainly the Chantry could maybe learn from them.

That isn't accurate. Templars believe the Chantry is correct, but clearly that isn't the case with alternatives to the Chantry like the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind who have mages among non-mages, and in over 700 years the Chantry has showed no signs of giving up their control over the mages of their Circles so they aren't interested in granting their prisons any freedoms.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I didn't say that the Chantry had the best approach to mitigating the danger. I said that they are strictly correct about there being a danger. If other places have better working systems then certainly the Chantry could maybe learn from them.

That isn't accurate. Templars believe the Chantry is correct, but clearly that isn't the case with alternatives to the Chantry like the nation of Rivain, the Dalish clans, and the Chasind who have mages among non-mages, and in over 700 years the Chantry has showed no signs of giving up their control over the mages of their Circles so they aren't interested in granting their prisons any freedoms.

I didn't mean to imply that the Chantry is willing to learn. I was saying that I would not object to the notion of the Chantry changing it's approach based on what other places have done effectively.

[Absafraginlootly]

I don't dislike the people of the chantry specificly, many of the ones in game are quite pleasant and want to help people.

It's the principles of the chantry as an organisation that are so unlikeable. They believe that their chant MUST be spread to all four corners of the world, that all other religions must be replaced with the Maker and they will hold Exalted Marches against anyone who is getting in the way of that.

If the chantry were to continue with this line of thinking than even if the Quanri didn't invade (unlikely as that is) eventually when thedas was stronger they would attack the quanri, they might try to convert them peacefully at first, but if we know anything about the Quanri at all we know THAT ain't happening. So they'd have to attack because their religious beliefs pretty much compell them to. Of course that's only if the chantry doesn't change at all, which hey, maybe hawke will be instrumental in them changing?

Anyway, it's kind of hard to like a religion with such uncomprimising beliefs as that, for me anyway, my charactors all have their own beliefs largely unaffected by what I think.

Modifié par Absafraginlootly, 01 février 2011 - 11:34 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Do I like the Chantry? Let me see..

Crusades(Exalted Marches).

Essentially making mages their slaves.

Controls their soldiers via addiction.

Inquisitors.

Feels that their rights supersede Grey Wardens, and kings.

Self righteous ****s.



No I'd say I don't like the chantry.. At all.

[moilami]

Absafraginlootly wrote...

I don't dislike the people of the chantry specificly, many of the ones in game are quite pleasant and want to help people.

It's the principles of the chantry as an organisation that are so unlikeable. They believe that their chant MUST be spread to all four corners of the world, that all other religions must be replaced with the Maker and they will hold Exalted Marches against anyone who is getting in the way of that.

If the chantry were to continue with this line of thinking than even if the Quanri didn't invade (unlikely as that is) eventually when thedas was stronger they would attack the quanri, they might try to convert them peacefully at first, but if we know anything about the Quanri at all we know THAT ain't happening. So they'd have to attack because their religious beliefs pretty much compell them to. Of course that's only if the chantry doesn't change at all, which hey, maybe hawke will be instrumental in them changing?

Anyway, it's kind of hard to like a religion with such uncomprimising beliefs as that, for me anyway, my charactors all have their own beliefs largely unaffected by what I think.

My toons will just laugh when you go do your religious wars against Qunari and think "Evolution in the progress. Let Qunari have fun with fools."


Edit: I could always though RP some kind of commoner, but eh, what the heck? Why?  Not fun.

Modifié par moilami, 02 février 2011 - 12:21 .

[deuce985]

No. I can go on all day what is wrong with the Chantry and how they're corrupt with their own military state in Templars.

Modifié par deuce985, 02 février 2011 - 12:20 .

[ziyon conqueror]

I think that the Chantry is rather radical, a bit, without their Andraste to guide them. They should have respected the elves for their religions; why they don't bother dwarves is a mystery. As for the mages, it is the fear of the Chantry and the ruthless determination of the templars that tend to spawn apostates and maleficar. Lucky they don't survey Grey Wardens, they predate Andraste; Avernus says that only under Grey Wardens can blood magic be used and true magic research allowed to flourish in the name of arcane progress. And if the Chantry believes that if the Chant of Light should be sung in the four corners of the world, they should sent people to those corners to sing it, rather than try converting everyone to their doctrine.

[AndrahilAdrian]

the chantry and it's priests are dogmatic, self-righteous, hypocritical, corrupt, holier-than-thou, humorless, oppressive, highly-strung, blinkered, misguided, and intolerant. Much like the real catholic church.