66 réponses à ce sujet

[Fleepster]

Sorry if this has been discussed, I did a search and couldn't find anything.  Does anyone know if the enemey levels up with your character?  That always a drag when developers do that...

[JEBesh]

It scales to a degree, but not so much that the challenge never changes.

[Fleepster]

hmm, not sure if U care for that...

[JEBesh]

Well, let me clear that up for you. I do!

[Herr Uhl]

Fleepster wrote...

hmm, not sure if U care for that...

What?

[JEBesh]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Fleepster wrote...

hmm, not sure if U care for that...

What?

He was just concerned about my needs is all.

[Fleepster]

Herr Uhl wrote...

What?

It's like in Oblivion, you can dink around doing a bunch of side quests and level your character up and then when you go to take on the main quest, you're all of a sudden fighting end-game mobs.  Not my cup of tea, that's all.

[Herr Uhl]

No, it's not like Oblivion, the scaling is area-bound. Think between 12 and 16 in level. There is a roof and a floor.

[MrGOH]

No, he was talking about U Thant, the 3rd Secretary General of the United Nations. Apparently U Thant's ghost does not like limited level scaling.

Edit: Aw, heck, this thread is getting serious. Well, level scaling is in but it's set for many areas once you enter the area, so if you come back later the enemies will be easier. In other areas the enemy levels are set and do not scale. There will be no random darkspawn encounters where they're wearing the best armor in the game a la Oblivion's ridiculously appointed bandits.

Modifié par MrGOH, 27 octobre 2009 - 04:39 .

[JEBesh]

Fleepster wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

What?

It's like in Oblivion, you can dink around doing a bunch of side quests and level your character up and then when you go to take on the main quest, you're all of a sudden fighting end-game mobs.  Not my cup of tea, that's all.

No, it's not like Oblivion. That kind of ridiculous scaling is exactly what they're avoiding.

[Nighteye2]

Herr Uhl wrote...

No, it's not like Oblivion, the scaling is area-bound. Think between 12 and 16 in level. There is a roof and a floor.

Yes, each level has a roof and a floor in terms of levels, and on top of that the level gets frozen when you first enter the area.

[Fleepster]

Herr Uhl wrote...

No, it's not like Oblivion, the scaling is area-bound. Think between 12 and 16 in level. There is a roof and a floor.

Ah, like what they did in Fallout 3.  That makes more sense, thanks for the info.

[Fleepster]

MrGOH wrote...

No, he was talking about U Thant, the 3rd Secretary General of the United Nations. Apparently U Thant's ghost does not like limited level scaling.

Edit: Aw, heck, this thread is getting serious. Well, level scaling is in but it's set for many areas once you enter the area, so if you come back later the enemies will be easier. In other areas the enemy levels are set and do not scale. There will be no random darkspawn encounters where they're wearing the best armor in the game a la Oblivion's ridiculously appointed bandits.

Perfect!   that rediculous notion of level scaling in Oblivion ruined the game for me.

[Dragon727272]

Yeah, Darkspawn running around in blood dragon armour wielding stuff like "sword of the righteous" (made up) would seem a little odd

[SheffSteel]

It's like the first time you enter you have to cast cone of cold. Then the roof and the floor get frozen, and when you come back they're still frozen so it's okay but you have to watch your footing.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 27 octobre 2009 - 05:16 .

[wiseman207]

Good, I was worried about this. It's ruined many other recent RPGs for me... character development and risk vs. reward are a big part of RPG gaming IMO.

[intrepidemise]

There's still no excuse for level-scaling at all IMHO. The entire point of leveling is to become stronger. If everyone else levels up with you, what's the point? Level-scaling seems to be focused on loot for the risk/reward. But if you're still dealing the same damage with new weapons and taking the same damage with new armor because all the other enemies leveled up with you and are using better gear as well...can someone explain why this is becoming MORE popular rather than less so? I don't remember Neverwinter Nights 2 having level scaling. Or Mass Effect. Or, hell, Final Fantasy, for that matter. A good RPG rewards time and hard work with a powerful character. Keep boss fights hard, but make thug fights easier. It shows how your character has GROWN.

[Tom Jolly]

Well here... this should be a novel concern: I am complaining that the enemies don't scale high enough. See, I leveled to 25 @ Ostigar using the XP exploit ( i know, i'm naughty). I was disappointed to find that my tank was killing 2-3 mobs before I'd get the chance to spellcast. I suppose this is what I get for cheating. Still... if there were only a slider to increase those max-min enemy levels... i'd be having a BLAST.

[vigo810]

intrepidemise wrote...

There's still no excuse for level-scaling at all IMHO. The entire point of leveling is to become stronger. If everyone else levels up with you, what's the point? Level-scaling seems to be focused on loot for the risk/reward. But if you're still dealing the same damage with new weapons and taking the same damage with new armor because all the other enemies leveled up with you and are using better gear as well...can someone explain why this is becoming MORE popular rather than less so? I don't remember Neverwinter Nights 2 having level scaling. Or Mass Effect. Or, hell, Final Fantasy, for that matter. A good RPG rewards time and hard work with a powerful character. Keep boss fights hard, but make thug fights easier. It shows how your character has GROWN.

You can still power up your character, just stop thinking of it as purely "levels" of power. By leveling up, you gain access to new talents and to new gear. The game only scales to your level, so your new gear (Veridium, Dragonbone, whatever it may be) will give you an advantage and so will an overabundance of talents.

Level scaling helps reduce the age old problem of players just grinding out areas to get tons of xp so they can just walkthrough the next few stages of the game. What's the fun in that?

Plus, the level scaling is what allows the player to have the freedom to do the major questlines in any order he or she chooses. It the enemies don't scale, then Bioware would have had to choose a specific progression route that would limit the player's freedom of choice.

Modifié par vigo810, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:07 .

[Kimberly Shaw]

Its better than Oblivion. Item scaling however, is a problem (for me). If you find a good helmet earlier on in the game, it will stay tier 1 but if you happen upon it later on it will be tier 5 or 6 or 7.



There is no way to level up helmets in the game to your tier, so you will be punished for finding some items earlier on as they will not be as potent for end game use as if you had waited until you leveled up to find them. Annoying, but there's probably a mod to help this unless you're on a console.



But monster scaling isn't that bad. And I'm no fan of scaling as you can tell.

[Sloth Of Doom]

When in doubt, RTFMM!

[joshmaster]

Yes the ennemies scale up to the level you are at. What this means, of course, is that Dragon age, atlhough fun to play is not really a role playing game. What makes RPG fun to play (The real ones that is), is that you have to get stronger in
order to tackle some of the ennemies that you can't beat right now.  It's enticing to get stronger because those stronger ennemies will guard important treasures or will guard the entrance to the next area of the map where you want to get to.
If you are strong enough to beat the guardians then you have become strong enough to tackle some of the ennemies in that new region which are very powerful. This new region will also contain some of the main creatures as the previous region so the fact that you are now much stronger will give you a feeling that leveling up was indeed worth it. Please note that this is only one way to design RPGs. I could name several other equally good ways of doing it.

So what I amsaying is that what makes the correctly designed RPGs fun to play is this sense, when you are leveling up, that you are indeed becoming someone who is stronger, better, faster, wiser, smarter etc etc. If you don't have that then the game loses much of it's appeal and It's simply not an RPG.  Unfortunately that's the case with Dragon age. If this game was done properly it would become an instant classic. Anyway that's my opinion. No doubt some of you will not agree. I could recommend some real good RPGs but they are all several years old and, sadly the graphics, are rather primitive by modern standards but man were they fun to play !.

[intrepidemise]

I agree with what Kimberly Shaw said about item leveling. You're supposed to be compensated for not becoming stronger than your enemies as you level by getting better gear. However, the enemy also has better gear, and, as she said, powerful items that you get early in the game become more useless as times goes on, so there's no incentive to seek out real challenges, as the rewards for such challenges do not last past a few levels. You never really become a "powerful" character. By the end of the game, you're still just some schmuck fighting for your life in every battle.

Also, Sloth of Doom, it isn't because we don't understand how level scaling works that we're annoyed and disappointed. It's because many of us disagree with the very premise of level scaling, regardless of how well (or not) it's implemented. Your arrogant "RTFM" comment is not welcome.

Modifié par intrepidemise, 08 décembre 2009 - 02:25 .

[Beechwell]

joshmaster wrote...
Anyway that's my opinion. No doubt some of you will not agree.

Predicted disagreement incoming:
Indeed I find your whole approach to role playing a bit strange. To me it is about creating and playing a unique character in a (more or less) fantastic world. Sure, leveling is nice to get a sense of progression and to reward the player for his efforts, but essentially it has little to do with the actual role playing part.
Even in "proper" PnP RPGs you get enemy scaling. Sure, a life game master can do it better than a computer game. Giving you different enemies that you'd also expect to be stronger (or simply more enemies, if the system doesn't punish that too heavily). But that is still scaling. If your character only encounters the same lowly robbers throughout lvl 1-20 your game master is doing something wrong I belive.

And in a video game where you want to leave different paths open for the player I see only to alternatives to enemy scaling:
a) Make level progress minimal so it has practically no effect on gameplay at all (which would take away the feeling of progression and reward, which most players are rather fond of)
Confront the player with enemies not related to the place you encounter them, but to the character's level. But that doesn't really work in a game where encounters are very much tied to the story and locale. (and essentially this would just be a different way to scale enemies)

[Akka le Vil]

JEBesh wrote...

It scales to a degree, but not so much that the challenge never changes.

Actually, sorry but it's exactly that : the challenge never changes.

JEBesh wrote...

No, it's not like Oblivion. That kind of ridiculous scaling is exactly what they're avoiding.

They failed, then. DAO felt just like Oblivion.