66 réponses à ce sujet

[Rainen89]

Scaling involves the monsters gaining higher tier abilities. But only to a certain extent. Notice none of the hundreds of enemy mages bothered to learn mass paralysis or mana clash. (For obvious reasons.) None of the archers know arrow of slaying. Enemy warriors are the most disappointing other than the first couple attacks shield pummel / RGN stuns with two handed and I've yet to notice anything from an enemy dual wield warrior there isn't a whole lot of scaling, I still think the beginning is the hardest part of the game.

[fro7k]

The roof and the floor don't prevent scaling from being a bad thing if you happen to be within those limits.

[Marvin TPA]

Thought the level scaling was very well done. I didn't notice it, there weren't any bandits in full glass armour etc, so good job Bioware.

[Loc'n'lol]

The bandits DO get silverite chainmail and the average Denerim guard DOES ends up in dragonbone chainmail...

[Akka le Vil]

fro7k wrote...

The roof and the floor don't prevent scaling from being a bad thing if you happen to be within those limits.

And considering the very large limits, you're basically always between them until the very end of the game.
Meaning it ends up being Oblivion all over again.

Marvin TPA wrote...

Thought the level scaling was very well done. I didn't notice it, there weren't any bandits in full glass armour etc, so good job Bioware.

You didn't notice the full silverite armor because they didn't drop it nor their graphics showed it. But the stat themselves went up. You're just shallow enough not to notice it if it doesn't have a graphical display.

Just start a new game right after finishing one. Notice how the fights feels exactly the same.

[Mordaedil]

If the game didn't have level scaling, then you would not be allowed to chose where to go after Lothering. Level scaling means you got that choice.



Also, someone mentioned NWN2 didn't have level scaling. Yes, it did. Encounter scaling, challenge rating and level adjustment. It was in Baldur's Gate as well. It has in fact, been in every RPG that didn't just plot down NPC's with a preset amount of statistics.



In DAO's case, they did it better than ever, because your stats modify your combat ability, not your level. Ergo, an enemy would always be as tough as he was, but that means if an encounter was elite or boss, they would be tough cookies and not just easily vanquished.

[Marvin TPA]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Marvin TPA wrote...

Thought the level scaling was very well done. I didn't notice it, there weren't any bandits in full glass armour etc, so good job Bioware.

You didn't notice the full silverite armor because they didn't drop it nor their graphics showed it. But the stat themselves went up. You're just shallow enough not to notice it if it doesn't have a graphical display.

Just start a new game right after finishing one. Notice how the fights feels exactly the same.

Hush now, no need to be so rude. 
I realise that it was scaled, and I know how it was scaled. Its just I didn't find it to be noticeable and thought it was skilfully implemented. The example I gave was from Morrowind, a game I loved, but which was marred by some really glaring "look at me" immersion breaking scaling. 

Edit: just seen the date of the op. sorry about participating in thread necromancy. You have an axe to grind fair enough, leave me out of it from now. 

Modifié par Marvin TPA, 09 décembre 2009 - 02:17 .

[Statue]

I'm not really a fan of level scaling. I think level scaling detracts from some positive ingredients in an RPG: a sense of accomplishment and progression, a feel of danger, a source of motivation to become stronger to take on superior enemies, the choice to take on a risky encounter or location for some higher level rewards or playing it more safe in areas that aren't so tough, more consistency in the world (as level scaling often leads to inconsistency in creatures and/or their world placement), and a more tangible and measurable sense of increasing power.

It was something I didn't like in Oblivion but some great mods came along and made it far more to my taste. It appears to not be so glaring in vanilla DAO as in vanilla Oblivion, so at least it's a better implementation of level scaling (they've gone to some effort to tackle some of the 'standard' drawbacks of blanket scaling - for example, the creature type level limiting prevents epic lvl 20 rats and such like); even so, I think I'd still prefer it without scaling.

Modifié par Statue, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:08 .

[Akka le Vil]

Mordaedil wrote...

If the game didn't have level scaling, then you would not be allowed to chose where to go after Lothering. Level scaling means you got that choice.

Each single time level scaling is talked about how crap it is, there is this completely false argument showing its ugly head.

THIS. IS. COMPLETELY. FALSE.

For the 156765414764th time.

Also, someone mentioned NWN2 didn't have level scaling. Yes, it did. Encounter scaling, challenge rating and level adjustment. It was in Baldur's Gate as well. It has in fact, been in every RPG that didn't just plot down NPC's with a preset amount of statistics.

Fallout ?

[imukka]

I had 18 level in deep roads and enemies had level 16 /17

you call that scaling...

[Kimberly Shaw]

If the game didn't have level scaling, then you would not be allowed to chose where to go after Lothering. Level scaling means you got that choice

Agreed with Akka, this statement is 100% false and makes my head spin. What other older school RPGs would do in this situation is have a character, like Alistair, NUDGE the player in the direction of the level appropriate content, but leave the player with the decision of which quest to take on next. I prefer this approach, because I like variety in my difficulty and unique legendary items that are STATIC in power not gimped because I went and got them early (I'm looking at you Helmet of Honnleath).



All that said, I still find the enemy scaling to be not quite so bad EXCEPT where items are concerned in DA:O, I hate that unique gear drops can scale to different tiers depending on when you find it. Makes me SO angry simply because it DOES make the game linear unless you want to gimp yourself out by having drops weaker end game because they are tier 1 or 2 instead of tier 7.



(Yes, I'm aware of the vendor exploit but it doesn't work on helmets and some other gear).

[Zejoph]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

If the game didn't have level scaling, then you would not be allowed to chose where to go after Lothering. Level scaling means you got that choice

Agreed with Akka, this statement is 100% false and makes my head spin.

How in the world is that state 100% false? Imagine DA without scaling: You would want to go to Orzammar right after Lothering, but wouldn't be able to, due to the fact that Orzammar is a static level 15+ area, so your options would be limited to Redcliffe. I understand wanting a challenge, and yeah, it'd probably be cool to go to Orzammar right after Lothering and kill a level 15 via strategy and whatnot; it'd feel like a real accomplishment, and I get that, but most of the time, I'd rather the enemies just be appropriate for my level. If you want a challenge, there are dragons to be fought.

On the subject of item scaling, I have nothing to say because it hasn't been a problem for me as of yet, but from what I hear it may need to be fixed or something. This reply was specifically about enemy level scaling.

[DoCoCo]

I remember in the Baldur's Gate series, there were areas that if you visited them at low levels, you got your a** kicked! And my, that was fun! This also gives the feeling of acting in a real world. Immersion. Some parts in a real world are more dangerous than others. That's it.
Of course also the BG series had encounter scaling, but it made sense plot wise, since this happened because later on you were mostly fighting guys that were higher in the hierarchy of the evil guys, or different kinds/species of monsters. So it did not destroy the feeling of immersion.
In DAO, you fight some particular enemies (darkspawn, renevant etc) throughout the game from the begining to the end (at least as far as i played) and no matter how you progress and what you learn, you are still one of the same compared to them. What a pity. So, do the masses level up or only heroes level up? The same thing with all the non-existent doors, the guards not hunting you for stealing, the clear distinction between combat and non-combat mode and the non-attackable NPCs.
But all these things I think, are basic design decisions which determine the feeling a game gives. It may be that as a Video Game DAO is better this way, and to tell the truth I enjoy it a lot! But as an RPG, I think it is inferior to the BG series. To me the BG series is a piece of art, while DAO is a commercial product, a successful and enjoyable one of course. Am I the only one that thinks that CRPGs are going down the drain, or am I getting old?

Modifié par DoCoCo, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[boardnfool86]

The level scaling is not like oblivion, if there was no scaling at all this game would be boring halfway through. You can encounter every type of enemy in the first half of the game, from dragon to spider to skeleton. As is, the sooner you encounter an enemy the easier they will be down the road, but not scaling the game at all would be dumb... and for those of you who want various areas different levels... they are, there are floors, so as is, your freedom to choose how you tackle the various quests is somewhat guided for you, if they made the floors more drastic then you would be forced to follow a certain line through the story. Not leveling the game makes no sense, I am sorry for those of you who prefer no leveling, but this game was clearly designed with leveling in mind so no matter wast order you tackle it in, it remains somewhat challenging... emphasis on somewhat...



Go straight to ozammar after ostagar if you want to see how the leveling works

[AshedMan]

I loathed Oblivion's scaling mechanic and eventually stopped playing the game because of it. Dragon Age does it in such a great way that it's not even noticeable. The game is fun and challenging at all levels.

[DoCoCo]

Of course it's done better than Oblivion. There are no rats threatening 20 level characters! Bioware is not that stupid. In Oblivion scaling was a game killer, until there was a mod around it.

[Elizabeth Sterling]

I refute the idea that scaling is necessary for freedom. In games like BG2 you could go where you wanted when you wanted and the difficulty of any encounter varied with what abillities you had at your disposal, say, clerics made dealing with infernals a whole lot easier, mages tended to work best in scenarios involving a lot of disparate nasties and fighters tended to be the best choice for the big bad single monsters such as dragons.

[Polluxor]

joshmaster wrote...

 I could recommend some real good RPGs but they are all several years old and, sadly the graphics, are rather primitive by modern standards but man were they fun to play !.

Realmz or Exile Series?

Anyways, pretty much all have been said about how enemy and more importantly item level scaling are immersion breakers.

[AsheraII]

If there's such a thing as the avatar getting better (leveling up), and ALSO an open explorable world where the avatar can choose to do the content in whatever order he or she pleases, then there is also a simple need for having the content (mobs) level up (scale) as well.



Let's assume there was a fixed progress path:

Lotharing (lvl 1-4) -> Redcliffe (lvl 4-6) -> Tower (lvl 6-9) -> Brecillian Forest (lvl 9-12) -> Orzammar (lvl 12-16).

Now there are two options with making those levels fixed:

1) Make the progress through these levels fixed as well, effectively turning the game into something as linear as Super Mario.

2) Still allow for free exploration, which means traveling to the wrong place after Lotharing might as well give an option for "Commit suicide right now? Y/N", or if you do happen to succeed at beating Orzammar as a lvl 4, will give you enough experience to boost you to level 9, and if you then happen to do Redcliffe as last stop before the final battle, will make that area soo easy to do that it's simply not funny anymore.



Another thing are the DLC's. These scale too. What fun is it if you can only get Shale after you've already cleared the main quest? You wouldn't have access to Shale's personal quest anymore, you wouldn't be able to train Shale's abilities and attributes like you'd like them, you'd only get another option for a toon at the final battle, which would be more or less identical to EVERY player.



The game is not open enough to be called "sandbox", but I think it's a good thing to have all these different options for progress available. Which simply isn't feasible without some minor difficulty scaling. I definitely prefer this over Super Mario.

[OBoile]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Mordaedil wrote...

If the game didn't have level scaling, then you would not be allowed to chose where to go after Lothering. Level scaling means you got that choice.

Each single time level scaling is talked about how crap it is, there is this completely false argument showing its ugly head.

THIS. IS. COMPLETELY. FALSE.

For the 156765414764th time.

Actually it is true. Otherwise the first area you went to would be very challenging while the 4th would be very easy.

[-Solrek-]

The problem with level scaling is that every battle 'feels' the same, from the beginning of the game to the end, no matter what path you take.



I liked how it was done in Baldur's Gate II, where it was a mix. Some areas you just could not complete, so you would have to 'quest' for more items and power before returning to take on that challenge again.

[boardnfool86]

-Solrek- wrote...

The problem with level scaling is that every battle 'feels' the same, from the beginning of the game to the end, no matter what path you take.

I liked how it was done in Baldur's Gate II, where it was a mix. Some areas you just could not complete, so you would have to 'quest' for more items and power before returning to take on that challenge again.

Really? Because I think the darkspawn are a lot easier later than they are inthe beginning, not that they are ever really hard, but I can run through a dozen darkspawn with my dual wielder in less than a minute now, not the case in ostagar.

I think this argument comes down to who likes scaling and who doesn't, because BioWare did an excellent job with the scaling (minus a certain Denerim back alley encounter)

[AsheraII]

-Solrek- wrote...

The problem with level scaling is that every battle 'feels' the same, from the beginning of the game to the end, no matter what path you take.

I think this is more of a problem with the AI than it is because of scaling. I don't think I've ever seen a high level random enemy mage use a spell like Cone of Cold or Blizzard. The only AOE's I've actually ever seen used by the AI are breath attacks by dragons, cleaves or sweeps or whatever by warriors, and ONCE I've seen a Death Cloud. For the rest, it's all single target.

The AI also doesn't focus on one target, unless you somehow taunt it to do so. It's rather "dumb" at picking it's target.
The mobs themselves never taunt either. It could make things rather interesting if it did, and somehow "forced" your party to focus on one specific opponent for a little while instead. Imagine a group with a special (mini) boss or lieutenant, but who's also got some highly armored henchman who taunts your partymembers away from him, so he's free to wreak havoc within your party while you're locked in a fight with something less special that tanks like Alistair?

So, there is gladly some scaling in game, there's just a little lack of AI to actually use this scaling to its advantage.

[-Solrek-]

Well, I'm playing on Hard as a Dual-Wield Berserker, with Alistair, Morrigan, and Leliana, 45 hours in and every battle 'feels' the same. I guess you could say it feels "Easy" as you describe. I have never had more than one party member go down in a battle and even the High Dragon only took down my tank Alistair, who was immediately revived. I haven't even utilized all of the tactics, such as stealth, traps, poison and salves.



I expected to get wiped by the High Dragon and have to come back later at a high level and beat it. I thought I would get wiped by the Revenants in Brecilian and have to come back later to complete the quest for the Juggernaut armor. I defeated Orzammar's greatest warriors with barely a thought!



I think Bioware is afraid to let anyone lose a battle. Perhaps my next play through on Nightmare will be different, but I expect each battle to 'feel' the same again, just a bit harder.

[BramAlam12345]

Any CRPG that doesn't have level scaling is either going to be very linear or very boring.



Oblivion famously implemented it very poorly. I thought that Dragon Age did it quite well.