66 réponses à ce sujet

[-Solrek-]

No, what I am saying is that there could be a mix. Some encounters, like a High Dragon, you just need to come back later with the right equipment and experience to complete. Like Baldur's Gate 2, which had some scaling, but mixed in level minimums as well.

[ZtriDer1379]

Well, after a bit of reading, Im just 1/2 a minded wiser about what is what, but what I really woundering is, can go to the dwarfs 1st? or do I have to go to the castle 1st. Can start at the elfs freeing them from the warewolfs as a start instead of going for the Al dud?

[keesio74]

Not a fan of scaling either. I loved back in the old RPG, if you went into an area meant for later in the game, you got your ass handed to you. Then you came back at a later level, it felt that much better to kick ass in there. That happened to me in Bard's Tale 2. Starting out, I found The Grey Crypt wandering around. Decided to take a peek and got demolished. Figured out that the crypt was meant for the end the hard way.

[Kimberly Shaw]

How in the world is that state 100% false? Imagine DA without scaling: You would want to go to Orzammar right after Lothering, but wouldn't be able to, due to the fact that Orzammar is a static level 15+ area, so your options would be limited to Redcliffe. I understand wanting a challenge, and yeah, it'd probably be cool to go to Orzammar right after Lothering and kill a level 15 via strategy and whatnot; it'd feel like a real accomplishment, and I get that, but most of the time, I'd rather the enemies just be appropriate for my level. If you want a challenge, there are dragons to be fought.



On the subject of item scaling, I have nothing to say because it hasn't been a problem for me as of yet, but from what I hear it may need to be fixed or something. This reply was specifically about enemy level scaling.

Thanks for the intelligent reply.



I guess for me, and many people, I don't have any problem playing a game that has areas you can access and they are super difficult, because I grew up on this type of game (Pools of Radiance and the Gold Box series, Bard's Tale(s), Baldur's Gate(2) etc.). They had limited or no scaling and didn't feel so linear, there was a logical sequence to doing a plot that had your foes change as you got more powerful.



Rather than the same Genlocks and Ogres and what not just gaining power as you do.



Its just a worrying trend of designers that are catering to a "don't make the game too hard for my 12 year old son playing his X-Box" so putting in scaling means the encounters are never too difficult for you to complete, or they are necessarily boxed off from you.



I guess I would like it better if they had say a reason in the game for an area being harder if you complete it later, complete with different monsters (bigger and with new names?). Scaling but with less immersion breaking.



Loot scaling is the bigger problem for me, and yes, there are aspects of it in DA:O that need a fix. Currently a unique item in DA:O is either:

1) Fixed in tier no matter what level you are when it drops. Cannot be sold to a vendor and bought back at a higher tier. (best)

2) Scaled in tier to tie to your level when you enter the zone. Can be sold to a vendor and bought back at a higher tier (weird, but not terrible)

3) Scaled in tier to tie to your level when you enter the zone. Cannot be sold to a vendor and bought back at a higher tier (Broken! Is part of the "too linear" problem)



Why does ONE game have 3 different loot scaling methods? Design Fail.

[AsheraII]

Oh, I remember those! I think I bought Pols of Radiance because of the box art at the time, lol.

Of the Bards Tale series, I mostly played 3, which did have some scaling and was linear as well. As you leveled, the mobs got different names and became of higher level, while to access certain areas, you needed to learn specific spells or bard songs first to open the "door". A few areas even required Geomancer spells, which could take quite a while to learn. With all spellnames being shortened to 4-letter codes, this could be pretty inconvenient

[boardnfool86]

-Solrek- wrote...

Well, I'm playing on Hard as a Dual-Wield Berserker, with Alistair, Morrigan, and Leliana, 45 hours in and every battle 'feels' the same. I guess you could say it feels "Easy" as you describe. I have never had more than one party member go down in a battle and even the High Dragon only took down my tank Alistair, who was immediately revived. I haven't even utilized all of the tactics, such as stealth, traps, poison and salves.

I expected to get wiped by the High Dragon and have to come back later at a high level and beat it. I thought I would get wiped by the Revenants in Brecilian and have to come back later to complete the quest for the Juggernaut armor. I defeated Orzammar's greatest warriors with barely a thought!

I think Bioware is afraid to let anyone lose a battle. Perhaps my next play through on Nightmare will be different, but I expect each battle to 'feel' the same again, just a bit harder.

Are you playing on a console, the console versions are easier, just an FYI. Console players are thought of as more casual gamers in general and the 360 can't support the same number of foes as the PC.

I also would be annoyed if I constantly had to come back later to beat things... it would ruin the flow and your bad ass vibe. I realize some people prefer to try repeatedly on most things  but I prefer BioWare's method of you die if you eff up or plan wrong, not because the battle is impossible (although the gating encounter at Ozamammar is impossible at level 6)

I don't know, I like it and think it was well done

[boardnfool86]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

How in the world is that state 100% false? Imagine DA without scaling: You would want to go to Orzammar right after Lothering, but wouldn't be able to, due to the fact that Orzammar is a static level 15+ area, so your options would be limited to Redcliffe. I understand wanting a challenge, and yeah, it'd probably be cool to go to Orzammar right after Lothering and kill a level 15 via strategy and whatnot; it'd feel like a real accomplishment, and I get that, but most of the time, I'd rather the enemies just be appropriate for my level. If you want a challenge, there are dragons to be fought.

On the subject of item scaling, I have nothing to say because it hasn't been a problem for me as of yet, but from what I hear it may need to be fixed or something. This reply was specifically about enemy level scaling.

Thanks for the intelligent reply.

I guess for me, and many people, I don't have any problem playing a game that has areas you can access and they are super difficult, because I grew up on this type of game (Pools of Radiance and the Gold Box series, Bard's Tale(s), Baldur's Gate(2) etc.). They had limited or no scaling and didn't feel so linear, there was a logical sequence to doing a plot that had your foes change as you got more powerful.

Rather than the same Genlocks and Ogres and what not just gaining power as you do.

Its just a worrying trend of designers that are catering to a "don't make the game too hard for my 12 year old son playing his X-Box" so putting in scaling means the encounters are never too difficult for you to complete, or they are necessarily boxed off from you.

I guess I would like it better if they had say a reason in the game for an area being harder if you complete it later, complete with different monsters (bigger and with new names?). Scaling but with less immersion breaking.

Loot scaling is the bigger problem for me, and yes, there are aspects of it in DA:O that need a fix. Currently a unique item in DA:O is either:
1) Fixed in tier no matter what level you are when it drops. Cannot be sold to a vendor and bought back at a higher tier. (best)
2) Scaled in tier to tie to your level when you enter the zone. Can be sold to a vendor and bought back at a higher tier (weird, but not terrible)
3) Scaled in tier to tie to your level when you enter the zone. Cannot be sold to a vendor and bought back at a higher tier (Broken! Is part of the "too linear" problem)

Why does ONE game have 3 different loot scaling methods? Design Fail.

Disagree, I think it's dumb that you do a certain favor for a certain party member and the item you get for that member is horrible. Would have been good at level 6, but now you're level 10 and it sucks. Would be nice if that kinda item leveled. I also think at higher levels lower tiers should be available... When I got Oghren he wasnt strong enough for dragon bone but silverite was no longer available so he had crap armor - annoying.

I think it could be streamlined for sure... one, selling and buying back at a higher tier is dumb. If there was some sort of explanation like a certain smithy was skilled and replicating items and transferring enchanments to higher quality materials, ok sure. But to sell something and buy it right back at a higher tier, kinda dumb i agree... although I will admit I abuse it. Why have steel warden commander armor when I can have dragonbone?

[Paromlin]

Mordaedil wrote...

If the game didn't have level scaling, then you would not be allowed to chose where to go after Lothering. Level scaling means you got that choice.

As has been already pointed out, (non-)linearity has nothing to do with level scaling and thus it's not dependant on it. It's all about carefully designing combat encounters instead of going the easy route and let scaling adjust everything, destroying the enjoyment of getting *relatively* more powerful by leveling up. The world also feels very artificial as a consequence of level scaling. Not to mention the ridiculous loot scaling..

Also, someone mentioned NWN2 didn't have level scaling. Yes, it did. Encounter scaling, challenge rating and level adjustment. It was in Baldur's Gate as well. It has in fact, been in every RPG that didn't just plot down NPC's with a preset amount of statistics.

Here you're just spewing more nonsense. NWN2 has no scaling. Challenge rating and level adjustment have nothing to do with level scaling - it serves to calculate how much exp you get from an encounter. Which shows that you don't understand the subject. As for "encounter scaling"; you've made that up.
Also, stop spreading misinformation about BG and BG2.
BG didn't have scaling at all. BG 2 had a very limited and totally different type of scaling from DA's; i.e. some additional monsters were added in *certain* places depending on your level, with the rest of the monsters being unchanged. Therefore, the vast majority of monsters (including all the unique/named ones) were static.

In DAO's case, they did it better than ever, because your stats modify your combat ability, not your level. Ergo, an enemy would always be as tough as he was, but that means if an encounter was elite or boss, they would be tough cookies and not just easily vanquished.

It's amazing that even if you don't understand very well what is being talked about, you continue to vehemently defend every design decision made by Bioware.
While you hate so much the way it was done in Oblivion, you praise how it was done in DA, which is ironic because in practice it's the same. The level range is so big that most of the time you'll have enemies scaled exactly to your level (-+ 1 because of the "rank" adjustment).

[intrepidemise]

I've noticed since the patch that the game is much more enjoyable than it was, but now it almost seems like they just nerfed all the enemies...maybe it's just me. I've said many times that I hate level scaling, and the game got very frustrating very quickly at first. Now that they've patched it, though, the game is entirely different to play. I actually feel powerful now. I hope they didn't just change "normal" mode into "easy" mode.

[Gzhindra]

intrepidemise wrote...

There's still no excuse for level-scaling at all IMHO. The entire point of leveling is to become stronger. If everyone else levels up with you, what's the point? Level-scaling seems to be focused on loot for the risk/reward. But if you're still dealing the same damage with new weapons and taking the same damage with new armor because all the other enemies leveled up with you and are using better gear as well...can someone explain why this is becoming MORE popular rather than less so? I don't remember Neverwinter Nights 2 having level scaling. Or Mass Effect. Or, hell, Final Fantasy, for that matter. A good RPG rewards time and hard work with a powerful character. Keep boss fights hard, but make thug fights easier. It shows how your character has GROWN.

It's funny that you're mentionning final fantasy since it is final fantasy 8 that invented level scaling!

And there's level scaling in mass effect!

[Whailor]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Its better than Oblivion. Item scaling however, is a problem (for me). If you find a good helmet earlier on in the game, it will stay tier 1 but if you happen upon it later on it will be tier 5 or 6 or 7.

There is no way to level up helmets in the game to your tier, so you will be punished for finding some items earlier on as they will not be as potent for end game use as if you had waited until you leveled up to find them. Annoying, but there's probably a mod to help this unless you're on a console.

But monster scaling isn't that bad. And I'm no fan of scaling as you can tell.

Well, that's the game issue but there are mods out there to fix it. For example I've used myself the Winter Forge mod, it should be listed here under Projects too. With it you can "level" up the items. I've done it myself when, for example, I found one item from a set from one tier and later, at higher level, found another item from same set but it had already higher tier. No problem, stashed it into the "anvil" the mod provides, spoke with NPC and simply upgraded the material of the item. Done, both items with same material tier. Wonderful mod.

Only limit here is that it may not work on common items which can be found anywhere in the game, which are used by NPC's as well and such. But the "named" items like quest rewards or set pieces or unique pieces can all be upgraded (well, weapons and armor that is) like so.

[solitude00]

I have question on scaling and the game definition of  "Areas." I understand that one of the developers has stated that critter levels are fixed the first time you enter an area, within a certain min - max level range, and that this doesn't change if you leave and return.

However is an area say "Dwarven Area" or "Deeper Underground Area" or even a specific little locale like "XXX Thaig"? I sometimes like to go to an area just to get a specific easy to get item, and go off to do something else. However if everything in a General Area (and all maps in it) are scaled to my L10 character ... then I can't help feel like I made the game artificially easy by locking in enemy levels to my low level character.

For that matter is there an easy way to tell what level your opponents are? About the only difference I can see aside from general toughness is that higher level archers use scattershot. Even the armor improvements tend to look the same after about L12 or so.

I checked the Missing Manual and they don't define "Area" in their either.

Appreciate any feedback from people in the know. 

Modifié par solitude00, 30 décembre 2009 - 02:29 .

[Greedy Halfling]

Apologies for rezzing a dead thread but I also came here looking for enemy scaling information:
My 3 cents:

I think what all this boils down to is programmers not being able to program AI the way that SHOULD be happening.

AsheraII hints at a great way of working towards a better AI, with sneaky bosses sometimes being able to use a henchman who can taunt the PC. What we get is 'level scaling' and it is a poor solution. Thinking about what Statue and Akka le Vil said; positive ingredients of the RPG are lost. The accomplishment and feeling of power and you do not need level scaling for an open-ended game if you can program the AI. Game makers need to go back to the last great RPGs and start afresh, cos the new direction is starting to suck.

I am confused about DA:O so far as I've just started playing it - Is there a recommended path of completion? No, I dont think there is? Levels are locked once you enter them? So can I go just go to each place at level 4 and lock all the areas to level 4 and complete it easily?

I have the same questions as ZtriDer1379

[harlath]

For those who don't like level scaling, try out the mod in my signature. It removes level scaling from everything bar the DLC (I don't have the area codes for these, would appreciate them). Any feedback warmly appreciated.

[ladydesire]

Greedy Halfling wrote...

The accomplishment and feeling of power

I don't get these beating on "defenseless" opponents, or getting beaten to a pulp by foes I have a very slim chance of defeating without optimizing my character; I do get these when fighting opponents that are meant to be a challenge at any difficulty setting, without resorting to character optimization. But then, your milage may vary.

[Woffen5]

I did aeducan thaigh at a lower level and then went on to other areas. When I came back at about level 19 and entered Cairdins cross the mobs were at level 13-16 and pose no challenge whatsoever. Is there a way to unlock it so that the mobs are scaled to my level again?

Modifié par Woffen5, 02 août 2010 - 01:07 .

[Linkamus3]

joshmaster wrote...

Yes the ennemies scale up to the level you are at. What this means, of course, is that Dragon age, atlhough fun to play is not really a role playing game. What makes RPG fun to play (The real ones that is), is that you have to get stronger in
order to tackle some of the ennemies that you can't beat right now.  It's enticing to get stronger because those stronger ennemies will guard important treasures or will guard the entrance to the next area of the map where you want to get to.
If you are strong enough to beat the guardians then you have become strong enough to tackle some of the ennemies in that new region which are very powerful. This new region will also contain some of the main creatures as the previous region so the fact that you are now much stronger will give you a feeling that leveling up was indeed worth it. Please note that this is only one way to design RPGs. I could name several other equally good ways of doing it.

So what I amsaying is that what makes the correctly designed RPGs fun to play is this sense, when you are leveling up, that you are indeed becoming someone who is stronger, better, faster, wiser, smarter etc etc. If you don't have that then the game loses much of it's appeal and It's simply not an RPG.  Unfortunately that's the case with Dragon age. If this game was done properly it would become an instant classic. Anyway that's my opinion. No doubt some of you will not agree. I could recommend some real good RPGs but they are all several years old and, sadly the graphics, are rather primitive by modern standards but man were they fun to play !.

WIN