299 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

In both cases the character must be shaped around the dialog system to a certain extent. In DAO you do this before you push the button, and in DA2 you do it after you've heard the line.

It's too late then, though.  Then the NPCs are already responding, and I'm not able to interpret those responses properly unless I know what my character's mental state was going in.

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

But why does the act of making people happier make us happy?

Personal preference.  Why do you like rice pudding (or not, as the case may be)?

There's no justification for personal preferences.

Think about it for a second.  What possible reason apart from some limited form of empathy?  The act of giving away my money doesn't make me happy, it's seeing that it made someone else happy, which I soak up, and I am happier for it.

Sure, because that's something you enjoy.  Some people don't.  Again, personal preference.

I don't give away money.

I like rice pudding because it tastes good.  I like helping people because it makes me feel happy.

But rice pudding has a physical effect on my tongue and stimulates certain taste buds to creat a reaction that pleases me. 

There is no direct intereaction in the case of making people happy so I must conclude that some kind of indirect empathy is involved.

[Albatroz]

Sylvius, based off of what you've written, I think I can fairly say that you want the story and dialog of CRPGS to go exactly the way you want them to go. I'm sorry man, but that's just not possible. There will always be times when you would want your character to say or do something, but it's not programmed into the game to allow you to do that. Now most of us will be a little upset by this, but then move on. But if people demand that those features be available to them, like you do, just so the story can progress in a manner you find superior, than I hate to break it to you but CRPGs may just not be for you. Maybe you should play some table-top RPGs, way fewer limitations. If that's not possible, write a book. That way everything can go exactly the way you want it to.

[Blacklash93]

Is anyone else a disappointed from what we've seen from the dialogue scenes? Not full-on cinematics, but your typical interactive conversations.

Characters standing stiffly in place with their arms at their sides and looking robotic when they actually do move. The same blank expression on their face until they start talking. The scene with the Rock Wraith in the new footage is a good example of this. The only character that moves around is the Wraith and once it approaches Hawke, it turns robotically like some primitive drone repositioning it's viewing angle. And then there's Hawke's punch which animates rather clunky when compared to Shepard's.

DA2 definitely looks like a step back after ME2 from what we can see so far in terms of presentation.

(Had to repost this.)

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 février 2011 - 11:28 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

JrayM16 wrote...

But rice pudding has a physical effect on my tongue and stimulates certain taste buds to creat a reaction that pleases me. 

There is no direct intereaction in the case of making people happy so I must conclude that some kind of indirect empathy is involved.

There is, actually.  They're called mirror neurons.

Just because you don't know how something works doesn't mean that any mystical explanation you can come up with is right.  That's how religions get started.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The RustMonster wrote...

Sylvius, based off of what you've written, I think I can fairly say that you want the story and dialog of CRPGS to go exactly the way you want them to go. I'm sorry man, but that's just not possible. There will always be times when you would want your character to say or do something, but it's not programmed into the game to allow you to do that. Now most of us will be a little upset by this, but then move on. But if people demand that those features be available to them, like you do, just so the story can progress in a manner you find superior, than I hate to break it to you but CRPGs may just not be for you. Maybe you should play some table-top RPGs, way fewer limitations. If that's not possible, write a book. That way everything can go exactly the way you want it to.

I love CRPGs.  CRPGs are great.  I vastly prefer CRPGs to tabletop games because CRPGs don't require any other people.

But these newer games are making some terrible design decisions.

[Huntress]

Hawke's punch was meh but, some people might like it, I don't but, I don't like fish or peas so yeah am wierd... I did laugh at it.

[Albatroz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Sylvius, based off of what you've written, I think I can fairly say that you want the story and dialog of CRPGS to go exactly the way you want them to go. I'm sorry man, but that's just not possible. There will always be times when you would want your character to say or do something, but it's not programmed into the game to allow you to do that. Now most of us will be a little upset by this, but then move on. But if people demand that those features be available to them, like you do, just so the story can progress in a manner you find superior, than I hate to break it to you but CRPGs may just not be for you. Maybe you should play some table-top RPGs, way fewer limitations. If that's not possible, write a book. That way everything can go exactly the way you want it to.

I love CRPGs.  CRPGs are great.  I vastly prefer CRPGs to tabletop games because CRPGs don't require any other people.

But these newer games are making some terrible design decisions.

Terrible to you. Personally, I love the fact that we have a voiced protagonist. It brings the game to life for me. I'm perfectly fine with paraphrasing becuase it's part of how the VO character works. I think these are purely positive additions to the franchise I love, and I know that there are tons of people who agree with me. That's not to say that you're alone in your opinions, but just because you think they're terrible doesn't make them so.

[ThatGamerWithSouvlaki285]

Blacklash93, Finally! Somebody who thinks the same way I do about this.(see my earlier comment on page10) . I couldn't not agree more. Well done!!

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

But rice pudding has a physical effect on my tongue and stimulates certain taste buds to creat a reaction that pleases me. 

There is no direct intereaction in the case of making people happy so I must conclude that some kind of indirect empathy is involved.

There is, actually.  They're called mirror neurons.

Just because you don't know how something works doesn't mean that any mystical explanation you can come up with is right.  That's how religions get started.

It's not mystical, you've completely misinterpretted my point.

Regardless of whether it's caused by mirror neurons(which it was) or magic, it happened.  Empathy exists because I did something to make someone else happy.  It's the same thing as that taste exists ebcause I put something in my mouth and had a reaction. 

You seem under the false impression that empathy is some kind of supernatural connection.  No, it's just feeling emotions that correspond to those of others because of what happens to others, which totally exists.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Blacklash93 wrote...

DA2 definitely looks like a step back after ME2 from what we can see so far in terms of presentation.

The ME games had just about the worst conversations I can imagine, so stepping "back" from that would be quite a feat.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The RustMonster wrote...

Terrible to you. Personally, I love the fact that we have a voiced protagonist. It brings the game to life for me. I'm perfectly fine with paraphrasing becuase it's part of how the VO character works. I think these are purely positive additions to the franchise I love, and I know that there are tons of people who agree with me. That's not to say that you're alone in your opinions, but just because you think they're terrible doesn't make them so.

You now have far less freedom to design your character.

JrayM16 wrote...

Regardless of whether it's caused by mirror neurons(which it was) or magic, it happened.  Empathy exists because I did something to make someone else happy.  It's the same thing as that taste exists ebcause I put something in my mouth and had a reaction. 

You seem under the false impression that empathy is some kind of supernatural connection.  No, it's just feeling emotions that correspond to those of others because of what happens to others, which totally exists.

If that's all empathy is, then I'll concede its existence.  But that definition also renders it useless as a gameplay tool, as its not universal.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's too late then, though.  Then the NPCs are already responding, and I'm not able to interpret those responses properly unless I know what my character's mental state was going in.

Interpret the NPC responses, or come up with your PC's interpretation of the NPC responses?

[Blacklash93]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

DA2 definitely looks like a step back after ME2 from what we can see so far in terms of presentation.

The ME games had just about the worst conversations I can imagine, so stepping "back" from that would be quite a feat.

I'd like to hear what you'd have to say about Origins, then.

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...

Terrible to you. Personally, I love the fact that we have a voiced protagonist. It brings the game to life for me. I'm perfectly fine with paraphrasing becuase it's part of how the VO character works. I think these are purely positive additions to the franchise I love, and I know that there are tons of people who agree with me. That's not to say that you're alone in your opinions, but just because you think they're terrible doesn't make them so.

You now have far less freedom to design your character.

JrayM16 wrote...

Regardless of whether it's caused by mirror neurons(which it was) or magic, it happened.  Empathy exists because I did something to make someone else happy.  It's the same thing as that taste exists ebcause I put something in my mouth and had a reaction. 

You seem under the false impression that empathy is some kind of supernatural connection.  No, it's just feeling emotions that correspond to those of others because of what happens to others, which totally exists.

If that's all empathy is, then I'll concede its existence.  But that definition also renders it useless as a gameplay tool, as its not universal.

And that for me, was a successful conversation. 

[AlanC9]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Is anyone else a disappointed from what we've seen from the dialogue scenes? Not full-on cinematics, but your typical interactive conversations.

Characters standing stiffly in place with their arms at their sides and looking robotic when they actually do move. The same blank expression on their face until they start talking. The scene with the Rock Wraith in the new footage is a good example of this. The only character that moves around is the Wraith and once it approaches Hawke, it turns robotically like some primitive drone repositioning it's viewing angle. And then there's Hawke's punch which animates rather clunky when compared to Shepard's.

DA2 definitely looks like a step back after ME2 from what we can see so far in terms of presentation.

(Had to repost this.)

I'm not sure this is a bad thing. Less animation means less zots per conversation, and my main worry about adopting the ME system was that it would mean a lot less total dialogue, both because of VO expense and because of all the digital acting .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

It's too late then, though.  Then the NPCs are already responding, and I'm not able to interpret those responses properly unless I know what my character's mental state was going in.

Interpret the NPC responses, or come up with your PC's interpretation of the NPC responses?

The latter.  The former doesn't matter within the game.

Blacklash93 wrote...

I'd like to hear what you'd have to say about Origins, then.

DAO had a good conversation system.  The only downside was the cinematic presentation that acted as a filter between the player's perception and his character's perception.  The depth of field effects in particular were problematic.  I think it would have been improved by dropping the conversation interface entirely, leaving the camera were it was when the conversation started, and putting all the dialogue in a text box.

[Blakes 7]

Will there be a key for the different emotion icons so that we can quickly look them up if we are confused as to what they mean. Either in-game or in the manual or something;



Here's a scenario:



You know how you get those conversations after battle...click on a conversation option you thought was something...then opps, have to load back before the battle - to play out the same conversation again



Will we please have auto-saves before conversations so annoying situations can go away...pretty please (I know icons are supposed to prevent this, but if I can't interpret them clearly it may well lead to the same result)

[Sylvius the Mad]

Blakes 7 wrote...

Will we please have auto-saves before conversations so annoying situations can go away...pretty please (I know icons are supposed to prevent this, but if I can't interpret them clearly it may well lead to the same result)

I'd love to have autosaves before conversations.  I've previously asked for autosaves before cutscenes, but having before conversations would be equally valuable.

Ideally there will be both.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 février 2011 - 01:48 .

[Erika T]

The RustMonster wrote...



Terrible to you. Personally, I love the fact that we have a voiced protagonist. It brings the game to life for me. I'm perfectly fine with paraphrasing becuase it's part of how the VO character works. I think these are purely positive additions to the franchise I love, and I know that there are tons of people who agree with me. That's not to say that you're alone in your opinions, but just because you think they're terrible doesn't make them so.

And what if the voice YOUR character uses sounds nothing like you want it to sound?  Forget the words.  What if the tone just feels wrong?  To start with, I would imagine that a rogue hawke would have a different voice than a mage hawke or a warrior hawke.  And thats just the classes, then comes your personal preference.  Do you want a soft spoken hawke?  an agressively sounding one?  a loud one? a matter-of-fact one?  a high pitched voice?  a low, murmuring voice?  

What I am saying is that by voicing it, they take away MY character.  Its not my character anymore, that's what I hated in Shepard.  And then they take away my WORDs too, because I dont know what I will be saying.  This is not role playing for me.  

[JrayM16]

Erika T wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...



Terrible to you. Personally, I love the fact that we have a voiced protagonist. It brings the game to life for me. I'm perfectly fine with paraphrasing becuase it's part of how the VO character works. I think these are purely positive additions to the franchise I love, and I know that there are tons of people who agree with me. That's not to say that you're alone in your opinions, but just because you think they're terrible doesn't make them so.

And what if the voice YOUR character uses sounds nothing like you want it to sound?  Forget the words.  What if the tone just feels wrong?  To start with, I would imagine that a rogue hawke would have a different voice than a mage hawke or a warrior hawke.  And thats just the classes, then comes your personal preference.  Do you want a soft spoken hawke?  an agressively sounding one?  a loud one? a matter-of-fact one?  a high pitched voice?  a low, murmuring voice?  

What I am saying is that by voicing it, they take away MY character.  Its not my character anymore, that's what I hated in Shepard.  And then they take away my WORDs too, because I dont know what I will be saying.  This is not role playing for me.  

And this is where I agree with you in principle, but never found it to be the case.  That would suck if it weren't my character.  But I eventually projected myself onto Shepard and Shepard onto me.  He wasn't supposed to be me, nor I him.  But there ws a connection that caused me to not have any of the issues you did.  Though it would suck if I hadn't connected though.

[Erika T]

Jray, I guess we just have different experiences in this one then. I'm glad you didnt feel like I did, and i hope I wont feel like that with DA2 because that would totally break my heart - DA is my favourite game ever (ever ever)



Not sure if you played a lady shepard. Maybe the male shepard is more relatable? The female shepard voice is just wrong and the whole character seems pre-made, i cannot personalise it. The female shepard is this flippant tough cookie with every dialogue option that I just cannot relate to no matter hard I try. I wanted a soft spoken, quiet, but strong and powerful inside kind of shepard and I couldnt create her because of the silly wheel and the silly voice. (In DAO, I can have it and more - that's why I have about 30 characters!)It totally ruined all relationships for me - including romance, and I play the RPGs for the dialogues and the relationships mainly.

[JrayM16]

Erika T wrote...

Jray, I guess we just have different experiences in this one then. I'm glad you didnt feel like I did, and i hope I wont feel like that with DA2 because that would totally break my heart - DA is my favourite game ever (ever ever)

Not sure if you played a lady shepard. Maybe the male shepard is more relatable? The female shepard voice is just wrong and the whole character seems pre-made, i cannot personalise it. The female shepard is this flippant tough cookie with every dialogue option that I just cannot relate to no matter hard I try. I wanted a soft spoken, quiet, but strong and powerful inside kind of shepard and I couldnt create her because of the silly wheel and the silly voice. (In DAO, I can have it and more - that's why I have about 30 characters!)It totally ruined all relationships for me - including romance, and I play the RPGs for the dialogues and the relationships mainly.

I played both, they both seemed fine to me.   But yeah, it is too bad you got that experience and I sincerely hope you enjoy DA2 more than ME. 

[TheRevanchist]

Erika T wrote...

Jray, I guess we just have different experiences in this one then. I'm glad you didnt feel like I did, and i hope I wont feel like that with DA2 because that would totally break my heart - DA is my favourite game ever (ever ever)

Not sure if you played a lady shepard. Maybe the male shepard is more relatable? The female shepard voice is just wrong and the whole character seems pre-made, i cannot personalise it. The female shepard is this flippant tough cookie with every dialogue option that I just cannot relate to no matter hard I try. I wanted a soft spoken, quiet, but strong and powerful inside kind of shepard and I couldnt create her because of the silly wheel and the silly voice. (In DAO, I can have it and more - that's why I have about 30 characters!)It totally ruined all relationships for me - including romance, and I play the RPGs for the dialogues and the relationships mainly.

Really it just comes down to expectations and preferences. I don't ever RP my characters as "HEY THATS ME IN A GAME!" I play them as their own person and I'm like Obi-Wan helping Luke along the way. I create a personality and a general attiude around the games built in limitations. I never expect to get EXACTLY what I want because thats just not realistic to me and it just results in disapointment for everyone involved. So instead I create what I want useing what really exists and go with it. They are not me...I am not them...they are themselves and I am simply guideing them on their journey like Obi-Wan.

Doing this I enjoy Bioware's games more then any other game I've ever played. I beat ME1 well over 40 times...ME2 probably over 20 times...DAO probably also over 20 times. KOTOR about 10-15 times. Jade Empire about 20-25 times. Despite all of this...useing the way I play...I enjoyed the experience every single time. And out of all of this? ME is the one I can play without getting bored. Every other game I burned out and had to take a break...But Mass Effect? when I first bought that game the first 25 playthroughs were all back to back without playing anything else. In fact I had to FORCE myself to stop playing that game. To this day it's the one game I never burn out on.

Modifié par kylecouch, 09 février 2011 - 08:26 .

[seif9]

JrayM16 wrote...

Erika T wrote...

The RustMonster wrote...



Terrible to you. Personally, I love the fact that we have a voiced protagonist. It brings the game to life for me. I'm perfectly fine with paraphrasing becuase it's part of how the VO character works. I think these are purely positive additions to the franchise I love, and I know that there are tons of people who agree with me. That's not to say that you're alone in your opinions, but just because you think they're terrible doesn't make them so.

And what if the voice YOUR character uses sounds nothing like you want it to sound?  Forget the words.  What if the tone just feels wrong?  To start with, I would imagine that a rogue hawke would have a different voice than a mage hawke or a warrior hawke.  And thats just the classes, then comes your personal preference.  Do you want a soft spoken hawke?  an agressively sounding one?  a loud one? a matter-of-fact one?  a high pitched voice?  a low, murmuring voice?  

What I am saying is that by voicing it, they take away MY character.  Its not my character anymore, that's what I hated in Shepard.  And then they take away my WORDs too, because I dont know what I will be saying.  This is not role playing for me.  

And this is where I agree with you in principle, but never found it to be the case.  That would suck if it weren't my character.  But I eventually projected myself onto Shepard and Shepard onto me.  He wasn't supposed to be me, nor I him.  But there ws a connection that caused me to not have any of the issues you did.  Though it would suck if I hadn't connected though.

I completely agree with you on this. Although the character might not be fully yours in every way you still get that connection and feel like you are playing your own character

Modifié par seif9, 09 février 2011 - 08:19 .