299 réponses à ce sujet

[KawaiiKatie]

Ndutz wrote...



From top to bottom:
Diplomatic
Sarcastic
Agressive/Assertive

Ooof, I hope the DA2 wheel a bit more thought-out than that.... I really didn't like how, in ME2, I didn't even have to look at the dialogue choices. All I had to do was click the last option, because it always "evil" and let me rack up those Renegade points. Completely took the sport out of it....

Then again, DA2 isn't supposed to have Player Character "morality".... so maybe I won't have to worry about it?

[Veex]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I just don't understand how you guys actually think it's going to work.  I have no idea how we're supposed to be able to work out what the lines say based on the paraphrases.

You're not supposed to try and decipher the line from a paraphase, you're supposed to understand the tone and intent. If I tell you I hate you in a sarcastic tone, it certainly converys something different than what the line actually says, no?

[Killroyomega]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Killroyomega wrote...

I hated how hard it was to differentiate between the 'informational' repsonses and the responses that moved the dialogue forward in Origins.

Whereas, I liked that, because that struck me as a more realistic representation of how conversation works.  It worked more like actually talking to someone and less like navigating a puzzle.

That's perfectly fine for a real conversation, but in a game where if you go past a certain point in the dialogue you completely lose access to certain actions it was not a good thing.

I had quite a few times where I wanted to ask a few questions only to completely miss the chance to use the persuade and intimidate options.

[Falls Edge]

That mask is very appropriate, because that's kind of how the warden acted in the first game, he acted largely the way people expected him to within a certain capacity, except for the rare moment when you could make a hilariously short-sighted decision.

Actually now that I look at the dialogue screen again, isn't that kind of weird? I mean your sister and father were apostates why would your character fear the demon's/spirits? Did they never talk about it?

Modifié par Falls Edge, 02 février 2011 - 12:41 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Have you considered the possibility that your brain processes and interprets human interaction in an unusual or atypical way?

I process human interaction in a demonstrably reasonable way.

If there's some other way to do it, I want to know what it is.  Someone needs to provide an algorithm, or a cipher, that anyone could use to figure out what the paraphrases mean.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Veex wrote...

You're not supposed to try and decipher the line from a paraphase, you're supposed to understand the tone and intent. If I tell you I hate you in a sarcastic tone, it certainly converys something different than what the line actually says, no?

What about content?  The content of the line matters, because Hawke might have a specific desire to convey or conceal a particular piece of information.  Will we be able to tell whether he'll do that?

And I still worry about being tied to a specific delivery.  In DAO, I could refuse to answer a question, but I didn't necessarily have to do that aggressively.  In DA2 I might, depending what the tone icon says.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I process human interaction in a demonstrably reasonable way.

And what if that's atypical?

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If there's some other way to do it, I want to know what it is.

I assume you are talking about the concepts the dialogue wheel attempts to convey, namely that of tone and the intent of the line as opposed to its literal content.

I suppose I can describe the alternative thusly:  By feeling it, based on experience and observation.  In the most basic and limited - and possibly ultimately inaccurate but it's the best I can do - sense, it's empiricism.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 12:51 .

[Ndutz]

Well i guess Hawke is not the blank piece of paper that the Warden is.

The dialog system now would make it more akin to watching an interactive movie, Heavy Rain comes to mind. Though that might be an exagaration.

[Maria Caliban]

Veex wrote...

If I tell you I hate you in a sarcastic tone, it certainly converys something different than what the line actually says, no?

If you tell someone you hate them in a sarcastic tone, the intent it's no different than saying you hate them in a sincere tone. Now, if you tell someone you *like* them in a sarcastic tone, your intent and what you say are quite different.

[Blacklash93]

Hopefully there are things like "(Kill)" or "(Hit)" or "(Attack)" at the end of lines like in Origins to inform the player how far the aggressive options are going to go.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 02 février 2011 - 01:31 .

[David Gaider]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Ooof, I hope the DA2 wheel a bit more thought-out than that.... I really didn't like how, in ME2, I didn't even have to look at the dialogue choices. All I had to do was click the last option, because it always "evil" and let me rack up those Renegade points. Completely took the sport out of it....

Then again, DA2 isn't supposed to have Player Character "morality".... so maybe I won't have to worry about it?

There are no "morality points" to rack up, no.

The hub you're looking at in the picture is what we call a "personality hub". You get your three basic options, typically, which the game tracks to determine the sort of personality you use most often-- then, in cases when we have the "decision hub" and the options are presented absent tone it (sometimes) presents the line in your dominant tone (so each option like that will have three possible lines in terms of what you actually say, though the intent is still the same in all three). Other options, and investigate lines, are always in a neutral tone only.

The dominant personality will also change your soundset lines in battle, and sometimes will bring up "bonus" options on the wheel.

It should be noted that there aren't always simply three options on the wheel. You can have an investigate hub (accessible on the left hand of the wheel, as in ME), and on the decision hubs you can have up to five options in addition to the investigate (which itself leads to up to five questions).

Ultimately this is the same as in DAO-- where we had six possible options in the list, with investigates taking up those slots along with your other choices. If you look at the DAO options you'll generally find we did it exactly the same way: three basic varieties of dialogue options when "how you say it" was the goal and a variety of "how you do it" when an actual action was being contemplated.

In this case the icons (such as the three personality choices, as well as icons for "combat", "lie", "flirt", etc) are there to help indicate intent-- meaning we can limit the paraphrase to indicate meaning more than tone (making it less blatant than would otherwise be necessary). As John mentioned, one's personal mileage on this is going to vary, as there are trade-offs no matter which style you choose.

[Tinxa]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Ndutz wrote...



From top to bottom:
Diplomatic
Sarcastic
Agressive/Assertive

Ooof, I hope the DA2 wheel a bit more thought-out than that.... I really didn't like how, in ME2, I didn't even have to look at the dialogue choices. All I had to do was click the last option, because it always "evil" and let me rack up those Renegade points. Completely took the sport out of it....

Then again, DA2 isn't supposed to have Player Character "morality".... so maybe I won't have to worry about it?

I worry about that too. In DAO I read every line and decided what I wanted to say but in DA2 I'm afraid I'll just keep clicking the middle one because I want my char to be sarcastic.

I'd really like to see the wheel in action. These screenshots with only 3 options we've seen so far really don't tell us much.

[drahelvete]

What about persuasion options? Will there still be a Coercion skill in DA2?

[Maconbar]

Tinxa wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Ndutz wrote...



From top to bottom:
Diplomatic
Sarcastic
Agressive/Assertive

Ooof, I hope the DA2 wheel a bit more thought-out than that.... I really didn't like how, in ME2, I didn't even have to look at the dialogue choices. All I had to do was click the last option, because it always "evil" and let me rack up those Renegade points. Completely took the sport out of it....

Then again, DA2 isn't supposed to have Player Character "morality".... so maybe I won't have to worry about it?

I worry about that too. In DAO I read every line and decided what I wanted to say but in DA2 I'm afraid I'll just keep clicking the middle one because I want my char to be sarcastic.

I'd really like to see the wheel in action. These screenshots with only 3 options we've seen so far really don't tell us much.

If you want your character to be generally sarcastic, I would think that the tone icon indicating sarcasm would be a good thing.

[MondaiSenshi]

Falls Edge wrote...

That mask is very appropriate, because that's kind of how the warden acted in the first game, he acted largely the way people expected him to within a certain capacity, except for the rare moment when you could make a hilariously short-sighted decision.

Actually now that I look at the dialogue screen again, isn't that kind of weird? I mean your sister and father were apostates why would your character fear the demon's/spirits? Did they never talk about it?

The way I see it, they live outside of Ferelden, right? In the Free Marches? They're clearly not beyond the reach of the law, but it seems a bit more wild out there, a bit easier for apostates to hide. Anyway.

Just because they're apostates doesn't mean they're maleficarum. I mean, look back to Aneirin, Wynne's old apprentice. He wasn't a maleficar. He just didn't want to live in the tower. And, okay, Anders isn't the best example, but he's not out summoning fade demons willy-nilly, either. It's quite likely that the Tower exaggerates the likeliness of becoming an abomination, but it does happen. Using magic can still be dangerous, especially summoning spirits. So, informed or otherwise, I think Hawke has plenty of reason to be weary of (I'm guessing) her sister summoning something.

... But to keep this on-track, yes, the main issue I had with the MassEff dialogue wheels was when I read a line with one tone and it came out completely different. I can't think of the proper exact quote, but I think there was a time when I read an option as completely serious and even compassionate, then when Shepard paraphrased she was snarky and sarcastic, and I kinda wanted to punch her in the face. Which, the intent icon should fix, or at least lessen.

But I also preffered the unvoiced Warden, if only because I couldn't always find a voice that quite matched my character description, and with a lot of my dialogue choices I would completely disregard the words and go for the basic meaning - as with my Dwarf, who was crude and aggressive, but sometimes wanted to express more sentimental or kinder thoughts in her own gruff tone. Thus I would choose "I'm sorry, Alistair, I had to" over "Don't second-guess me!" when in my head her words would have been more like "I did what I can, what do you want from me?" or similar.

THUS, my final pre-release ruling is this: Bioware has found an acceptable compromise. I can work with this.

[Hero11N7]

David Gaider wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
Ooof, I hope the DA2 wheel a bit more thought-out than that.... I really didn't like how, in ME2, I didn't even have to look at the dialogue choices. All I had to do was click the last option, because it always "evil" and let me rack up those Renegade points. Completely took the sport out of it....

Then again, DA2 isn't supposed to have Player Character "morality".... so maybe I won't have to worry about it?

There are no "morality points" to rack up, no.

The hub you're looking at in the picture is what we call a "personality hub". You get your three basic options, typically, which the game tracks to determine the sort of personality you use most often-- then, in cases when we have the "decision hub" and the options are presented absent tone it (sometimes) presents the line in your dominant tone (so each option like that will have three possible lines in terms of what you actually say, though the intent is still the same in all three). Other options, and investigate lines, are always in a neutral tone only.


The dominant personality will also change your soundset lines in battle, and sometimes will bring up "bonus" options on the wheel.

It should be noted that there aren't always simply three options on the wheel. You can have an investigate hub (accessible on the left hand of the wheel, as in ME), and on the decision hubs you can have up to five options in addition to the investigate (which itself leads to up to five questions).

Ultimately this is the same as in DAO-- where we had six possible options in the list, with investigates taking up those slots along with your other choices. If you look at the DAO options you'll generally find we did it exactly the same way: three basic varieties of dialogue options when "how you say it" was the goal and a variety of "how you do it" when an actual action was being contemplated.

In this case the icons (such as the three personality choices, as well as icons for "combat", "lie", "flirt", etc) are there to help indicate intent-- meaning we can limit the paraphrase to indicate meaning more than tone (making it less blatant than would otherwise be necessary). As John mentioned, one's personal mileage on this is going to vary, as there are trade-offs no matter which style you choose.

Interesting. It definitely sounds like a awesome idea. Looks like I'm going to choose diplomatic alot

[Pazifist.PT]

[/quote]

There are no "morality points" to rack up, no.

The hub you're looking at in the picture is what we call a "personality hub". You get your three basic options, typically, which the game tracks to determine the sort of personality you use most often-- then, in cases when we have the "decision hub" and the options are presented absent tone it (sometimes) presents the line in your dominant tone (so each option like that will have three possible lines in terms of what you actually say, though the intent is still the same in all three). Other options, and investigate lines, are always in a neutral tone only.

[/quote]

That just took out the fear of the dialog system being like ME2 from me, nice

[Tinxa]

Maconbar wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

Ndutz wrote...



From top to bottom:
Diplomatic
Sarcastic
Agressive/Assertive

Ooof, I hope the DA2 wheel a bit more thought-out than that.... I really didn't like how, in ME2, I didn't even have to look at the dialogue choices. All I had to do was click the last option, because it always "evil" and let me rack up those Renegade points. Completely took the sport out of it....

Then again, DA2 isn't supposed to have Player Character "morality".... so maybe I won't have to worry about it?

I worry about that too. In DAO I read every line and decided what I wanted to say but in DA2 I'm afraid I'll just keep clicking the middle one because I want my char to be sarcastic.

I'd really like to see the wheel in action. These screenshots with only 3 options we've seen so far really don't tell us much.

If you want your character to be generally sarcastic, I would think that the tone icon indicating sarcasm would be a good thing.

Yes, but I'm afraid that instead of keeping with the "My char likes spirits and it would be more appropriate to say the first line" I'll be thinking "I better pick the middle one anyway so I don't accidentaly change the overall tone of my char since I already picked the first option in the last conversation".

[upsettingshorts]

Tinxa wrote...

Yes, but I'm afraid that instead of keeping with the "My char likes spirits and it would be more appropriate to say the first line" I'll be thinking "I better pick the middle one anyway so I don't accidentaly change the overall tone of my char since I already picked the first option in the last conversation".

I don't think you'll be able to "break" it in that way.

If you pick sarcastic 5 times, and diplomatic 3 times, and angry twice. You're still going to be flagged as generally sarcastic.  I'm guessing, though.

Basically if you go in planning to use sarcasm whenever appropriate, you will - on balance - end up a sarcastic character.  It doesn't, or shouldnt, prevent you from being angry or diplomatic when the situation calls for it.

Personally I'm going to try to play my character and let the tracking/personality monitoring happen in the background.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 février 2011 - 01:39 .

[drahelvete]

Filament wrote...

I have to wonder how I diplomatically tell someone I'm going to cut them to pieces.

"Would you please surrender, lest I cut you to pieces?"

Modifié par drahelvete, 02 février 2011 - 01:43 .

[Tinxa]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Tinxa wrote...

Yes, but I'm afraid that instead of keeping with the "My char likes spirits and it would be more appropriate to say the first line" I'll be thinking "I better pick the middle one anyway so I don't accidentaly change the overall tone of my char since I already picked the first option in the last conversation".

I don't think you'll be able to "break" it in that way.

If you pick sarcastic 5 times, and diplomatic 3 times, and angry twice. You're still going to be flagged as generally sarcastic.  I'm guessing, though.

Yes, but who's gonna keep count I won't be sure if I've chosen sarcastic 5 or 6 times and diplomatic 5 times and if one more is going to change the tone. Unless you can see it somwhere which tone is currently prevailing.

[KawaiiKatie]

David Gaider wrote...
The hub you're looking at in the picture is what we call a "personality hub". You get your three basic options, typically, which the game tracks to determine the sort of personality you use most often-- then, in cases when we have the "decision hub" and the options are presented absent tone it (sometimes) presents the line in your dominant tone (so each option like that will have three possible lines in terms of what you actually say, though the intent is still the same in all three). Other options, and investigate lines, are always in a neutral tone only.

The dominant personality will also change your soundset lines in battle, and sometimes will bring up "bonus" options on the wheel.

Really? I did not know that! That sounds incredibly cool! Okay, now I'm excited for this dialogue wheel, because it sounds significantly better than the Mass Effect wheel.

Thanks for the all the great info! That really cleared some things up! (For me, at least.)

[Chansel]

Ah, yes. Thanks for giving some more info on the matter.

I was already pretty excited about the dialog wheel, because I thought the intent icons would be a nice addition to make it work better than in ME. But now that that’s it’s clear that the way Hawke talks in battle and decision hubs can be changed to match the personality you’re playing.. That’s just epic.



Thank you, Bioware!