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#201
JrayM16

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Well, when I first saw the paraphrase + icon, I interpretted it as cautiously sardonic.  The paraphrase indicates that the character is skeptical about the thing's intentions due to fighting demons who might be this things minions on the way inside. 

The quotes around "without need" show that Hawke is questioning of something the thing just said because the quotess are used to identify that Hawke is quoting the thing in the paraphrase, especially since "without need" were the last words out of the things mouth when that wheel comes up. 

And finally, the icon.  A smiling mask.  It's a call back to ancient Greek theatre.  A smiling mask is often coupled with a frowning mask as symbols of theatrics.  The smiling mask usually represents comedy and the frowning mask tragedy, the two predominant forms of Greek theatre at the time.  The smiling mask icon is comedy, which represents that Hawke will say something mildly witty. 

So, to sum up my quick interpretation before I saw the response, the paraphrase overall indicated questioning the thing's previous words based on immediately prior experience and doing so in a mildly witty way.  It appeared that the personality assigned to the Demo's Hawke from previous dialogue choices ended up making the witty option more evasive and sarcastic than straight-up funny.

And that's pretty much how the line turned out.

But he never actually does the thing the paraphrase says he's going to do, which is seek clarification.


Ah, but he does.  He seeks clarification not by questioning, but by challenging(I should have phrased my post more clearly, ironic, isn't it.)  It's the difference between two methods of trying to provoke information out of people:

1. I could directly ask for more information on what someone is saying.

2. I could present potentially contradictory evidence or directly question the other person's statement's truth in an attempt to provoke more information.

Hawke applies the latter of these two methods in the demo.  He re-introduces the urgency of the situation to the conversation and questions the creature's vague statement that the creature truly intends not to harm him based on the fact that Hawke had just been attacked by demons.

The use of the word "define" and the quotes in the paraphrase imply a challenging nature, especially coupled with the "humor" icon and context of the conversation itself.

Hawke is stuck in the Deep Roads fighting demons, he's probably not going to be slyly humorous, more challengingly sardonic.   "Define" indicates a challenge, it's simply a word more often associated with aggression when used on a phrase rather than a word.  A word has set meanings, phrases rely on the orininator for meaning.  Then the quoted piece of the demon's dialogue is what Hawke is challening with 'Define."

Well, that's how I saw it anyway.

#202
Erika T

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Fair enough, it looks like many people are disagreeing with me. I accept that some people like the wheel idea. I still don't.



Let me just say that you could not have given Shephards responses any thought - as they were like "yes" and "no" and "cut it off Miranda" :) Hated it all. And a lot of people I spoke to did too. I think the wheel-kind of dialogue suits a certain kind of player - one that rushes through dialogues and prefers combat or dungeon crawling which is perfectly fine. The other kind of player like myself, who likes to explore the lore and properly create a RPG character by giving much consideration to responses, will probably hate it. But as i said fair enough, it does look like the wheel has some support here.



And believe me when I say, I would be the happiest person if I could come here on the 12th of March and say - "Guys, I was totally wrong. The game is still enjoyable and the wheel was the right decision". Seriously.

#203
AlanC9

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Erika T wrote...
Wouldn't you rather sacrifice voice for being able to say WHAT you want?  Witht he wheel, you will not know.  The character will not be your own.  Have you never tutted indignanty at your Shepard saying something that you SO did not mean? :)


No, I haven't.

#204
Ziggeh

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I suspect we've all been through this conversation before, but at this point I feel obliged to add: The full text system is prone to similar flaws if you approach it as attempting to convey information that is more important than the literal wording.

Only if you judge your success by the reaction of the NPCs, which is an approach to conversation I just don't understand.

It's how I talk, when I say something, I want them to understand the concept I'm attempting to convey. The actual words I use to do this aren't usually important. If they don't understand, it's a failure of communication.

#205
Sylvius the Mad

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Ziggeh wrote...

How would you not enforce without providing an array of humourous options?

Throughout the game, that's exactly what you do.

In each instance, though, you just have to make it clear to the player what sort of humour this particular attempt at humour will be, and then the player can choose it or not based on how well it suits his character.

#206
JrayM16

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Erika T wrote...

Fair enough, it looks like many people are disagreeing with me. I accept that some people like the wheel idea. I still don't.

Let me just say that you could not have given Shephards responses any thought - as they were like "yes" and "no" and "cut it off Miranda" :) Hated it all. And a lot of people I spoke to did too. I think the wheel-kind of dialogue suits a certain kind of player - one that rushes through dialogues and prefers combat or dungeon crawling which is perfectly fine. The other kind of player like myself, who likes to explore the lore and properly create a RPG character by giving much consideration to responses, will probably hate it. But as i said fair enough, it does look like the wheel has some support here.

And believe me when I say, I would be the happiest person if I could come here on the 12th of March and say - "Guys, I was totally wrong. The game is still enjoyable and the wheel was the right decision". Seriously.


And I can totally sympathize with that.  I can see people having trouble with the wheel, I just don't.  And I did give due thought to the paraphrases and with maybe one or two exceptions, I was exactly right on the intent, if not the literal line. 

#207
Ziggeh

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Erika T wrote...
I think the wheel-kind of dialogue suits a certain kind of player - one that rushes through dialogues and prefers combat or dungeon crawling which is perfectly fine. The other kind of player like myself, who likes to explore the lore and properly create a RPG character by giving much consideration to responses, will probably hate it

Those really aren't the only two groups. By some stretch.

Spend some time in such threads, you'll find more approachs here than you probably thought possible.

#208
BeardedNinja

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Look, I'm sorry people hate the way the dialog is handled in this game, and quite frankly no, I never had much trouble at all the the wheel from ME at all. You get good, neutral, bad choices on one side and exploratory stuff on the other, simple. And DA:O's system I found overly cluttered w/ over 5 choices that weren't plain, what if I didnt want to stab that guy. So now we get the best of both worlds w/ intent icons, something I hope crosses over into ME3. Really there's no use complaining about it because thats the way the game is going to be, but its you right so have at fun complaing about not understanding sarcasm :)

#209
Erika T

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AlanC9 wrote...

Erika T wrote...
Wouldn't you rather sacrifice voice for being able to say WHAT you want?  Witht he wheel, you will not know.  The character will not be your own.  Have you never tutted indignanty at your Shepard saying something that you SO did not mean? :)


No, I haven't.


Why do I suddenly feel the need to put in ME2 and come up with a dozen examples? :)  the only one I can remember was something around romancing Jacob (but there were much more) the wheel saying something like "I like you too", and Shepard saying something like "You're cool Jacob. We should get it on" or something like that.  Well that's not what I want to say!  I wanted to say "That's very sweet Jacob.  I feel the same".  Does it make sense at all?  Like in DAO, where you can have 3 "I like you too" romance lines, but each different.  

#210
JrayM16

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

I suspect we've all been through this conversation before, but at this point I feel obliged to add: The full text system is prone to similar flaws if you approach it as attempting to convey information that is more important than the literal wording.

Only if you judge your success by the reaction of the NPCs, which is an approach to conversation I just don't understand.


How would you judge your success in a conversation, both in-game and in-real life?  Just curious.

#211
Ziggeh

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

How would you not enforce without providing an array of humourous options?

Throughout the game, that's exactly what you do.

In each instance, though, you just have to make it clear to the player what sort of humour this particular attempt at humour will be, and then the player can choose it or not based on how well it suits his character.

That wouldn't be a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, but it would be a bit odd if that screen had one diplomatic option, 1 aggressive option and 6 humorous ones.

#212
Erika T

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BeardedNinja wrote...

Look, I'm sorry people hate the way the dialog is handled in this game, and quite frankly no, I never had much trouble at all the the wheel from ME at all. You get good, neutral, bad choices on one side and exploratory stuff on the other, simple. And DA:O's system I found overly cluttered w/ over 5 choices that weren't plain, what if I didnt want to stab that guy. So now we get the best of both worlds w/ intent icons, something I hope crosses over into ME3. Really there's no use complaining about it because thats the way the game is going to be, but its you right so have at fun complaing about not understanding sarcasm :)


erm.. sorry, i thought this was a forum?  you know, a place for people to express their opinions and listen to others'? :huh:

I think the ME wheel is for people who dont want to think and give it real thought, they just want to go and shoot or combat etc.  which is perfectly fine, and it looks like these people are a majority, and I said I accept that people like it, so to quote my female noble warden, can I get you a ladder...??


#213
Taleroth

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I can understand where you're coming from. I felt that way a long while back. But I got comfortable with them by just seeing the game as more of me watching someone else's character and picking what kind of character I wanted to see, not what response I wanted.



It still ended up with Tali thinking my Shepard was leading her on when he was just trying to be nice, though. So it's imperfect.



Like I said, I do prefer it the other way around, but I've found approaching it this way not entirely unpleasant.

#214
Morroian

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Erika T wrote...

Let me just say that you could not have given Shephards responses any thought - as they were like "yes" and "no" and "cut it off Miranda" :) Hated it all.

But thats a fault of the implementation. The wheel doesn't have to be like that and the DAO writers are better than the ME writers.

#215
Sylvius the Mad

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JrayM16 wrote...

Ah, but he does.  He seeks clarification not by questioning, but by challenging(I should have phrased my post more clearly, ironic, isn't it.)

But he's not challenging anything.  He makes an assertion.  If I were speaking to him I'd probably ignore his assertion, because its a non sequiter.  It doesn't even make any sense.

It's the difference between two methods of trying to provoke information out of people:

Which we're going to use needs to be made clear to avoid us acting out of character by accident.

1. I could directly ask for more information on what someone is saying.

2. I could present potentially contradictory evidence or directly question the other person's statement's truth in an attempt to provoke more information.

Hawke applies the latter of these two methods in the demo.  He re-introduces the urgency of the situation to the conversation and questions the creature's vague statement that the creature truly intends not to harm him based on the fact that Hawke had just been attacked by demons.

The use of the word "define" and the quotes in the paraphrase imply a challenging nature, especially coupled with the "humor" icon and context of the conversation itself.

That's impossible vague.  There's no way you could have come up with this in advance of seeing the resulting line.

Hawke is stuck in the Deep Roads fighting demons, he's probably not going to be slyly humorous, more challengingly sardonic.

The player should always be the one to decide that.

 "Define" indicates a challenge

No, it indicates a definition.

Well, that's how I saw it anyway.

And I saw it differently.  Which of us was right?  How could we have determined which of us was right prior to seeing the spoken line?

#216
Erika T

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JrayM16 wrote...


And I can totally sympathize with that.  I can see people having trouble with the wheel, I just don't.  And I did give due thought to the paraphrases and with maybe one or two exceptions, I was exactly right on the intent, if not the literal line. 


where can I watch the video everyone's talking about?  please can you send me alink?  thanks in advance. :)

#217
Sylvius the Mad

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JrayM16 wrote...

How would you judge your success in a conversation, both in-game and in-real life?  Just curious.

Based on what it is I actually said.

Ziggeh wrote...

That wouldn't be a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination, but it would be a bit odd if that screen had one diplomatic option, 1 aggressive option and 6 humorous ones.

That's not what I said.

Each wheel hub might have only one humourous option, but each time the player needs to know whether that specific type of humour is compatible with his character's personality.

Throughout the whole game, there would be a wide variety of different types of humour, and the player could choose only those options which made sense for that particular Hawke.

#218
Sylvius the Mad

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Erika T wrote...

where can I watch the video everyone's talking about?  please can you send me alink?  thanks in advance. :)

http://social.biowar...1/index/5968764

#219
JrayM16

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Erika T wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...


And I can totally sympathize with that.  I can see people having trouble with the wheel, I just don't.  And I did give due thought to the paraphrases and with maybe one or two exceptions, I was exactly right on the intent, if not the literal line. 


where can I watch the video everyone's talking about?  please can you send me alink?  thanks in advance. :)


There's a sticky thread with a link in the OP.  Dragon Age Giant Bomb preview is the thread anme, or something like that.

#220
BeardedNinja

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Erika T wrote...

BeardedNinja wrote...

Look, I'm sorry people hate the way the dialog is handled in this game, and quite frankly no, I never had much trouble at all the the wheel from ME at all. You get good, neutral, bad choices on one side and exploratory stuff on the other, simple. And DA:O's system I found overly cluttered w/ over 5 choices that weren't plain, what if I didnt want to stab that guy. So now we get the best of both worlds w/ intent icons, something I hope crosses over into ME3. Really there's no use complaining about it because thats the way the game is going to be, but its you right so have at fun complaing about not understanding sarcasm :)


erm.. sorry, i thought this was a forum?  you know, a place for people to express their opinions and listen to others'? :huh:

I think the ME wheel is for people who dont want to think and give it real thought, they just want to go and shoot or combat etc.  which is perfectly fine, and it looks like these people are a majority, and I said I accept that people like it, so to quote my female noble warden, can I get you a ladder...??


this is a forum lol but when its about an already implemented game mechanic I just dont see the point, but again have at it, I'm still particapating arent I? lol
And so are you saying I dont like to think about my games because I like the wheel and just want to go shoot and stab things? 

#221
Erika T

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Thank you both.

#222
Ziggeh

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Throughout the whole game, there would be a wide variety of different types of humour, and the player could choose only those options which made sense for that particular Hawke.

They could do that in the current system. Text is the only way you're going to convey the nuances of something as complex as a sense of humour, though I concede you could have board catagories, like sarcasm, but again, the text can convey these reasonably well.

#223
Ziggeh

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Erika T wrote...
erm.. sorry, i thought this was a forum?  you know, a place for people to express their opinions and listen to others'? :huh:

I think the ME wheel is for people who dont want to think

Sorry, but "I'm free to express my opinion" isn't terribly solid grounds to attempt to belittle the opposing argument with ad hominem.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 08 février 2011 - 09:40 .


#224
Sylvius the Mad

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Ziggeh wrote...

They could do that in the current system. Text is the only way you're going to convey the nuances of something as complex as a sense of humour, though I concede you could have board catagories, like sarcasm, but again, the text can convey these reasonably well.

Allowing the player to have control over his character's behaviour should be their number one design goal.

Literally every other aspect of the game's design should be subservient to that.

#225
JrayM16

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@ Sylvius



The full analysis I gave was a post-mortem to my initial reaction. I did not setermine all that from the paraphrase, but got a general impression that corresponded to the line, and I analyzed why it did so using my knowledge of phonetics and syntax.



the "define" thing is a bit semantical, I'll give you that but studying modern English syntax has led to to the conclusion that "define" can be used in the sense I'm talking about.



Assertions and challenges aren't mutually exclusive. It's semantics and syntax again, the assertion is in opposition to the statement to test the waters for a challenge.



Neither of us is "right" though I guessed pretty much what the line turned out to be so I think there's something to be said for that.



Why would what you ahve said be a measure of conversation success? That would indicate that getting the words out of your mouth was the only purpose and goal of the conversation.



Here's a hypothetical scenario. You and your significant other are having an argument about something. At the end of the conversation, despite whatever you said, she is still angry and storms out of the house. Let's say you said everything you intended to say and it just didn't work out.



Would you think of this conversation a success?



What would you think of the conversation had something you said made her more angry or caused her to storm out?