200 réponses à ce sujet

[WilliamShatner]

David Gaider wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
You can keep telling youself that but it won't become true.

Example,  At the time Batman Forever was far more popular with the mainstream than Batman Returns at the expense of the "hardcore fans".  Now look at the franchise.

Time makes fools of us all.

Except me.  I've got time's number.

So... let's see. DAO was Batman Returns in this scenario? And DA2 is Batman Forever? We put nipples on the batsuit?

Sometimes fans can be myopic idiots. Sometimes creators can also be myopic idiots, but really... at the end of the day it's our risk to take, not yours.

No, I was referring to ME2.

I wouldn't judge DA2 as I haven't played it, but if you would kindly sent me a copy I'd be delighted to tell you what I thought of it!

[Monica83]

ok david but there are different manner to show changes.. You can't make a game that winks an eye to the oldschool rpg and then exit with a sequel with those word:"press a button and something awesome happens" or "think like a general fight like a spartan" or "Dragon effect" and then tell something like Stanley woo did.. Because this is jump from a hightower and hope that someone comes flying to save you..



Acting like this you create hate.. Look at the chaos happened with the fake annuced DA2 demo..

[DPB]

In Exile wrote...

Bioware was also never a niche company. They always aimed to get the greatest sales possible given the restrictions of what they worked under, but back when BG came out RPGs weren't niche (IMO that was reserved for genres like flight sims).

Even Bioware's early games were a more palatable version of many CRPGs released in the 80s and 90s. They had semi-real-time combat and actual characters (as opposed to creating your own party), elements that were decried by the so-called 'hardcore RPGers' at the time.

[upsettingshorts]

LdyShayna wrote...

Please.  It's because people are frustrated that the types of games they like - games that sold millions of copies and made BioWare a well known name in gaming - are suddenly not being made.  At all.  And apparently never again.  They are shifting to make entirely different types of games and it's utterly frustrating.  And the only , ONLY acceptable argument to make (as has been made clear repeatedly) is whether that will make them finacially successful or not, so OF COURSE people are going to focus on whether or not this is a wise move and and try to claim their position as the one that makes sense in pursuing for financial success.

I'm done, though.  Even if I do buy more of their games on a lark, it's clear that I'm part of an audience they are fine with leaving behind.  So...yeah.  Whatever.

I'd love for just one of these kinds of posts, one day, to acknowledge that there are members of the "old audience" that don't see a single thing Bioware has done yet as being "entirely different" at all.  Heck,  some of that old audience might even like it.  It's shocking to think of, I know.  But it is easier to blame the new people I suppose.

Personally I'd categorize the changes often described as "departures" as "evolution."  To features I like better.

Monica83 wrote...

Look at the chaos happened with the fake annuced DA2 demo..

Because I'm sure EA/Bioware planned to have the Scandinavian newsletter leak a hint that a demo existed that was not going to be publicly available for weeks just in time for the 2.1.11 deadline. 

Yeah, no.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 février 2011 - 04:03 .

[AlexXIV]

I more likely won't get over the fact that I may never play as an elf again.

[WilliamShatner]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Batman Forever and Batman and Robin were also terrible.
Batman Begins is wildly different than Batman Returns, yet both are commercial and critical successes.
It's like In Exile says, changing up the features doesn't kill a company. Making crap games does.
Some people are going to prefer DAO or even older games to DA2. Other people are goin to prefer DA2. As long as the latter number is greater than or equal to the former, then that's all Woo is saying. The fact that the former number may have people in it who go so far as to claim that, objectively, the changes made in DA2 make it a bad game, that's just the kind of egoism that's typical of the BSN.

The point is the Batman franchise died on its arse trying to pander to the mainstream and didn't revive itself until it went back to its hardcore roots. 

Batman Forever far outgrossed Batman Returns and got better reviews when intitially released but I can't tell you one person I know who prefers it now.

ME2 is instant gratification.  Yes a lot of people like it now but 10, 20 years from now the flaws will become more and more visible to more and more people and in the end the original will be held with much more high esteem.

History is filled with things popular and acclaimed upon release then restrospectively shown to be a case of the emperor's new clothes.

[Monica83]

the problem is also dragon age 2 is not that distinct from what we know...



Dialogue Wheel (mass effect)

Paraphrase Schematic system (mass effect)

Static companion outfit (mass effect)

Staticl classes and upgradable skills (mass effect)

Half predefined hero (mass effect)

And you keep sayng dragon age 2 will be distinct?

The graphic design is something already seen..

The animation already seen (Dinasty warrior)

So the question is in what dragon age 2 is distinct? For qunari horns? For class restriction?

[upsettingshorts]

WilliamShatner wrote...

The point is the Batman franchise died on its arse trying to pander to the mainstream and didn't revive itself until it went back to its hardcore roots. 

There is nothing "hardcore" about Mass Effect 1.

WilliamShatner wrote...

ME2 is instant gratification.  Yes a lot of people like it now but 10, 20 years from now the flaws will become more and more visible to more and more people and in the end the original will be held with much more high esteem.

I don't share your evaluation of Mass Effect 2 as a game, and I don't think it's perfect either, and I do think that certain aspects of it have the potential to be looked at, in hindsight, as less than good.  But these are likely different aspects than you are thinking of.

[Erinpedz]

LoL Ok I admit it, these threads keep making me laugh.. not just for the batman reference although I didn't mind Kilmer but Bale rocks...

I Loved DAO and I loved the warden, I wasn't that happy when I heard no more warden, but I have DA2 pre-ordered with high hopes, some of the changes I'm excited about - others I'll see how they go, but I'm always amazed at people already complaining about a game no one has played yet and are judging solely on small bits and peices that have been released. I can understand complaints afterward but before hand is a little preemptive.

I guess it's human nature or the fact we all loved the first one so much that people are panicked at the thought of it being ruined, but considering it's still in the same hands that made DAO I'm going to sit back and wait and see, after all its too late now for the devs to change everything that has people stressing.

[In Exile]

LdyShayna wrote...

Please.  It's because people are frustrated that the types of games they like - games that sold millions of copies and made BioWare a well known name in gaming - are suddenly not being made.  At all.  And apparently never again.  They are shifting to make entirely different types of games and it's utterly frustrating.

I can understand and appreciate this feeling, but it isn't clear at all that Bioware changed direction. To me, a fan since KoTOR (who has played every Bioware game beside MDK and that sonic game), Bioware has never stopped making the games that made them great.

Features like PC-VO are not central. Cinematic presentation, to me, is an innovation. The specific gameplay has varied a number of times since BG (with KoTOR, JE, Mass Effect, and now back to a similar scheme in DA:O & DA2).

And the only , ONLY acceptable argument to make (as has been made clear repeatedly) is whether that will make them finacially successful or not, so OF COURSE people are going to focus on whether or not this is a wise move and and try to claim their position as the one that makes sense in pursuing for financial success.

No. Bioware could as easily make the artistic argument that while they care about sales, in the end they have a particular kind of game in kind and a particular kind of vision of design and they are sticking to that.

I have never felt that Bioware changed their design policy; I feel that things like PC VO are the appropriate successor features to a dialogue tradition stretching back to BG.

In a nutshell, you might feel like Bioware stopped making the games you like, but I don't. And I'm arguably as hardcore a fan as you.

Beyond that, if you want to take credit for the success thus far - that is absolutely your right because you do deserve some credit. You bought the game. But that doesn't mean you're neccesary for future games to be succesful.

If Bioware started making Bestheda-like sandbox RPGs, they'd lose my patronage immediately. But that wouldn't mean they wouldn't make a killing.

I'm done, though.  Even if I do buy more of their games on a lark, it's clear that I'm part of an audience they are fine with leaving behind.  So...yeah.  Whatever.

Awesome. Whereas I'm apparently they audience they have catered to since KoTOR. So take the rightetous anger elsewhere.

[In Exile]

dbankier wrote...
Even Bioware's early games were a more palatable version of many CRPGs released in the 80s and 90s. They had semi-real-time combat and actual characters (as opposed to creating your own party), elements that were decried by the so-called 'hardcore RPGers' at the time.

I agree. The actual characters, IMO, and their departure from the 'create-your-party' tradition are precisely the innovations that make things like PC VO and cinematic presentation today rational developments from the initial approach in BG.

Greater storytelling, greater connection of the protagonist to the game world through fixed features of the character, integration of the PC to the main story through a personal hook... these are all things Bioware has taken and experimented since BG.

Some people happen to think just this one implementation was the best. That's fine. But that doesn't mean Bioware has changed their design stance, not yet.

Things like potentially adding multiplayer to ME3 and making TOR are real changes... because these are more dramatic departures from what Bioware did in the past, and even there you can find a 'Bioware signature' as to how they might approach these features.

WilliamShatner wrote...
The point is the Batman franchise
died on its arse trying to pander to the mainstream and didn't revive
itself until it went back to its hardcore roots. 

Batman
Forever far outgrossed Batman Returns and got better reviews
when intitially released but I can't tell you one person I know who
prefers it now.

Who cares? Batman Forever made more money and had more critical acclaim. No one speaks about these movies right now because they're 15 year old movies. Who the hell cares?

Batman & Robin was a piece of crap that killed the franchise. That's the movie you want to focus on.

History is filled with
things popular and acclaimed upon release then restrospectively shown to
be a case of the emperor's new clothes.

Who cares what history has to say? So long as Bioware never makes a current game that sucks (i.e. at release their games are critically acclaimed and make a tremendous amount of money) the company will keep going forever.

[WilliamShatner]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

The point is the Batman franchise died on its arse trying to pander to the mainstream and didn't revive itself until it went back to its hardcore roots. 

There is nothing "hardcore" about Mass Effect 1.

I'm not talking about mechanics here.  I'm talking about people who know their Feros from their Ferons. People who do more than just watch/play something once and then move on to the latest flavour of the week.

I can't think of a single franchise that has benefited from ignoring their core fanbase in favour of a more mainstream audience.  

[upsettingshorts]

WilliamShatner wrote...

I'm not talking about mechanics here.  I'm talking about people who know their Feros from their Ferons. People who do more than just watch/play something once and then move on to the latest flavour of the week.

And so your argument is that... Mass Effect 2 compromised the lore of ME1?  Yeah, I'm not having this discussion on the Dragon Age 2 boards.

WilliamShatner wrote...

I can't think of a single franchise that has benefited from ignoring their core fanbase in favour of a more mainstream audience. 

I can't think of a single way of discussing how ME2 might have done this that doesn't begin and end with gameplay changes, which I preferred, but recognize not everyone did.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 février 2011 - 04:16 .

[Haxas]

Wouldn't be surprised if we don't play as warden again.



Would be surprised if we don't play as his Kid.



DA2 is going to unveil a even bigger threat than dark spawn imo toward the ending (possibly flemeth?).

[Erinpedz]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

The point is the Batman franchise died on its arse trying to pander to the mainstream and didn't revive itself until it went back to its hardcore roots. 

There is nothing "hardcore" about Mass Effect 1.

I'm not talking about mechanics here.  I'm talking about people who know their Feros from their Ferons. People who do more than just watch/play something once and then move on to the latest flavour of the week.

I can't think of a single franchise that has benefited from ignoring their core fanbase in favour of a more mainstream audience.  

To a degree I'd say the only one  that succeeded even slightly  was Star trek and that was more a case of branching out with  spin offs etc.. it kept some fans throughout and it lost some, but as it lost fans  that were loyal to the original it gained new fans.. which is what I expect will happen with DA2

[FieryDove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'd love for just one of these kinds of posts, one day, to acknowledge that there are members of the "old audience" that don't see a single thing Bioware has done yet as being "entirely different" at all. 

That's all well and good.

There are also people who would be served a plate of burnt liver at Denny’s and never say a word because they don’t like to complain. But that doesn’t help the quality of the staff/food improve or better service for return visits or gasp other customers getting better service/food in the long run.

(not saying you would or are one of these people or DA2 is burnt liver)

It's just the way I see it we are all fans for many different reasons. I don't understand how we can't seem to live and let live (so to speak) on what we like, want to see in BW games. Can't we all just get along?

[WilliamShatner]

In Exile wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
The point is the Batman franchise
died on its arse trying to pander to the mainstream and didn't revive
itself until it went back to its hardcore roots. 

Batman
Forever far outgrossed Batman Returns and got better reviews
when intitially released but I can't tell you one person I know who
prefers it now.

Who cares? Batman Forever made more money and had more critical acclaim. No one speaks about these movies right now because they're 15 year old movies. Who the hell cares?

Batman & Robin was a piece of crap that killed the franchise. That's the movie you want to focus on.

History is filled with
things popular and acclaimed upon release then restrospectively shown to
be a case of the emperor's new clothes.

Who cares what history has to say? So long as Bioware never makes a current game that sucks (i.e. at release their games are critically acclaimed and make a tremendous amount of money) the company will keep going forever.

Do you have any idea how inane that post it?

I guess No Strings Attached is more worthy of discussion than Casablanca because it's a couple of weeks old.

A quality work of art or entertainment is a quality work of art or entertainment it doesn't matter how old they are.  Great ones last and are watch and discussed decades, centuries after they have been made.  And for anyone with any pride in their work, that should strive for forever not a week.

[upsettingshorts]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Do you have any idea how inane that post it?

Well, you keep changing the rules as you go.  Is this even about Dragon Age 2 anymore?

[Monica83]

Awakening are not so that great... Its rushed and bugged... Also DLCS so not all bioware works are so great they are humans they can do wrong

[WilliamShatner]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

I'm not talking about mechanics here.  I'm talking about people who know their Feros from their Ferons. People who do more than just watch/play something once and then move on to the latest flavour of the week.

And so your argument is that... Mass Effect 2 compromised the lore of ME1?  Yeah, I'm not having this discussion on the Dragon Age 2 boards.

WilliamShatner wrote...

I can't think of a single franchise that has benefited from ignoring their core fanbase in favour of a more mainstream audience. 

I can't think of a single way of discussing how ME2 might have done this that doesn't begin and end with gameplay changes, which I preferred, but recognize not everyone did.

I'm talking about a story that destroyed and reset rather than built upon an amazing first.  One that that clearly designed for newcomers rather than for people who played the original and knew the story and saw that awesome ending that pointed you to a clear direction.  I'm talking about a much hyped choice system that did everything it could to sidestep the decisions you made in the first game and retcon them if need be.

[Victia]

Change isn't always bad and although we haven't played Da2 yet, from what I have seen the batsuit seems to be nippleless, just slightly less rubbery!

[WilliamShatner]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Do you have any idea how inane that post it?

Well, you keep changing the rules as you go.  Is this even about Dragon Age 2 anymore?

It could be, we won't know until we play it, right?

[Erinpedz]

Victia wrote...

Change isn't always bad and although we haven't played Da2 yet, from what I have seen the batsuit seems to be nippleless, just slightly less rubbery!

^^ Best chuckle of the night and so well put

[LdyShayna]

In Exile wrote...

I can understand and appreciate this feeling, but it isn't clear at all that Bioware changed direction. To me, a fan since KoTOR (who has played every Bioware game beside MDK and that sonic game), Bioware has never stopped making the games that made them great. 

Features like PC-VO are not central.

*smacks head* It's isn't clear to you.  It isn't central TO YOU.   Lots of people DO think it's central or at least important - both pro and con.  It fundamentally changes the game to me.  You claiming it can't be true is is just projection on your part.

The specific gameplay has varied a number of times since BG (with KoTOR, JE, Mass Effect, and now back to a similar scheme in DA:O & DA2).

Yes.  I've noticed.  And I've given feedback on what I liked and what I didn't.  When they make games I'm not itnerested in, I don't buy them (ME2).   I'm not against change in general, regardless of what you want to hint at.  But they are leaving a different approach to the player character behind.  An approach you don't care for.  We have played the same games and enjoyed them for different reasons.  I get that.  You do too.  Or I thought so.

Let me say this clearly - I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED TO BE THE HARDCORE FAN.  I think it's a ridiculous distinction.  I claim to be part of their fanbase that they are leaving behind.  No more.  No less.   I am not more important than anyone else.  I'm not super special.  I AM frustrated.
 

No. Bioware could as easily make the artistic argument that while they care about sales, in the end they have a particular kind of game in kind and a particular kind of vision of design and they are sticking to that.

They could, but that has been shot down as a realistic argument to make.  Repeatedly.  Bottom line is all that matters.

I have never felt that Bioware changed their design policy; I feel that things like PC VO are the appropriate successor features to a dialogue tradition stretching back to BG.

I understand that.  Where did I say that everyone who were real fans should feel the same way I do?  Where did I even HINT that this was the case?  Can you truly not accept that there are a group of people that feel this way and it can ever, ever be legitmate?  I KNOW there are people who claim that.  I am asking you to make a distinction between the arguments.  I have NEVER said they should never make games that improve in ways YOU want.  I AM saying that I am disappointed that they will not continue to make the games I want.

Beyond that, if you want to take credit for the success thus far - that is absolutely your right because you do deserve some credit. You bought the game. But that doesn't mean you're neccesary for future games to be succesful.

Where are you getting this?  Where did *I* say that?  If you want to address the other people in the thread, please do so. *I* want them to make SOME games of the type I want them to make.  I try to make the case that there is an audience for it.  They have made it clear now, that it doesn't matter.  They don't believe the different audience is big enough to be worth pursuing.  I find this frustrating. 

I don't see how it is an insult TO YOU or anyone else.

[PrinceOfFallout13]

i enjoy change,i like to try new things some of you should try it is great