200 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'm confused by the anger. Bioware's not a charity, it does not make games for a specific group of people. It makes games. Some people buy them, some don't. That's how it works and it's how it's always worked.

There's nothing to be confused by.

People become fans and they start to feel ownership-- either way it's an emotional investment in where they game goes. We ask for that, so it's hardly like we can resent getting it.

Do some people take it too far, into entitlement? Sure. But I don't think it's too crazy to want to be the one that a game developer courts when they're putting together a game. Who wants to feel like an outsider, especially when you felt like an insider previously-- whether that's a valid conclusion to make or not?

It gets weird when someone takes that emotional investment to the extent that they express their disappointment as hurt... like they've been dumped by their girlfriend/boyfriend-- or like a developer has been cheating on them. That's weird. But I don't think it's confusing.

[Tsuga C]

LdyShayna wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I think people want to feel special, and so you hear the ''you'll faill without me!'' line that gets bandied about. It isn't changing features that will kill a company, but making a crap game.

Please.  It's because people are frustrated that the types of games they like - games that sold millions of copies and made BioWare a well known name in gaming - are suddenly not being made.  At all.  And apparently never again.  They are shifting to make entirely different types of games and it's utterly frustrating.  And the only , ONLY acceptable argument to make (as has been made clear repeatedly) is whether that will make them finacially successful or not, so OF COURSE people are going to focus on whether or not this is a wise move and and try to claim their position as the one that makes sense in pursuing for financial success.

I'm done, though.  Even if I do buy more of their games on a lark, it's clear that I'm part of an audience they are fine with leaving behind.  So...yeah.  Whatever.

Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  Ding!  Ding!

Give that lady a kewpie doll because she just hit the bulleye.  BioWare made games I enjoyed and as far as I'm concerned they hit their high water mark with the NWN1 series, especially HotU and the patches that ran up through 1.69.  EAWare, however, has come to the conclusion that people like LdyShayna and I do not represent a worthwhile market segment any longer despite the considerable financial success they enjoyed with DA:O.

I'm decidedly angry with the decisions and directions made by EAWare, but I do have a mote of empathy for the old BioWare staff that are currently stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Their company foolishly sold itself to a corporate entity with a well-earned, lousy reputation for destroying smaller, more creative companies that they purchase.  This is currently happening to the folks of EAWare.  My only hope is that the better people, the ones who still remember making superior games rather than mass market dreck, will eventually tire of life under their oppressive corporate masters and will leave to form a new company more in keeping with the BioWare of old.

*crosses fingers* 

[HolyJellyfish]

David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'm confused by the anger. Bioware's not a charity, it does not make games for a specific group of people. It makes games. Some people buy them, some don't. That's how it works and it's how it's always worked.

There's nothing to be confused by.

People become fans and they start to feel ownership-- either way it's an emotional investment in where they game goes. We ask for that, so it's hardly like we can resent getting it.

Do some people take it too far, into entitlement? Sure. But I don't think it's too crazy to want to be the one that a game developer courts when they're putting together a game. Who wants to feel like an outsider, especially when you felt like an insider previously-- whether that's a valid conclusion to make or not?

It gets weird when someone takes that emotional investment to the extent that they express their disappointment as hurt... like they've been dumped by their girlfriend/boyfriend-- or like a developer has been cheating on them. That's weird. But I don't think it's confusing.

As long as the Devs keep a deaf ear on certain situations, I'm not too concerned by Angry Fan Syndrom. Its only when AFS begins to interfere with creativity and innovation.

Angry Fan Syndrom Ruining Video Games

[Dave of Canada]

Tsuga C wrote...

I'm decidedly angry with the decisions and directions made by EAWare, but I do have a mote of empathy for the old BioWare staff that are currently stuck between a rock and a hard place.  Their company foolishly sold itself to a corporate entity with a well-earned, lousy reputation for destroying smaller, more creative companies that they purchase.  This is currently happening to the folks of EAWare.  My only hope is that the better people, the ones who still remember making superior games rather than mass market dreck, will eventually tire of life under their oppressive corporate masters and will leave to form a new company more in keeping with the BioWare of old.

So this isn't about your missing old Bioware games, this is about you hating coorperate entities in general and trying to argue against them on these boards?

Edit: Ah, should've known immediately it was you when you mentioned "EAware".

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 février 2011 - 07:39 .

[syllogi]

David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I'm confused by the anger. Bioware's not a charity, it does not make games for a specific group of people. It makes games. Some people buy them, some don't. That's how it works and it's how it's always worked.

There's nothing to be confused by.

People become fans and they start to feel ownership-- either way it's an emotional investment in where they game goes. We ask for that, so it's hardly like we can resent getting it.

Do some people take it too far, into entitlement? Sure. But I don't think it's too crazy to want to be the one that a game developer courts when they're putting together a game. Who wants to feel like an outsider, especially when you felt like an insider previously-- whether that's a valid conclusion to make or not?

It gets weird when someone takes that emotional investment to the extent that they express their disappointment as hurt... like they've been dumped by their girlfriend/boyfriend-- or like a developer has been cheating on them. That's weird. But I don't think it's confusing.

*coughVisceriscough*

/old forums reference

Personally, I think I'm being quite reasonable when I express doubts about the sequel to a game I really enjoyed changing in what appears to be a dramatically different direction.  I don't think it's odd at all, and as long as Bioware welcomes public feedback, I think they should be prepared for that sort of thing when big changes are made.  There were many new features in DA2 that I didn't have a problem with, and actually welcome -- but when I express any doubts at all, about any new feature, there are posters who immediately jump to conclusions and accuse me of being unreasonably demanding.  I'm not demanding anything.  I'm asking for clarification, or an explanation, of why someone who enjoyed the first game would enjoy these new features.  I'm aware that Bioware is not a charity, but again, they accept feedback and questions, so why wouldn't I avail myself of that opportunity, especially when it's quite possible that once I understand the new elements in this game, I will find it more attractive.

[David Gaider]

Dave of Canada wrote...
So this isn't about your missing old Bioware games, this is about you hating coorperate entities in general and trying to argue against them on these boards?

As near as I can tell, most fans prefer to think of us as hobbyists. They like their developers small and still trying to make money... as opposed to actually making money, which is when we've sold out to the Man. The fact that making money was always the goal is irrelevant, as apparently you cannot do that while also being creative.

Not unless someone actually likes what we're doing. Then we're still hobbyists.

TeenZombie wrote...
Personally, I think I'm being quite reasonable when I express doubts about the sequel to a game I really enjoyed changing in what appears to be a dramatically different direction.  I don't think it's odd at all, and as long as Bioware welcomes public feedback, I think they should be prepared for that sort of thing when big changes are made.  There were many new features in DA2 that I didn't have a problem with, and actually welcome -- but when I express any doubts at all, about any new feature, there are posters who immediately jump to conclusions and accuse me of being unreasonably demanding.  I'm not demanding anything.  I'm asking for clarification, or an explanation, of why someone who enjoyed the first game would enjoy these new features.  I'm aware that Bioware is not a charity, but again, they accept feedback and questions, so why wouldn't I avail myself of that opportunity, especially when it's quite possible that once I understand the new elements in this game, I will find it more attractive.

I agree. I think it's completely reasonable to express doubts.

I'm not sure why people will rush to vociferously defend us-- maybe it's the other side of that emotional investment? The honor of one's boyfriend/girlfriend needs to be defended? Possibly it's because people assume that if someone says something on the forums which they disagree with, unless they do so immediately and conclusively other people (particularly us) will be swayed by their arguments and do what they're suggesting.

Did I say people are weird? They are. It's like getting the tearful phone call from your ex when you weren't aware you were going out in the first place.

Which is not to say that all people are weird, or that every expression of doubt is entitlement. As you say, a reasonable head and an eye for critical thinking will go far no matter where you end up on liking the game.

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 février 2011 - 07:47 .

[LdyShayna]

David Gaider wrote...
It gets weird when someone takes that emotional investment to the extent that they express their disappointment as hurt... like they've been dumped by their girlfriend/boyfriend-- or like a developer has been cheating on them. That's weird. But I don't think it's confusing.

Sorry if I gave that impression.  I'll say for the record that the "breaking up with me" line that I used yesterday was meant to be a joke.

Yeah.  I've let my various frustrations build up too long.  I'll let it go.  Apologies.

[Tsuga C]

Dave of Canada wrote...
So this isn't about your missing old Bioware games, this is about you hating coorperate entities in general and trying to argue against them on these boards?

Edit: Ah, should've known immediately it was you when you mentioned "EAware".

Nice try.  You're being deliberately obtuse.  It's overwhelmingly about the former, not the latter. 

[Dave of Canada]

Tsuga C wrote...

It's overwhelmingly about the former, not the latter. 

I'd believe you more but around 70% of the post was you talking about the evils of business and how "EAware" is oppressing Bioware to do games you don't like against their will.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 03 février 2011 - 07:47 .

[Tsuga C]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Tsuga C wrote...

It's overwhelmingly about the former, not the latter. 

I'd believe you more but around 70% of the post was you talking about the evils of business and how "EAware" is oppressing Bioware to do games you don't like against their will.

Believe whatever you wish.  If EAWare was hellbent-for-leather about making games I prefer, I'd be singing their praises to the Nth degree.  They're not, so I voice my opposition to their current direction.  It's no more complicated than that, really.

[David Gaider]

LdyShayna wrote...
Sorry if I gave that impression.  I'll say for the record that the "breaking up with me" line that I used yesterday was meant to be a joke.

Yeah.  I've let my various frustrations build up too long.  I'll let it go.  Apologies.

Oh, I didn't mean you, LdyShayna, and I didn't know you used that line. I do, however, see the sentiment expressed often, in different ways. Insofar as you specifically go, I think you've made your point quite clear. We've crossed a line you're not willing to cross, so that means you won't play. Seems fair to me. I've only seen you actually say so on rare occasion, so I'd hardly call what you're doing the equivalent of the "unending break-up".

Modifié par David Gaider, 03 février 2011 - 07:52 .

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, I think I'm probably about as hardcore as Brockololly, and I'd also say what I want to happen is the polar opposite of what he does.

So I don't think "hardcore fans" really gets at the heart of the issue.

I'd echo that sentiment. But this goes back to labelling and dividing the fanbase, etc.

I'm a hardcore PC gamer, a hardcore BioWare fan, and I think that BioWare has a responsibility to both make its games better than DA:O was on consoles and to continue to innovate.

[MerinTB]

How can a thread with such a provocative title actually have devolved into such a reasonable discussion?

[Eudaemonium]

MerinTB wrote...

How can a thread with such a provocative title actually have devolved into such a reasonable discussion?

I suppose its some kind of inverse law.

[upsettingshorts]

MerinTB wrote...

How can a thread with such a provocative title actually have devolved into such a reasonable discussion?

Lots of the BSN's more reasonable people are posting here. 

[AtreiyaN7]

The only thing I'm wondering about at the moment is why some people feel the inexplicable urge to take a stick and poke at a hornet's nest, as the results are fairly predictable. As far as I can tell, everyone was, if not okay with things, at least not overly emotional about the Warden issue in recent days.

Some people aren't going to get over the Warden because they want to see that story continue and really, really, reeeeeally love their character. *shrug* Those of us who are okay with moving on don't need convincing. Those who aren't okay with moving on won't suddenly change their minds by being provoked and/or antagonized in all likelihood.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 03 février 2011 - 08:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
Personally, I think I'm being quite reasonable when I express doubts about the sequel to a game I really enjoyed changing in what appears to be a dramatically different direction.

I agree. I think it's completely reasonable to express doubts.

I think I started the whole "confused" and "weird" thing so I just wanna say I'm not talkin' about criticism or doubt in general. I don't mean to paint all those frustrated with DA2 with the same brush. Only to point out that it's easy for me to understand and sympathize with "I don't like this because X" but I genuinely get annoyed with the whole "Bioware is abandoning their old fans for 'new fanbase'" stuff that I can't help but read as if they were written scornfully, because they often are. Criticism and frustration aren't things I have problems with, really.  Just some of the arguments that can lead to.

Positioning that criticism in such a way that it claims to speak for others, or speak against others... is it weird or confusing that I'd get upset about that?  Maybe it is.  What's wrong with "I don't like X because A, B, C"  does it have to be more than that?  

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not sure why people will rush to vociferously defend us-- maybe it's the other side of that emotional investment?

Possibly. When I appear to do with it, I think it's coincidental - except perhaps when it came to the Signature Edition preorder and my whole concept of what I think loyalty means to me.  That was rather unapologetically pro-Bioware. I really just don't like my position (pro changes) being shoe-horned in with a new audience (because I'm not) or some vague mainstream (which seems like a pejorative) or because it's either implied or explicitly said that I need my hand held or the game dumbed down (which is just insulting). So I end up "defending Bioware" when more often I feel like I'm defending myself from what I view as unfair attacks.  They may not always appear as such to the people making the arguments, maybe they view their position as self-evident (and I don't doubt some do), but unintentional attacks are still attacks in that they have the same effect on me at least at first.

And no, this doesn't apply to all people, all the time, and everyone who ever even coughed in the direction of a dialogue wheel. Just the ones that get me goin'.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[Victia]

I always think the 'eaware' comments are so unfair! Do I have a passionate and irrational hatered of ea - absolutely! Do I adore bioware games - sure do! But by my way on thinking, by joining forces it boosts biowares budget (i would assume), and their mass appeal, in turn making them more money and allowing them to continue making the names I love!



Or that's my thoughts on the subject anyhow

[Maera Imrov]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
(snipping the rest in interest of not making a quote wall. )

 I really just don't like my position (pro changes) being shoe-horned in with a new audience (because I'm not) or some vague mainstream (which seems like a pejorative) or because it's either implied or explicitly said that I need my hand held or the game dumbed down (which is just insulting). So I end up "defending Bioware" when more often I feel like I'm defending myself from what I view as unfair attacks.

And no, this doesn't apply to all people, all the time, and everyone who ever even coughed in the direction of a dialogue wheel. Just the ones that get me goin'.

I agree completely.

Quite often people who don't mind the changes get lumped in with a whole nest of vaguely-negative sounding labels, and the times I end up defending the changes, it feels more like I'm trying to defend myself and the others like me.

[Cutlass Jack]

MerinTB wrote...

How can a thread with such a provocative title actually have devolved into such a reasonable discussion?

I hate when that happens.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
I really just don't like my position (pro changes) being shoe-horned in with a new audience (because I'm not) or some vague mainstream (which seems like a pejorative) or because it's either implied or explicitly said that I need my hand held or the game dumbed down (which is just insulting). So I end up "defending Bioware" when more often I feel like I'm defending myself from what I view as unfair attacks.

Whatever.

Apologist.

[upsettingshorts]

David Gaider wrote...

Whatever.

Apologist.

Pfft, DG is trollin' again.

[mellifera]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Whatever.

Apologist.

Pfft, DG is trollin' again.

The Gaider is a lie, never forget, 2/3/2011, etc.

[Apollo Starflare]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Whatever.

Apologist.

Pfft, DG is trollin' again.

Some people just can't help themselves.