368 réponses à ce sujet

[Fromyou]

Hence the title do you think the Geth are justified for their actions to the point where they become controlled by the Reapers. To add on are they justified for attacks on innocent people and not allowing quirans back

Modifié par Fromyou, 03 février 2011 - 03:36 .

[shoggoth1890]

Yep. The quarians should no more have expected geth to go quietly into that sweet night than they should have expected a propped up boulder to not fall on them after kicking out its support.

[xRAYZ0Rx]

Yes, Imo they were justified. Just like Sheperd knew the Reapers wanted to exterminate life, the Geth realized the Quarians wanted to destroy their life. so they reacted.

Modifié par xRAYZ0Rx, 03 février 2011 - 03:34 .

[StarGateGod]

incoming flamewar

bt yes as mucha s i love tali, the geth were justified

[adam_grif]

Fromyou wrote...

To add on are they justified for attacks on innocent people and not allowing quirans back

No.

Well that was easy. Systmatically exterminating the Quarian people, and only failing because their last remaining survivors fled is what we would consider a war crime.

[Alexander Kogan]

Yes, the Geth are justified.  The Geth never intended to hurt their creators, they merely defended themselves and the quarians need to accept the fact that they have lost the war they started 300 years ago and start making peace with their "children" (as Admiral Koris fittingly called them) and stop attacking the Geth "100% of the time" as Legion has stated.

Modifié par Alexander Kogan, 03 février 2011 - 04:20 .

[Schneidend]

adam_grif wrote...
No.

Well that was easy. Systmatically exterminating the Quarian people, and only failing because their last remaining survivors fled is what we would consider a war crime.

Both sides went to excessive and brutal extremes to try and take each other out completely.

[adam_grif]

Schneidend wrote...

adam_grif wrote...
No.

Well that was easy. Systmatically exterminating the Quarian people, and only failing because their last remaining survivors fled is what we would consider a war crime.

Both sides went to excessive and brutal extremes to try and take each other out completely.

Genocide is not acceptable just because the other side wanted to do it to you first. The geth should have defeated the Quarian miliatary then fled. At worst, you could justify the occupation of the Quarian civilian population and maybe even forcibly relocating them (maybe). You can't justify total obliteration.

[Schneidend]

No. I meant that, during the Dawn War, after the geth started fighting back, the quarians were using extreme tactics as much as the geth, according to Legion.



I think we can assume he was being honest, given he didn't condone the geth's actions, either, and sounded almost apologetic.

[DPSSOC]

adam_grif wrote...
Genocide is not acceptable just because the other side wanted to do it to you first.

 
I disagree.  In any conflict if your opponent's only goal is your complete and utter anihilation it is acceptable, and in my opinion sensible, to seek theirs.  You cannot "beat" an enemy that wants to see you wiped out, they will simply recover, rebuild, and return.  The only option is, unfortunately, to destroy them completely.

adam_grif wrote...
The geth should have defeated the Quarian miliatary then fled. At worst, you could justify the occupation of the Quarian civilian population and maybe even forcibly relocating them (maybe). You can't justify total obliteration.

Let's say the Geth did just stop at wiping out the military and allowing the civillians to flee, it would have generated the same culture, resentment combined with a refusal to admit personal responsibility geared towards nothing but finishing what they started at a later date.  Keep in mind even as brutally beaten as the Quarians were they still are trying to wipe out the Geth (in one way or another).

To bring it to more personal terms let's say you kill the husband of a pregnant woman, whatever your reason she is going to raise her child to hate you.  This child will want nothing more than your death and will transfer that hate to any children you have.  The hate will build and be passed on from generation to generation until one of his family (or many) will try to kill one of yours.  In a war of anihilation your enemy's women are merely factories for the next generation of enemy soldiers.  The Geth needed to wipe out the Quarians because they knew any survivors would just come back to wipe them out.  Maybe in 1 year, 10 years, 100 years, 1,000 years, eventually they are going to strike again.

[adam_grif]

Do you have any direct quotes? I'm struggling to think of situations where "We must exterminate them down to the last child" is going to help their cause. The only way they could even do that was by rounding up and shooting every last one of them, even large scale nuclear attacks on infrastructure and military targets won't wipe out even a majority of the civilian population.

They could easily have captured large numbers of civilians and held them hostage in order to negotiate a peaceful end to hostilities. The only thing I can really conclude from this is that the Geth simply don't have any kind of conventional human morality.

I disagree.  In any conflict if your opponent's only goal is
your complete and utter anihilation it is acceptable, and in my opinion
sensible, to seek theirs.  You cannot "beat" an enemy that wants to see
you wiped out, they will simply recover, rebuild, and return.  The only
option is, unfortunately, to destroy them completely.

Except Quarians aren't innately genocidal against Geth, and the Quarian desire to destroy them is in no small part based on the idea that the Geth are out to get them and won't rest until the last Quarian perishes. Which is a perfectly reasonable belief to have when 99.9999% of your population was just wiped out by them, and then the only reason you're alive is because you ran out of their weapon's range.

Modifié par adam_grif, 03 février 2011 - 04:47 .

[Schneidend]

adam_grif wrote...

Do you have any direct quotes? I'm struggling to think of situations where "We must exterminate them down to the last child" is going to help their cause. The only way they could even do that was by rounding up and shooting every last one of them, even large scale nuclear attacks on infrastructure and military targets won't wipe out even a majority of the civilian population.

A colony or asteroid drop could wipe out an entire planet's population, civilian or otherwise. I believe Legion states that both sides used such tactics, but that I'm uncertain of.

Except Quarians aren't innately genocidal against Geth, and the Quarian desire to destroy them is in no small part based on the idea that the Geth are out to get them and won't rest until the last Quarian perishes. Which is a perfectly reasonable belief to have when 99.9999% of your population was just wiped out by them, and then the only reason you're alive is because you ran out of their weapon's range.

It's really not that perfectly reasonable given the geth did not pursue the quarians beyond the Veil, and only attack because quarians always attack when they believe they can win.

Regardless, you stated earlier that genocide isn't acceptable because somebody attempts to do it first. You believe that, but I guess it's clear that the geth reached the concensus that it was perfectly acceptable at the time.

Also, it is possible the geth systematically slaughtered the quarians during the Dawn War and only stopped when the quarians fled because they couldn't reach a consensus to stop systematically slaughtering the quarians while both races occupied the same territory. Once the quarians left, the situation changed, and they reached concensus.

[DPSSOC]

adam_grif wrote...
Do you have any direct quotes? I'm struggling to think of situations where "We must exterminate them down to the last child" is going to help their cause. The only way they could even do that was by rounding up and shooting every last one of them, even large scale nuclear attacks on infrastructure and military targets won't wipe out even a majority of the civilian population.

They could easily have captured large numbers of civilians and held them hostage in order to negotiate a peaceful end to hostilities. The only thing I can really conclude from this is that the Geth simply don't have any kind of conventional human morality.

And you're probably right that they don't.  My guess would be the Geth run (or ran anyway) on probability engines, what is the most likely outcome of action A, etc.  Perhaps the Geth, who were still fairly simple at the time, simply identified Quarians, or even organics in general, as threats and started eliminating them.  I don't have direct quotes unfortunately but keep in mind the Geth were, and still are, machines (sentient but machines).  They are sufficiently alien that we can't really apply our kind of thinking to them.  Many of the things that affect our decisions; instinctual drives, emotional impulse, etc. don't apply to them.  To them a child is just a smaller Quarian unit, they have no parental instincts or drives to stop them from harming children.

adam_grif wrote...

I disagree.  In any conflict if your opponent's only goal is
your complete and utter anihilation it is acceptable, and in my opinion
sensible, to seek theirs.  You cannot "beat" an enemy that wants to see
you wiped out, they will simply recover, rebuild, and return.  The only
option is, unfortunately, to destroy them completely.

Except Quarians aren't innately genocidal against Geth, and the Quarian desire to destroy them is in no small part based on the idea that the Geth are out to get them and won't rest until the last Quarian perishes. Which is a perfectly reasonable belief to have when 99.9999% of your population was just wiped out by them, and then the only reason you're alive is because you ran out of their weapon's range.

You may recall that the Quarians struck first, tried to wipe out the Geth first, because they feared the implications of them gaining sentience.  Once the first shot was fired, and the first Geth retaliated, bad blood was had.  The Quarians saw, and still see, the Geth as an unprovoked agressor; they were just trying to turn the toaster off and it started shooting them.  With no remorse for their part in starting the conflict all they'll have is resentment toward the Geth for their losses.  Same with WWI and II.  WWII was inevitable because the Germans didn't see themselves as having done anything wrong in WWI (and they may have a point) combined with resentment over their treatment after they lost.  Lack of remorse + resentment = inevitable conflict.

[marshalleck]

In this thread, turning off your PC is an excessive and brutal extreme.

[Schneidend]

More like dropping an orbital colony on your PC.

[Inquisitor Recon]

marshalleck wrote...
In this thread, turning off your PC is an excessive and brutal extreme.

Some of us can live with keeping our machines in slavery.

I kept Legion around to learn what the geth think, but I don't give it any value. I'll take the option that works out in Shepard's and humanity's best interests. The geth may be useful in the short term, but in the long term they are a threat that should be taken down.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 03 février 2011 - 05:19 .

[ADLegend21]

The real Geth are maintaining the quarian homeworld for them to return, they didn't chase them after they left, but the Quairans are too scared to come back because of a geth war that they're going to start.Legion evven tells some of the admirals that the Geth harbor no ill will towards the quarians but no they just wanna kill them.

[samurai crusade]

I think the Geth were justified... however... I believe the war was an accident. The Geth had newly discovered "life" so to speak. The first recorded conversation between Geth and Quarian was so child-like. Acting like children, the Geth defended themselves. Tali said it herself... the Geth have evolved.... not just in appearance but in reasoning and understanding.

Now before everyone goes all..."the geth are machines and really smart and reason in light speed"... bear in mind the early Geth required proximity to each other to free up space for higher processing, their functions were mostly pre-programmed and not alot of free thinking.

Just my opinion though no need to spread it around

[Siansonea]

We are building consensus. Please come back later.

[DarthSliver]

I do believe the Geth are Justified, the Quarians started the war. The Geth just fought back for survival, hence why they didnt chase the Quarians down across the galaxy. Also in ME2 its clear the Quarians are thinking of trying to take back their world, but with what Tali's father was secretly working on. Quarians are going to pursue to control the Geth once more, it was quite clear after you did Tali's loyalty mission.

I feel i did the right thing in Legions loyalty mission by reprogramming the Heretics and making them True Geth.



Also I love Legion, his better than HK-47 lol.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

There was a hole.

[AkiKishi]

The Geth are about as alien as it gets. Without a concept of "self" or emotion they have no idea what they are doing when they kill an organic. They can't really be blamed for that, and their actions have been mostly about preservation and reaction rather than actively seeking genocide.



If anything the other races are more at fault seeing then as lesser because they are machines.

[adam_grif]

A colony or asteroid drop could wipe out an entire planet's population, civilian or otherwise. I believe Legion states that both sides used such tactics, but that I'm uncertain of.

That would have to be an enormous ass asteroid, and is something that requires orbital supremacy to achieve. If you already have orbital supremacy, then you have dominated the battlefield, you can sit up high and pick off military installations and troop formations with impunity. If the Geth are in such a situation where they have already won but still feel the need to wipe people out en masse, then that's unjustifiable.



I'd also still want a quote before assuming this to be the case. I don't recall anything of the sort from my chats with Legion.

Many of the things that affect our decisions; instinctual drives, emotional impulse, etc. don't apply to them. To them a child is just a smaller Quarian unit, they have no parental instincts or drives to stop them from harming children.

I agree that they don't since they obviously opted to take that course of action. That doesn't make it morally justified, however, which is the question posed by this thread.

You may recall that the Quarians struck first, tried to wipe out the Geth first, because they feared the implications of them gaining sentience. Once the first shot was fired, and the first Geth retaliated, bad blood was had.

It's hard to say it was the first shot fired, because what the Quarians did wasn't unjustified. They didn't know that the Geth had come as far as they had, they were hoping to prevent anything bad from occurring by shutting the existing units down before they networked too extensively and gained sentience.



But then it turned out it had already happened, and the Geth fought back. It's not really fair to paint this in the light that the Quarians did something brutal or savage, they didn't know the true state of affairs.

The Quarians saw, and still see, the Geth as an unprovoked agressor; they were just trying to turn the toaster off and it started shooting them. With no remorse for their part in starting the conflict all they'll have is resentment toward the Geth for their losses. Same with WWI and II. WWII was inevitable because the Germans didn't see themselves as having done anything wrong in WWI (and they may have a point) combined with resentment over their treatment after they lost. Lack of remorse + resentment = inevitable conflict.

WWII also happened because the Quarians Germans felt they were in a position to win a conflict, and because they were ruled by a bunch of crazy fascists, and because they wanted room to expand in. The Geth need only to maintain a strong military deterrence and colonize space that will not lead them into border competitions with the Quarians. Arguably they could peacefully coexist anyway since the Geth do not use planets, and instead opt to live in large orbitals. They would not intrude on each others living space although they might compete for resources.



Them getting buddy buddy is probably what happens when you select the blue text option in ME3 anyway



But the point is, the Geth were hostile and still are hostile. They aren't just isolationist, they're actively hostile and destroy any ship that enters their space in the Perseus Veil. Not only were they unwilling to extend an olive branch to the Quarians in the time after their conflict (or during it to show willingness to broker peace), they refuse to even have anything to do with organics. The only time we've seen an exception to this is Legion, who only talked to Shepard because they were looking out for themselves.



Also keep in mind we've had the Heretic Geth fiasco where they've started attacking human colonies without provokation, which is NOT going to help the situation with Quarian-Geth relations, since it's just further evidence of their hostility to organic life. For all the Quarians know the reason they haven't pursued them yet is because they're building up a super fleet to conquer the galaxy with and one fleet of Quarians isn't worth their time.

[Siansonea]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Geth are about as alien as it gets. Without a concept of "self" or emotion they have no idea what they are doing when they kill an organic. They can't really be blamed for that, and their actions have been mostly about preservation and reaction rather than actively seeking genocide.

If anything the other races are more at fault seeing then as lesser because they are machines.

Organics should have backups, so they can be restored in case of a catastrophic system failure or hardware failure. The current system is inefficient. Analog communication should also be discontinued in favor of direct digital data transfer. The increase in efficiency would be significant.

[STG]

It was self defense that went too far. So yes and no.