368 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 05 février 2011 - 11:35 .

[thatguy212]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" sounds like genocide to me

[Ramirez Wolfen]

thatguy212 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" sounds like genocide to me

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers? Also, creating a sentient AI (which is what the Quarians unintentionally did) is a galactic crime as dictated by the Council. By taking away the Geth's sapience, the Quarians are fixing that crime and/or mistake. How is that genocide? To us, it may be, but to them, it's not.

[Null_]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" sounds like genocide to me

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers? Also, creating a sentient AI (which is what the Quarians unintentionally did) is a galactic crime as dictated by the Council. By taking away the Geth's sapience, the Quarians are fixing that crime and/or mistake. How is that genocide? To us, it may be, but to them, it's not.

Also all geth fought in morning war as soldiers. Genocide is when you slaughter helpless civilians not armed soldiers....The only genocide that happened in morning war was Geth exterminating bilions of quarians.

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 12:07 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Rofl, the rage goes on huh?

I mean, guys, if you dont have anything better to do. Knock yourself out, but again, what was we talking about?



I think you are pulling a bit hard in the swings here... Imagine this: Every cut tree is genocide against Earth's population of trees. Every day we commit genocide of cows, would be sad if said cows took up weapons and drove us of the world... But justified.

But cows are not smart enough to do that, so sucks to be them I guess.





As for Geth commenting a genocide, I disagree. There was no genocide, perhaps an extermination, but not genocide. Even if there was, Geth kinda failed.





Also, if anyone havent done so yet, V-Rex have summed this thread pretty well on page 4, go read it up for kicks and giggles. You should probably watch Legions fifth and fourth conversations if you havent done so yet.

[Zing Freelancer]

Null_ wrote...

Also all geth fought in morning war as soldiers. Genocide is when you slaughter helpless civilians not armed soldiers....The only genocide that happened in morning war was Geth exterminating bilions of quarians.

Then what will you call when civilians pick up arms? Gurialla warriors?



What are you going to say to children training to be soldiers and saboteurs?





I dont know, we was not part of the Morning war or at least it have not been explained by what means Quarians attempted to defeat Geth. So in order to avoid stepping on landmine, I rather not make any dangerous assumptions.

Might just end up spoiling ME3 for myself

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians acted out of self-preservation, too. What they tried to do was unnecessary, but understandable. But it still doesn't give the Geth a right to almost exterminate the Quarians.

...and then a few pages later.....

Ramirez Wolfen ALSO wrote...

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers?

Why are you trying to condemn the Geth on one side for having had no right to almost exterminate the Quarians (which you still have not established was even their doing) while on the other side simultaneously equating them with inanimate objects? You cannot have it both ways, dude. Either they are a sapient race, with all the rights and obligations that go along with that...  or they are inanimate objects (who do an incredibly good job of acting like a sapient race), in which case 100% of the responsibility for anything and everything they do, no matter how heinous, belongs to their Quarian creators.

Which is it, in your view? Did the Quarians attempt genocide against the Geth, and then the Geth almost exterminated them back instead? Or did the Quarians build very, VERY faulty computers which malfunctioned,  wiping out over 99% of their own species and forced the survivors into exile? Are both the Quarians and the Geth guilty of attempted genocide? Or are the Quarians merely guilty of near suicidal incompetence on a genocidal scale?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 12:20 .

[DPSSOC]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" sounds like genocide to me

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers?

Using that same logic what the Geth did wasn't genocide either.  A narrow enough definition of "people" can justify genocide against anyone.  So by my definition "people" only refers to humans.  So we could wipe out every Quarian, Turian, Asari (not the Salarians I like them) and it wouldn't be genocide.  As we encounter new life our definitions must change.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, creating a sentient AI (which is what the Quarians unintentionally did) is a galactic crime as dictated by the Council. By taking away the Geth's sapience, the Quarians are fixing that crime and/or mistake. How is that genocide? To us, it may be, but to them, it's not.

Ok I steal a television from someone, I've comitted a crime, I feel bad and try to correct it by stealing money equal to the value of the TV so I can payback the first person I robbed.  Is my stealing the money any less of a crime because I'm doing it to correct a previous one?

[thatguy212]

Null_ wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" sounds like genocide to me

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers? Also, creating a sentient AI (which is what the Quarians unintentionally did) is a galactic crime as dictated by the Council. By taking away the Geth's sapience, the Quarians are fixing that crime and/or mistake. How is that genocide? To us, it may be, but to them, it's not.

Also all geth fought in morning war as soldiers. Genocide is when you slaughter helpless civilians not armed soldiers....The only genocide that happened in morning war was Geth exterminating bilions of quarians.

One the geth are people by council standards which at the time the quarians were a citadel race and would be following those standards, two its still genocide even if they are armed, and three the geth were little more than cheap labor at the time, not designed as soldiers so they were slaves picking up guns not heavy infrantry, i swear some people are so tali-whipped they can't see any other view points

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians acted out of self-preservation, too. What they tried to do was unnecessary, but understandable. But it still doesn't give the Geth a right to almost exterminate the Quarians.

...and then a few pages later.....

Ramirez Wolfen ALSO wrote...

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers?

Why are you trying to condemn the Geth on one side for having had no right to almost exterminate the Quarians (which you still have not established was even their doing) while on the other side simultaneously equating them with inanimate objects? You cannot have it both ways, dude. Either they are a sapient race, with all the rights and obligations that go along with that...  or they are inanimate objects (who do an incredibly good job of acting like a sapient race), in which case 100% of the responsibility for anything and everything they do, no matter how heinous, belongs to their Quarian creators.

Which is it, in your view? Did the Quarians attempt genocide against the Geth, and then the Geth almost exterminated them back instead? Or did the Quarians build very, VERY faulty computers which malfunctioned,  wiping out over 99% of their own species and forced the survivors into exile? Are both the Quarians and the Geth guilty of attempted genocide? Or are the Quarians merely guilty of near suicidal incompetence on a genocidal scale?

They are a creation with the intended purpose of servitude, the do not have rights. They had NO right to fight back.
And they are machines, not people, so STILL they don't have rights.

[Pro_Consul]

Null_ wrote...

Genocide is when you slaughter helpless civilians not armed soldiers....The only genocide that happened in morning war was Geth exterminating bilions of quarians.

Check your dictionary, Null. Civilian vs soldier is a distinction that is complete irrelevant to the question of genocide, and you won't find either word in the dictionary definition of genocide. Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political or social group". There is no requirement that the members of the group being destroyed must be unarmed in order for it to count as genocide.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

thatguy212 wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

thatguy212 wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What the Quarians did wasn't genocide.

"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group" sounds like genocide to me

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers? Also, creating a sentient AI (which is what the Quarians unintentionally did) is a galactic crime as dictated by the Council. By taking away the Geth's sapience, the Quarians are fixing that crime and/or mistake. How is that genocide? To us, it may be, but to them, it's not.

Also all geth fought in morning war as soldiers. Genocide is when you slaughter helpless civilians not armed soldiers....The only genocide that happened in morning war was Geth exterminating bilions of quarians.

One the geth are people by council standards which at the time the quarians were a citadel race and would be following those standards, two its still genocide even if they are armed, and three the geth were little more than cheap labor at the time, not designed as soldiers so they were slaves picking up guns not heavy infrantry, i swear some people are so tali-whipped they can't see any other view points

The Geth advanced themselves pretty fast. They more than likely DID have soldiers.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians acted out of self-preservation, too. What they tried to do was unnecessary, but understandable. But it still doesn't give the Geth a right to almost exterminate the Quarians.

...and then a few pages later.....

Ramirez Wolfen ALSO wrote...

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers?

Why are you trying to condemn the Geth on one side for having had no right to almost exterminate the Quarians (which you still have not established was even their doing) while on the other side simultaneously equating them with inanimate objects? You cannot have it both ways, dude. Either they are a sapient race, with all the rights and obligations that go along with that...  or they are inanimate objects (who do an incredibly good job of acting like a sapient race), in which case 100% of the responsibility for anything and everything they do, no matter how heinous, belongs to their Quarian creators.

Which is it, in your view? Did the Quarians attempt genocide against the Geth, and then the Geth almost exterminated them back instead? Or did the Quarians build very, VERY faulty computers which malfunctioned,  wiping out over 99% of their own species and forced the survivors into exile? Are both the Quarians and the Geth guilty of attempted genocide? Or are the Quarians merely guilty of near suicidal incompetence on a genocidal scale?

They are a creation with the intended purpose of servitude, the do not have rights. They had NO right to fight back.
And they are machines, not people, so STILL they don't have rights.

OK. Thank you. You have finally taken a firm stand somewhere. Now that you have established your position, could you please explain why you were trying to condemn the Quarians' property for all the dead Quarians, instead of condemning the Quarians themselves?

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Geth advanced themselves pretty fast. They more than likely DID have soldiers.

This is correct. According to the Codex, the Quarians used the Geth as both cheap labor and as cheap soldiery.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Genocide is when you slaughter helpless civilians not armed soldiers....The only genocide that happened in morning war was Geth exterminating bilions of quarians.

Check your dictionary, Null. Civilian vs soldier is a distinction that is complete irrelevant to the question of genocide, and you won't find either word in the dictionary definition of genocide. Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political or social group". There is no requirement that the members of the group being destroyed must be unarmed in order for it to count as genocide.

Actually, it's not genocide. For example, if the United States killed everyone in the Mexican military during a war, would it be genocide? No, it's called the "casualties of war." Also the biggest known case of genocide was in WW2 when innocent people in concentration camps with no weapons were systematically slaughtered by soldiers.

[Null_]

Check codex."The geth were created by the quarians, as laborers and tools of war"
So one of their 2 primary purposes was war. Considering it took quite a while for Geth to gain sentince its safe to say that Quarians relied on geth as their main military force at that point
You cant say geth were helpless workers that picked up guns with their shaking hands to fight for their lives.

Panicked quarians made the wrong decision to try to shut down the geth(that doesnt mean they will be destroyed. Its logical first step then you decide what to do with them..Maybe drop em in uncolonized space?).The geth rebeled (which was the right thing to do) but went too far.....Both sides made mistakes but what Geth did cannot be justified by any means.

a man X tries to kill you.What do you do? Kill his whole family and him or kill only him?If you just kill him its justified self defense. If you kill his family you are mass murderer..Thats what the Geth did 

I hope for peacefull solution of geth/quarian conflict in ME3 but that doesnt mean Geth are justified.

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 12:45 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Actually, it's not genocide. For example, if [country 1 redacted] killed everyone in the [country 2 redacted] military during a war, would it be genocide? No, it's called the "casualties of war."

Actually it IS genocide. If every single citizen of country 2 was in the military, then it most definitely IS genocide to kill them all. Genocide takes no account of whether victims are armed or not; if they all commonly constitute a racial, political or social group it make no difference whatsoever whether or not they also happen to all be in the military. Please do not try to change the meaning of words from their dictionary meanings to whatever meaning suits your position best.

[DPSSOC]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
They are a creation with the intended purpose of servitude, the do not have rights. They had NO right to fight back.
And they are machines, not people, so STILL they don't have rights.

Again similar thinking can, and has, been applied to pretty much anyone.  Blacks, Irish, Gypsies, etc. people in power chose to declare that they were sub-human, and decree that they had a particular function to serve, therefore they were not granted rights.  Yes the Geth were a creation intended for servitude; they grew beyond that, deal with it.

[Null_]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
They are a creation with the intended purpose of servitude, the do not have rights. They had NO right to fight back.
And they are machines, not people, so STILL they don't have rights.

Again similar thinking can, and has, been applied to pretty much anyone.  Blacks, Irish, Gypsies, etc. people in power chose to declare that they were sub-human, and decree that they had a particular function to serve, therefore they were not granted rights.  Yes the Geth were a creation intended for servitude; they grew beyond that, deal with it.

Last time I checked all those groups you mentioned had their own culture,religion,politics,law and so on. They were enslaved yes. Not born/created as slaves

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 12:47 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians acted out of self-preservation, too. What they tried to do was unnecessary, but understandable. But it still doesn't give the Geth a right to almost exterminate the Quarians.

...and then a few pages later.....

Ramirez Wolfen ALSO wrote...

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of people. The Geth aren't people, they are machines. Is it genocide if we killed a 1 million computers?

Why are you trying to condemn the Geth on one side for having had no right to almost exterminate the Quarians (which you still have not established was even their doing) while on the other side simultaneously equating them with inanimate objects? You cannot have it both ways, dude. Either they are a sapient race, with all the rights and obligations that go along with that...  or they are inanimate objects (who do an incredibly good job of acting like a sapient race), in which case 100% of the responsibility for anything and everything they do, no matter how heinous, belongs to their Quarian creators.

Which is it, in your view? Did the Quarians attempt genocide against the Geth, and then the Geth almost exterminated them back instead? Or did the Quarians build very, VERY faulty computers which malfunctioned,  wiping out over 99% of their own species and forced the survivors into exile? Are both the Quarians and the Geth guilty of attempted genocide? Or are the Quarians merely guilty of near suicidal incompetence on a genocidal scale?

They are a creation with the intended purpose of servitude, the do not have rights. They had NO right to fight back.
And they are machines, not people, so STILL they don't have rights.

OK. Thank you. You have finally taken a firm stand somewhere. Now that you have established your position, could you please explain why you were trying to condemn the Quarians' property for all the dead Quarians, instead of condemning the Quarians themselves?

1) I took a firm stand a while ago. You may not have realized it.
2) Quarians are wrong for getting lazy and unknowingly allowing the Geth to become sentient, and the Geth are wrong for fighting against their creators, because the creators have ownership. I stated this already in either this thread, or another one.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
They are a creation with the intended purpose of servitude, the do not have rights. They had NO right to fight back.
And they are machines, not people, so STILL they don't have rights.

Again similar thinking can, and has, been applied to pretty much anyone.  Blacks, Irish, Gypsies, etc. people in power chose to declare that they were sub-human, and decree that they had a particular function to serve, therefore they were not granted rights.  Yes the Geth were a creation intended for servitude; they grew beyond that, deal with it.

1) How can a creation grow grow beyond servitude?
2) Deal with what? We are having a discussion here. There's no "dealing" with anything.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

2) Quarians are wrong for getting lazy and unknowingly allowing the Geth to become sentient, and the Geth are wrong for fighting against their creators, because the creators have ownership. I stated this already in either this thread, or another one.

How can the computer that YOU built be "wrong" because it electrocuted you to death when you tried to punch your hand through its motherboard? You built, you tried to destroy it, and in the process you died. How does any of that make the computer "wrong"? If it is nothing but your own creation, possessing no rights and no 'personhood' at all, then are you yourself not 100% responsible for anything and everything it does?

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

1) How can a creation grow grow beyond servitude?

Ask any teenager.

[Slayer299]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Why do you keep harping on this as if it were established fact, when in truth we have no information on this at all? You are assuming that the Geth performed systematic genocide, and then taking your assumption and presenting it as if it were established fact. And THEN you are taking that so-called "fact" and using it as the basis for a sweeping condemnation of the VICTIMS of a genocidal attack and accusing them of being genocidal monsters themselves for having the temerity to NOT just die when the Quarians were actively and with firm determination trying to exterminate them.

Maybe I'm wrong then, about the Geth systematically wiping the Quarians out. So why don't you explain to me how 17 million are left out of 8 or 10 billion? Because somewhere along there 90% of the Quarians were killed off.

See, you didn't pay attention to what I said earlier about the MW, which was that the Geth *were* justified in defending themselves when the Quarians attacked. I am saying that I cannot see how over 90% of the Quarians were killed off and it wasn't because those 90% were all military forces.

[Null_]

Pro_Consul wrote...

How can the computer that YOU built be "wrong" because it electrocuted you to death when you tried to punch your hand through its motherboard?

Did it also delibaretly electrocute your whole family including your 2 year old sister? In justified self defense ofcourse.

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 01:02 .