368 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

1) How can a creation grow grow beyond servitude?

Ask any teenager.

You cannot compare teenagers to machines, for teenagers weren't created for the purpose of servitude (depending on your viewpoint)

[Pro_Consul]

Null_ wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

How can the computer that YOU built be "wrong" because it electrocuted you to death when you tried to punch your hand through its motherboard?

Did it also delibaretly electrocute your whole family including your 2 year old sister? In self defense ofcurse

If it did, how can that be anyone's fault but the person who built it and subsequently tried to destroy it? If it nothing but a piece of property, not a person at all, then why are you trying to holding it responsible for anything at all?

[Zing Freelancer]

Slayer299 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
Why do you keep harping on this as if it were established fact, when in truth we have no information on this at all? You are assuming that the Geth performed systematic genocide, and then taking your assumption and presenting it as if it were established fact. And THEN you are taking that so-called "fact" and using it as the basis for a sweeping condemnation of the VICTIMS of a genocidal attack and accusing them of being genocidal monsters themselves for having the temerity to NOT just die when the Quarians were actively and with firm determination trying to exterminate them.

Maybe I'm wrong then, about the Geth systematically wiping the Quarians out. So why don't you explain to me how 17 million are left out of 8 or 10 billion? Because somewhere along there 90% of the Quarians were killed off.

See, you didn't pay attention to what I said earlier about the MW, which was that the Geth *were* justified in defending themselves when the Quarians attacked. I am saying that I cannot see how over 90% of the Quarians were killed off and it wasn't because those 90% were all military forces.

i assume too many fools tried to punch a hole in their computer monitors?

Now just one second here Ramirez, if I understood Legion right, Geth never rebelled against hardlabour and work, they rebelled because first Creators rewrote their program. But when that failed, they started to systimatically shutting down their Hardware. Thats is when Geth decided to fight for their survival.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

2) Quarians are wrong for getting lazy and unknowingly allowing the Geth to become sentient, and the Geth are wrong for fighting against their creators, because the creators have ownership. I stated this already in either this thread, or another one.

How can the computer that YOU built be "wrong" because it electrocuted you to death when you tried to punch your hand through its motherboard? You built, you tried to destroy it, and in the process you died. How does any of that make the computer "wrong"? If it is nothing but your own creation, possessing no rights and no 'personhood' at all, then are you yourself not 100% responsible for anything and everything it does?

The computer didn't electrocute the person. The electricity inside it did.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The computer didn't electrocute the person. The electricity inside it did.

Now you are just nitpicking, if you have something of value to add to the argument, do so or perish.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
Why do you keep harping on this as if it were established fact, when in truth we have no information on this at all? You are assuming that the Geth performed systematic genocide, and then taking your assumption and presenting it as if it were established fact. And THEN you are taking that so-called "fact" and using it as the basis for a sweeping condemnation of the VICTIMS of a genocidal attack and accusing them of being genocidal monsters themselves for having the temerity to NOT just die when the Quarians were actively and with firm determination trying to exterminate them.

Maybe I'm wrong then, about the Geth systematically wiping the Quarians out. So why don't you explain to me how 17 million are left out of 8 or 10 billion? Because somewhere along there 90% of the Quarians were killed off.

See, you didn't pay attention to what I said earlier about the MW, which was that the Geth *were* justified in defending themselves when the Quarians attacked. I am saying that I cannot see how over 90% of the Quarians were killed off and it wasn't because those 90% were all military forces.

i assume too many fools tried to punch a hole in their computer monitors?

Now just one second here Ramirez, if I understood Legion right, Geth never rebelled against hardlabour and work, they rebelled because first Creators rewrote their program. But when that failed, they started to systimatically shutting down their Hardware. Thats is when Geth decided to fight for their survival.

Once again, the Geth are the Quarians' creation. The Quarians have every right to fix a mistake they made.

[Pro_Consul]

Slayer299 wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
Why do you keep harping on this as if it were established fact, when in truth we have no information on this at all? You are assuming that the Geth performed systematic genocide, and then taking your assumption and presenting it as if it were established fact. And THEN you are taking that so-called "fact" and using it as the basis for a sweeping condemnation of the VICTIMS of a genocidal attack and accusing them of being genocidal monsters themselves for having the temerity to NOT just die when the Quarians were actively and with firm determination trying to exterminate them.

Maybe I'm wrong then, about the Geth systematically wiping the Quarians out. So why don't you explain to me how 17 million are left out of 8 or 10 billion? Because somewhere along there 90% of the Quarians were killed off.

See, you didn't pay attention to what I said earlier about the MW, which was that the Geth *were* justified in defending themselves when the Quarians attacked. I am saying that I cannot see how over 90% of the Quarians were killed off and it wasn't because those 90% were all military forces.

Asked and answered several pages ago in this thread. Apparently you missed those postings. Look here. Also touched on it further in a few more postings after that point. In addition went into even more detail on it in this thread.

[Null_]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

How can the computer that YOU built be "wrong" because it electrocuted you to death when you tried to punch your hand through its motherboard?

Did it also delibaretly electrocute your whole family including your 2 year old sister? In self defense ofcurse

If it did, how can that be anyone's fault but the person who built it and subsequently tried to destroy it? If it nothing but a piece of property, not a person at all, then why are you trying to holding it responsible for anything at all?

Since we are threathing Geth as sentinent beigns not computers this will be better:
"a man tries to kill you.What do you do? Kill him to survive  or kill him then go to his house and kill his family?If you just kill him its justified self defense. If you kill his family you are mass murderer..Thats what the Geth did"
You are saying mass murder of bilions of unarmed men,women,children is justified self defense?

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 01:10 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The computer didn't electrocute the person. The electricity inside it did.

Now you are just nitpicking, if you have something of value to add to the argument, do so or perish.

Watch it, it's polite conversation. What I meant was that the computer didn't "do" anything, making this analogy invalid.

[Rip504]

[quote]Null_ wrote...

Check codex."The geth were created by the quarians, as laborers and tools of war"
So one of their 2 primary purposes was war. Considering it took quite a while for Geth to gain sentince its safe to say that Quarians relied on geth as their main military force at that point
You cant say geth were helpless workers that picked up guns with their shaking hands to fight for their lives.

Panicked quarians made the wrong decision to try to shut down the geth(that doesnt mean they will be destroyed. Its logical first step then you decide what to do with them..Maybe drop em in uncolonized space?).The geth rebeled (which was the right thing to do) but went too far.....Both sides made mistakes but what Geth did cannot be justified by any means.

a man X tries to kill you.What do you do? Kill his whole family and him or kill only him?If you just kill him its justified self defense. If you kill his family you are mass murderer..Thats what the Geth did 

I hope for peacefull solution of geth/quarian conflict in ME3 but that doesnt mean Geth are justified.
[/quote]Null_ wrote...

Also I dont buy this "justified self defense" crap... Yeah killing billions of civilians is justified self defense. Kicking a whole race away from their homeworld(especially when its pretty much only planet they can live normally on) is justified self defense... yeah right
[/quote]
^Agreed

Geth Chased the Quarians until the physically could not anymore.
Don't assume the Geth stopped killing Quarians due to a peaceful choice.
The choice was made for them. It would of taken years and a great deal of Geth power to build platforms to function properly beyond the veil.Hence Legion being the only Geth platform sent out in 300 years of existence.
And every fact leading up to the veil,point to the Geth trying to wipe out an entire race while comminting war crimes. Both parties are wrong,two wrongs do not make a right. We all know this,so no the Geth are not justified in my opinion.
Quarians have sent ships into Geth space,only to have them sent back dead. Geth have never sent any representatives into Citadel space or to the Quarian fleet. Not even matching the Quarians attempts. Yea Heritics can be blamed for the dead ships. But Legion states Geth watch organics,meaning they know every ship sent into Geth space has returned dead,and is a bad sign on them. So the first platform they send out,is a hostile assassin hunting down Shepard for answers? Not on a peaceful quest mission. No they are interested in protecting themselves from the Reapers and Collectors,this is why Legion seeks out Shepard. Not a mission of peace,but of self-preservation.
Legion is not an idividual Geth. Legion is over a 1000 Geth on a single platform.

Modifié par Rip504, 06 février 2011 - 01:10 .

[General User]

Pro_Consul wrote...
Boy am I glad we don't live in your world. That level of paranoia is only one step removed from genocidal xenophobia. In the real world the automatic default threat level is "unknown". For purposes of this context, the point of initial contact, opening of diplomatic relations, progression to trade relations and so forth is to gradually increase knowledge and familiarity, and therefore increase accuracy of threat assessment on both sides. The earlier it is in this process, the less reliable any threat assessment is presumed to be. There are two general types of information that are necessary for any kind of reliable threat assessment: physical and cultural. The former involves biology, technology, disposition and composition of forces, geography and so on. The latter requires getting to actually know the subject; how do they think, what do they value, what do they want, what do they fear? Physical intelligence lets you form a picture of the subject's capabilities, while cultural intel lets you form an idea about their plans and intentions. Without both of these any threat assessment is worth less than the memory space it occupies on your omnitool.

Sr. Cortez, su habitación está lista.

Paranoia can be healthy.

Pro_Consul wrote...
Funny. What it is even funnier is that it was your hypothesis that relied on the presumption you are now mocking so sarcastically, not mine.

I though a bit of levity might be welcome. 
 
And part of my hypothesis is that the geth are a dangerous and immature people, X percent them choosing to worship Nazara, and susequently go to war against the galaxy is a fine case in point.

Pro_Consul wrote...
How do you enforce any non-aggression pact? By mutual fear of the consequences of violation. That doesn't require any ongoing active engagement by the Geth with their neighbors. It does require convincing the Geth that the consequences of their not preventing a recurrence are worse than the consequences of allowing such a recurrence. Nothing more....and nothing less, since that isn't exactly an easy feat.

Draw an "Iron Curtain" across the Perseus Veil?  We can do better than that.  The geth have much to offer us, and we have much to offer them beyond mutual non-belligerence.

Pro_Consul wrote...
I am not asking that you list all of your assumptions. Merely that when you do state them that you acknowledge them as such and not present them as if they were established facts.

Assumptions are only bad when they're baseless.  Assumptions based on logic or history are profoundly useful in the absence of facts.

Pro_Consul wrote...
No matter how anyone tries to rationalize this, my system of morality does not permit blaming the victims for the consequences of someone else's crimes.

Please, please, please, PLEASE tell me the irony does not escape you.   

Pro_Consul wrote...
Obviously evacuees would bring whatever food and supplies they could carry. But if the military forced them to evacuate prior to, say, a planned bombing of the entire power distribution network and every technical production facility in a city, just how much good is the food left behind going to do to the refugees when they no longer have access to it? Denying the enemy what they need can still all too easily deny your own people what they need; even if those two needs have nothing else in common, the one thing they DO have in common is that they require access to a place that is now in enemy hands. So yes, a perfectly good rationale exists for denying food and shelter to your own people as a necessary side effect of denying power generation and production facilities to the advancing robot army.

Destroying power and transportation hubs would disrupt food distribution networks, but not lead to the starvation of an entire planet's worth of people.

You keep running into the same problem.  For all the ways you can envision that quarians could die through no fault of the geth, all of them, even together and mutally reinforcing, fall short of the scale of the event.  Something has to bridge that gap.

Pro_Consul wrote...
Aside from survival, none. Of course one might view that as a sign of our social immaturity, this reluctance, or perhaps inability to work in common cause without regard to prejudicial influences. But that is rather a subtext of this entire discussion, isn't it?

It is the way of our kind that our differences make us stronger.  However exasperating it may occasionally be, our inability as an entire species to work in common cause is a symptom of our diversity, and thus something to be admired and preserved.

Pro_Consul wrote...
Really? *snip*

Hey, what can I say?  Collective punishment is a war crime.  You don’t like it?  Take it up with the Hague.

Modifié par General User, 06 février 2011 - 01:11 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

You cannot compare teenagers to machines, for teenagers weren't created for the purpose of servitude (depending on your viewpoint)

How do you know? People have been having babies in order to have more hands to work the farm for millenia. When your 12 year old son refuses to do the dishes, do you have the right to kill him merely by virtue of being the one who brought him into this world? Of course not. 

But back to the question you keep dodging: how can the Geth be responsible for anything at all; how can they be "wrong" for doing what they did, if in fact they are not people at all?

[DPSSOC]

Null_ wrote...
Last time I checked all those groups you mentioned had their own culture,religion,politics,law and so on. They were enslaved yes. Not born/created as slaves

Not in the eyes of their oppressors, which is what I'm trying to get at.  We're drawing a line and saying, "This is where entities cease to have rights," and that line is just as arbitrary as the ones that saw those people treated as sub-human.  Ramirez says the Geth have no rights because they're machines; that's where he (or she) has drawn the line..  I draw it at sapience/sentience (not entirely sure which is the proper term).  I'm not saying that's wrong, though I feel it is, my intent was merely to point out that with a narrow enough definition you can justify the subjugation and extermination of practically anyone.

As for not being born as slaves that can only be said for the first few generations.  Once you have slaves having children they are born for slavery; they will live and die as slaves and the only reason they were allowed to be born in the first place was to produce new slaves.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
2) Deal with what? We are having a discussion here. There's no "dealing" with anything.

The fact that whatever the Geth were it changed.  Yes they were built as mindless automatons but they evolved, they grew, they changed.  The minute the Geth stepped outside the bounds of the Quarians programming they ceased to be the Quarians creation (figuratively speaking of course).  Look at it this way, say you make a machine for the sole purpose of flipping coins, that's all it's supposed to do.  You come home one day to find it making paper airplanes.  At that moment, when it did something you did not intend under it's own power, it stopped being your creation.  I don't know what it became but it was no longer just some thing you built.  That's where it came from, but it has since stepped outside your control.

[Rip504]

Legion agrees with Shepard(In-Game) that the Geth should not be judge by and held to the same standards as organic life. Legion calls it racist or something similiar to that.
So if the Geth agree we should not hold them to the same standards as organics,then perhaps we should not...

Modifié par Rip504, 06 février 2011 - 01:17 .

[Null_]

Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld(thats only place where they can normaly live) a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 01:18 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Once again, the Geth are the Quarians' creation. The Quarians have every right to fix a mistake they made.

Humour me Ramirez, how much "Mistake fixing" did your mother do on you?

[Zing Freelancer]

Null_ wrote...



Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld thats only place where they can normaly live a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Legion said that during the war against Quarians, when ever quarians felt like they had upper hand. They always attacked.

So if we assume that geth was always on the defensive, eventually they was forced to go on offensive and drive Quarians out. Its not like everything happened during one mourning.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Once again, the Geth are the Quarians' creation. The Quarians have every right to fix a mistake they made.

Humour me Ramirez, how much "Mistake fixing" did your mother do on you?

With all due respect, this topic is not about my personal life. Please try to stay on topic.

[General User]

It’s worth noting that, in Mass Effect, ships cannot be tracked or engaged in FTL. That any and every military engagement ends once one party goes FTL.

Thus it is physically impossible for the geth to destroy the Migrant Fleet even if they did want to, unless they catch them all with their engines inoperable.

Modifié par General User, 06 février 2011 - 01:23 .

[Null_]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld thats only place where they can normaly live a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Legion said that during the war against Quarians, when ever quarians felt like they had upper hand. They always attacked.
So if we assume that geth was always on the defensive, eventually they was forced to go on offensive and drive Quarians out. Its not like everything happened during one mourning.

Thats just impossible. Quarian military on the ground was definitly small(Geth were intended as tools of war back when they were first created). Some civilians fought back but it definitly wasnt Geth standing in place and Bilions of quarians armed with pitchforks rushing on them. This just didnt happen. Geth should have destroyed Quarian military, seize control of most starships and fly away to build "their future" and defend it if quarians attack(many years later. after all their small military force would have been obliterated). Instead Geth killed every single quarian they could and took their homeworld for no reason(its not even used by them)

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

With all due respect, this topic is not about my personal life. Please try to stay on topic.

Why does it feel like when ever someone says "With all due respect" they mean "Kiss my ass"?

On the other hand, it is quit relevant. After all, we are talking about creators fixing their mistakes.



But since you are shy to share your personal life over internett with total strangers... For all you know I could've been your uncle



But let me put this out for you: I had a fair share of "Mistake fixing" with my creators. I also lived in such place where I could bear witness to "Mistake fixing" going wrong and creating fixing his creators instead.

I myself was on a brink where I hated my creators to such extend I could brood for a whole day on something to do them in spite. But in the end, I still love them from the button of my heart







What does this have to do with the topic? Simply your argument of "Creators having the right to fix their mistakes" have been dismissed.

[NeroSparda]

Null_ wrote...

Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld(thats only place where they can normaly live) a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Well the Quarians would had attacked or become oppressed to the Geth, which most of them had come to agreement that is not what they want (according to Legion... I think). As that will lead to genocide of the Quarians. They are also willing to become peaceful with their creators, they still consider the Quarians as such even with what they had in mind. The fact in the matter is, the Quarians attacked instead of asking their creations to fix "the mistakes" from their original programming. I will not lie, I do not know how many will be willing to agree with it, but I am sure some will while the others will try to seek it's own way to assist their creators. Let's face it, neither are in the right. But the Geth suffered more loses to each individual (tens to thousands in each platform) compared Quarian loses. Comparing the "disagreement" among themselves, it is possible that at the least, the Geth lost  from half to double amount of the loss of Quarian lives.

Edit: I noticed a typo, fixed it from manner to matter.

Modifié par NeroSparda, 06 février 2011 - 01:32 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
With all due respect, this topic is not about my personal life. Please try to stay on topic.

Why does it feel like when ever someone says "With all due respect" they mean "Kiss my ass"?
On the other hand, it is quit relevant. After all, we are talking about creators fixing their mistakes.

But since you are shy to share your personal life over internett with total strangers... For all you know I could've been your uncle

But let me put this out for you: I had a fair share of "Mistake fixing" with my creators. I also lived in such place where I could bear witness to "Mistake fixing" going wrong and creating fixing his creators instead.
I myself was on a brink where I hated my creators to such extend I could brood for a whole day on something to do them in spite. But in the end, I still love them from the button of my heart



What does this have to do with the topic? Simply your argument of "Creators having the right to fix their mistakes" have been dismissed.

It hasn't been dismissed.

[Zing Freelancer]

Null_ wrote...

Thats just impossible. Quarian military on the ground was definitly small(Geth were intended as tools of war back when they were first created). Some civilians fought back but it definitly wasnt Geth standing in place and Bilions of quarians armed with pitchforks rushing on them. This just didnt happen. Geth should have destroyed Quarian military, seize control of most starships and fly away to build "their future" and defend it if quarians attack(many years later. after all their small military force would have been obliterated). Instead Geth killed every single quarian they could and took their homeworld for no reason(its not even used by them)

Kind sir, I am certain that you have data and numbers to back your claims up. From what I understand you seem to have extensive knowledge of the Quarian society 300 years ago.



I could explain to you, but I dont think you will understand. Since you obviously fail to realize it took 300 years for Geth to understand what they are and what they want to do. You just expect them to fly to some random planet and say "Hi, we are your new neighbours, we just run away from home. Please look past our synthetic looks and treat us well" just like that.



Neither do I expect a 10 year old to leave home and go live alone.