368 réponses à ce sujet

[Null_]

NeroSparda wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld(thats only place where they can normaly live) a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Well the Quarians would had attacked or become oppressed to the Geth, which most of them had come to agreement that is not what they want (according to Legion... I think). As that will lead to genocide of the Quarians. They are also willing to become peaceful with their creators, they still consider the Quarians as such even with what they had in mind. The fact in the matter is, the Quarians attacked instead of asking their creations to fix "the mistakes" from their original programming. I will not lie, I do not know how many will be willing to agree with it, but I am sure some will while the others will try to seek it's own way to assist their creators. Let's face it, neither are in the right. But the Geth suffered more loses to each individual (tens to thousands in each platform) compared Quarian loses. Comparing the "disagreement" among themselves, it is possible that at the least, the Geth lost  from half to double amount of the loss of Quarian lives.

Edit: I noticed a typo, fixed it from manner to matter.

I hope its resolved peacefully aswell but thats not the point.Both sides made mistakes but the point of this thread is to discuss if geth went too far "defending" themselves and they clearly did

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
It hasn't been dismissed.

Yes it has, totally dismissed!
Just like in this vid www.youtube.com/watch


I am saying so because you havent really brought a single argument to support your claim. Mindless one liners dont count as argument.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Null_ wrote...

NeroSparda wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld(thats only place where they can normaly live) a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Well the Quarians would had attacked or become oppressed to the Geth, which most of them had come to agreement that is not what they want (according to Legion... I think). As that will lead to genocide of the Quarians. They are also willing to become peaceful with their creators, they still consider the Quarians as such even with what they had in mind. The fact in the matter is, the Quarians attacked instead of asking their creations to fix "the mistakes" from their original programming. I will not lie, I do not know how many will be willing to agree with it, but I am sure some will while the others will try to seek it's own way to assist their creators. Let's face it, neither are in the right. But the Geth suffered more loses to each individual (tens to thousands in each platform) compared Quarian loses. Comparing the "disagreement" among themselves, it is possible that at the least, the Geth lost  from half to double amount of the loss of Quarian lives.

Edit: I noticed a typo, fixed it from manner to matter.

I hope its resolved peacefully aswell but thats not the point.Both sides made mistakes but the point of this thread is to discuss if geth went too far "defending" themselves and they clearly did

I agree. The Geth did go too far indefending themsleves (they also attacked other Quarian colonies, like Haestrom)

[Pro_Consul]

General User wrote...

Sr. Cortez, su habitación está lista.

Paranoia can be healthy.

True. But it can also cause a lot of needless conflict.

General User wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
How do you enforce any non-aggression pact? By mutual fear of the consequences of violation. That doesn't require any ongoing active engagement by the Geth with their neighbors. It does require convincing the Geth that the consequences of their not preventing a recurrence are worse than the consequences of allowing such a recurrence. Nothing more....and nothing less, since that isn't exactly an easy feat.

Draw an "Iron Curtain" across the Perseus Veil?  We can do better than that.  The geth have much to offer us, and we have much to offer them beyond mutual non-belligerence.

But what if they don't want any of what we have to offer them? Don't they retain the right to keep to themselves? In fact, wouldn't it be greatly to our benefit if they not only did, but did an even more thorough job of it (by taking action themselves to prevent any more instances of heretics attacking organics.)

General User wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
I am not asking that you list all of your assumptions. Merely that when you do state them that you acknowledge them as such and not present them as if they were established facts.

Assumptions are only bad when they're baseless.  Assumptions based on logic or history are profoundly useful in the absence of facts.

Assumption mistaken for actual facts are never a good idea. Like I said, I have no problem with you posting your assumptions. I just ask that you differentiate between them and actual known facts, rather than presenting the former as if they were the latter.

General User wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
No matter how anyone tries to rationalize this, my system of morality does not permit blaming the victims for the consequences of someone else's crimes.

Please, please, please, PLEASE tell me the irony does not escape you.

Not at all. In fact I was more concerned that it seemed to be escaping you.

General User wrote...
Destroying power and transportation hubs would disrupt food distribution networks, but not lead to the starvation of an entire planet's worth of people.

You keep running into the same problem.  For all the ways you can envision that quarians could die through no fault of the geth, all of them, even together and mutally reinforcing, fall short of the scale of the event.  Something has to bridge that gap.

No, actually it doesn't. If two major nations went to war today, and one of them escalated to using WMDs and the other retaliated with nukes, both sides aiming only at targets of military significance of course....and so on....it would not be at all surprising if 100% of the human species and over 90% of all other land-based species were completely extinct from direct and secondary effects of nuclear winter in rather short order. And that could happen with the nations that represent 80% of humanity remaining neutral through the whole thing. They wouldn't be any less dead for having been non-combatants, nor would anyone have ever targeted them for systematic extermination. They would just be a tragic side effect of their planet having been rendered uninhabitable by a war they weren't even party to that quickly got way out of hand.

You keep running into, and then around, the same problem: centuries. It has taken centuries of work for the Geth to make Rannoch habitable once more, and we cannot even be sure the job is even finished yet - Legion seemed to be implying work was still ongoing. If the planet was so screwed up that it took centuries of labor by tireless Geth platforms in order to make it habitable again, then the condition of the planet near the war's end was sufficient to account for the scale of Quarian deaths all by itself. After all, uninhabitable is uninhabitable...it doesn't matter much initial population you have on such a world, you will end up with zero pretty quickly...cuz the planet is uninhabitable.

General User wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
Really? *snip*

Hey, what can I say?  Collective punishment is a war crime.  You don’t like it?  Take it up with the Hague.

Collective punishment and collective responsibility are not the same thing. The Geneva Conventions and Protocols prohibit the former and employ the latter within the core of their primary enforcement mechanism. Sorry, but you are the one who brought up the GCs without realizing they are based on the same ethos I was professing.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
It hasn't been dismissed.

Yes it has, totally dismissed!
Just like in this vid www.youtube.com/watch


I am saying so because you havent really brought a single argument to support your claim. Mindless one liners dont count as argument.

Your disrespect isn't necessary. Exactly where has it been dismissed? I haven't seen that anywhere.

[Null_]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Null_ wrote...
Thats just impossible. Quarian military on the ground was definitly small(Geth were intended as tools of war back when they were first created). Some civilians fought back but it definitly wasnt Geth standing in place and Bilions of quarians armed with pitchforks rushing on them. This just didnt happen. Geth should have destroyed Quarian military, seize control of most starships and fly away to build "their future" and defend it if quarians attack(many years later. after all their small military force would have been obliterated). Instead Geth killed every single quarian they could and took their homeworld for no reason(its not even used by them)

Kind sir, I am certain that you have data and numbers to back your claims up. From what I understand you seem to have extensive knowledge of the Quarian society 300 years ago.

I could explain to you, but I dont think you will understand. Since you obviously fail to realize it took 300 years for Geth to understand what they are and what they want to do. You just expect them to fly to some random planet and say "Hi, we are your new neighbours, we just run away from home. Please look past our synthetic looks and treat us well" just like that.

Neither do I expect a 10 year old to leave home and go live alone.

I dont expect a 10yr old to kill their parents.
I dont know about quarian society 300 years ago. I used common sense to counter your argument that geth were "always defensive", were "forced to go ofensive". and you do realize that colonized space is about 0.000001% of the galaxy? and that geth dont need air,atmosphere and food? "You just expect them to fly to some random planet and say "Hi we are your new neighbours, we just run away from home"<- this just doesnt make sense.


BTW thanks to bioware for creating such fascinating universe. If people spend hours discussing over relatively minor event(from game perspective) then it means you did your job amazingly well

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I agree. The Geth did go too far indefending themsleves (they also attacked other Quarian colonies, like Haestrom)

Agreed, Geth should totally let Quarians have that Haestrom colony as theirs Military staging ground. After Quarians utilized it for at least 100 attacks Geth would get up from their lazy asses and wipe it out clean. Then finally have peace.



Or maybe they thought of such thing before hand and decided to save the trouble of confirming?

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I agree. The Geth did go too far indefending themsleves (they also attacked other Quarian colonies, like Haestrom)

How could they go "too far"? You yourself stated that the Geth are not people; they are merely creations, property, computers that were poorly programmed. By your own logic, therefore, they are doing EXACTLY what their creators programmed them to do. If that constitutes "too far", then it is the Quarians who created them who went "too far", is it not? The Geth cannot possibly be held responsible for anything at all, because they are not people!!

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[NeroSparda]

Null_ wrote...

NeroSparda wrote...

Null_ wrote...

Anyway is genocide of almost entire species and chasing those that you couldnt kill away from their homeworld(thats only place where they can normaly live) a JUSTIFIED SELF DEFENSE? This is the point of this thread. The very fact that someone tries to justify this as self defense is just scary.

Well the Quarians would had attacked or become oppressed to the Geth, which most of them had come to agreement that is not what they want (according to Legion... I think). As that will lead to genocide of the Quarians. They are also willing to become peaceful with their creators, they still consider the Quarians as such even with what they had in mind. The fact in the matter is, the Quarians attacked instead of asking their creations to fix "the mistakes" from their original programming. I will not lie, I do not know how many will be willing to agree with it, but I am sure some will while the others will try to seek it's own way to assist their creators. Let's face it, neither are in the right. But the Geth suffered more loses to each individual (tens to thousands in each platform) compared Quarian loses. Comparing the "disagreement" among themselves, it is possible that at the least, the Geth lost  from half to double amount of the loss of Quarian lives.

Edit: I noticed a typo, fixed it from manner to matter.

I hope its resolved peacefully aswell but thats not the point.Both sides made mistakes but the point of this thread is to discuss if geth went too far "defending" themselves and they clearly did

If you ask me... I think it was too far when in an organic standpoint, but logically, yes the Geth couldn't think of any other choice that didn't led to a complete genocide. As the Geth would had to defend not just themselves, but also  the Quarians with ensured existence. Considering that their creators would had kept attacking if they didn't force them offworld. The Quarians would most likely fight to a complete elimination of the Geth then create something else,then maybe with better results or the cycle would repeat. if the Geth weren't relentless that is.

Modifié par NeroSparda, 06 février 2011 - 01:46 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Null_ wrote...

I dont expect a 10yr old to kill their parents.

I dont know about quarian society 300 years ago. I used common sense to counter your argument that geth were "always defensive", were "forced to go ofensive". and you do realize that colonized space is about 0.000001% of the galaxy? and that geth dont need air,atmosphere and food? "You just expect them to fly to some random planet and say "Hi we are your new neighbours, we just run away from home"<- this just doesnt make sense.

Lol yeah, comon sense fail, even on my part. But its pretty pointless to imagine what was there and whats not. After all, the truth are up to the writer.



As for the last line "Hi we are your new neighbours, we just run away from home".

I just thought it was funny to imagine Geth fly over too close to Turian space and say that, then what you think Turians would do?

They get Krogan to fight Geth and then go to Quarian world to "punish" the natives for creating Geth... Just my common sense not making any sense...

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I agree. The Geth did go too far indefending themsleves (they also attacked other Quarian colonies, like Haestrom)

How could they go "too far"? You yourself stated that the Geth are not people; they are merely creations, property, computers that were poorly programmed. By your own logic, therefore, they are doing EXACTLY what their creators programmed them to do. If that constitutes "too far", then it is the Quarians who created them who went "too far", is it not? The Geth cannot possibly be held responsible for anything at all, because they are not people!!

What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not ave a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

[Null_]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I agree. The Geth did go too far indefending themsleves (they also attacked other Quarian colonies, like Haestrom)

How could they go "too far"? You yourself stated that the Geth are not people; they are merely creations, property, computers that were poorly programmed. By your own logic, therefore, they are doing EXACTLY what their creators programmed them to do. If that constitutes "too far", then it is the Quarians who created them who went "too far", is it not? The Geth cannot possibly be held responsible for anything at all, because they are not people!!

I think it was you that compared geth to electrocuting computer while I compared em to a man.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Your disrespect isn't necessary. Exactly where has it been dismissed? I haven't seen that anywhere.

Try looking up on page 10 or 11, if you are not biased you will see where you stopped having any arguments. Aka, they've been dismissed

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?



When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.



So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Your disrespect isn't necessary. Exactly where has it been dismissed? I haven't seen that anywhere.

Try looking up on page 10 or 11, if you are not biased you will see where you stopped having any arguments. Aka, they've been dismissed

I don't see it. And still, I reside with my argument.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not ave a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

You said they do not have the the right to fight back because they are not people, but rather creations, computers made by the Quarians as tools. Well, how then can you be holding them responsible for anything at all? How can they ever go "too far"? They are going exactly as far as they were created to do: they are performing precisely as their creators built them to perform, even if the creators were too incompetent to realize how far that was until it was too late. Is that not so?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 01:53 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not have a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

This is a pretty sorry ass of an response.



Dont have the right to fight back? By whos standards? I mean, seriously!

Its the same as saying that Tigers dont have the right to attack men because men are superior beings to Tigers. They dont ****ing care, they get scared, hungry or come in danger they cannot escape, yes Tigers will attack men.



You must not think so highly complicated, think more primitive about it: JUNGLE LAW on Quarian planet.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?

When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.

So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

The Reapers didn't create the races in the galaxy. The Geth are a creation of the Quarians. There is a difference. Also, the Geth aren't people. They are machines.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not ave a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

You said they do not have the the right to fight back because they are not people, but rather creations, computers made by the Quarians as tools. Well, how then can you be holding them responsible for anything at all? How can they ever go "too far"? They are going exactly as far as they were created to do: they are performing precisely as their creators built them to perform, even if the creators were too incompetent to realize how far that was until it was too late. Is that not so?

The Geth are sentient (I never denied this), they can know between right and wrong.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

I don't see it. And still, I reside with my argument.

The gods must have blinded you my friend. Not only do you bask in your ignorance and pride, you also refuse to see reason.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not have a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

This is a pretty sorry ass of an response.

Dont have the right to fight back? By whos standards? I mean, seriously!
Its the same as saying that Tigers dont have the right to attack men because men are superior beings to Tigers. They dont ****ing care, they get scared, hungry or come in danger they cannot escape, yes Tigers will attack men.

You must not think so highly complicated, think more primitive about it: JUNGLE LAW on Quarian planet.

1) To you, it is.
2) It's not the same. I'm talking about "creator and creations" not about who's superior.

[Dean_the_Young]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?

If we don't need to and not all the Reapers are out to kill us?

Yes. It would be going too far.

When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.

Which has nothing to do with whether the geth stopped at the point at which the Quarians were no longer a threat to them.

We've had more than enough wars to demonstrate that you can bomb a population to pre-industrial levels without wiping the population out. And also enough wars to demonstrate that a pre-industrial civilization is not a credible threat to an industrial civilization.

So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

If not all the Reapers are trying to kill us, have never tried to kill us, are innocent of the crime of trying to kill us, and are not capable of waging war against us?

Yes.

Of course, Reapers are giant super-dreadnaughts which can single-handidly fight fleets, meaning their capability to do immense harm is built in, whereas Quarians are... not.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't see it. And still, I reside with my argument.

The gods must have blinded you my friend. Not only do you bask in your ignorance and pride, you also refuse to see reason.

State your "reason."

[Null_]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?

When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.

So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

NVM my post is useless Dean_the_Young said it all

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 01:59 .

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Reapers didn't create the races in the galaxy. The Geth are a creation of the Quarians. There is a difference.

We don't know that. Each race could have been spawned by the reapers at the end of the last cycle, to ensure their'll be a crop to harvest next time. I doubt the reapers leave anything to chance.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, the Geth aren't people. They are machines.

The quarians aren't people either, they're aliens.