368 réponses à ce sujet

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not ave a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

You said they do not have the the right to fight back because they are not people, but rather creations, computers made by the Quarians as tools. Well, how then can you be holding them responsible for anything at all? How can they ever go "too far"? They are going exactly as far as they were created to do: they are performing precisely as their creators built them to perform, even if the creators were too incompetent to realize how far that was until it was too late. Is that not so?

The Geth are sentient (I never denied this), they can know between right and wrong.

So? You said they are not people. You said there were merely machinery, creations of the Quarians. People are responsible. Machinery is never responsible. If a machine does not perform as intended it is because its creator screwed up, not because the machine "went too far". Is that not so?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Reapers didn't create the races in the galaxy. The Geth are a creation of the Quarians. There is a difference.

We don't know that. Each race could have been spawned by the reapers at the end of the last cycle, to ensure their'll be a crop to harvest next time. I doubt the reapers leave anything to chance.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, the Geth aren't people. They are machines.

The quarians aren't people either, they're aliens.

The term "people" doesn't just apply to humans.

[Null_]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Reapers didn't create the races in the galaxy. The Geth are a creation of the Quarians. There is a difference.

We don't know that. Each race could have been spawned by the reapers at the end of the last cycle, to ensure their'll be a crop to harvest next time. I doubt the reapers leave anything to chance.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Also, the Geth aren't people. They are machines.

The quarians aren't people either, they're aliens.

Humans arent people either, they're aliens(from other races perspective)
See what I did there?

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The term "people" doesn't just apply to humans.

actually it does. it is the plural of human beings. not plural of sentient organics.

Null_ wrote...
Humans arent people either, they're aliens(from other races perspective)
See what I did there?

Sure humans are aliens from another species perspective, but people is the plural of humans, so non-humans are not people by the definition.

Modifié par wulf3n, 06 février 2011 - 02:05 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
State your "reason."

Reason stated dictionary.reference.com/browse/reason
Oh and if you want to debate on our opinions, please go back a few pages and read what I wrote. Then try to write a response that bear meaning and traces of intelligence.
One lines dont count.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What I'm saying is that not only did the Geth not ave a right to fight back, they also went to far in doing so.

You said they do not have the the right to fight back because they are not people, but rather creations, computers made by the Quarians as tools. Well, how then can you be holding them responsible for anything at all? How can they ever go "too far"? They are going exactly as far as they were created to do: they are performing precisely as their creators built them to perform, even if the creators were too incompetent to realize how far that was until it was too late. Is that not so?

The Geth are sentient (I never denied this), they can know between right and wrong.

So? You said they are not people. You said there were merely machinery, creations of the Quarians. People are responsible. Machinery is never responsible. If a machine does not perform as intended it is because its creator screwed up, not because the machine "went too far". Is that not so?

The Geth ARE machinery. As we all know, with sentience comes independent thought. The Quarians were wrong for allowing them to become sentient (which made the Geth have indpendent thought), which made the Geth do what they did. I don't know if I'm wording this correctly.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?

When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.

So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

The Reapers didn't create the races in the galaxy. The Geth are a creation of the Quarians. There is a difference. Also, the Geth aren't people. They are machines.

So if parents want to kill their child than they have an inherent right because they created that child?

I've had this debate more times than I care to think of and won't go indepth but the Geth are living things. They are sentient beings who are aware of the concept of sapience and life and see themselves as both.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Zing Freelancer wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
State your "reason."

Reason stated dictionary.reference.com/browse/reason
Oh and if you want to debate on our opinions, please go back a few pages and read what I wrote. Then try to write a response that bear meaning and traces of intelligence.
One lines dont count.

Once again, insults are not necessary.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The term "people" doesn't just apply to humans.

actually it does. it is the plural of human beings. not plural of sentient organics.

Null_ wrote...
Humans arent people either, they're aliens(from other races perspective)
See what I did there?

Sure humans are aliens from another species perspective, but people is the plural of humans, so non-humans are not people by the definition.

By a human defintion.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Once again, insults are not necessary.

It was not an insult, it was a challenge.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
By a human defintion.

That is the only definition of people. Aliens would have their own word for a group of their species.

People is a human word, to specifiy a group of human beings.

[Zing Freelancer]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

By a human defintion.

Hold on a second, am going to go and ask my alien friend for an ALIEN DEFINITION.



Oh snap, Mass Effect was written and executed by humans, meaning the whole story is based on human analogy! OH MY GOD!

[Null_]

Can we have a friendly AI tell us about synthetic morality standards? Some organics here say that you justify killing bilions of harmless civilians.

[NeroSparda]

Null_ wrote...

Can we have a friendly AI tell us about synthetic morality standards? Some organics here say that you justify killing bilions of harmless civilians.

We don't have an AI, such we can only base it on organic morality standards. But if I can make a wild guess, if the result leads to both their creators and their own existence are ensured, the actions are justified.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?

If we don't need to and not all the Reapers are out to kill us?

Yes. It would be going too far.

When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.

Which has nothing to do with whether the geth stopped at the point at which the Quarians were no longer a threat to them.

We've had more than enough wars to demonstrate that you can bomb a population to pre-industrial levels without wiping the population out. And also enough wars to demonstrate that a pre-industrial civilization is not a credible threat to an industrial civilization.

So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

If not all the Reapers are trying to kill us, have never tried to kill us, are innocent of the crime of trying to kill us, and are not capable of waging war against us?

Yes.

Of course, Reapers are giant super-dreadnaughts which can single-handidly fight fleets, meaning their capability to do immense harm is built in, whereas Quarians are... not.

1) The Morning War only lasted as long as the Quarians wanted to fight it. If they had left sooner there would be more Quarians. The Geth never wanted to fight a war with them and when they left they never followed. If the Quarians stayed and waited until they were 99.9% dead before having the thought to retreat than that's there fault for being stuborn. In war the reason why our wars having gone to such extremes in life lost is because the lossing side gave up before it got to such death tolls. If Germany or Japan had refused to surrender than guess what eventually we would have had a 80-90% kill off. If the Quarians had realised they'd lost earlier there wouldn't have been a holocast.

2) Would you consider a race that wants to brainwash your entire specie and then remove all of your inteligence until you're nothing but a husk to be a danger? Because that's what the Quarians are trying to do the the Geth from the moment the Morning War started to now. So the Qurarians may not have the ablility to destroy Geth Fleets but they might have the ability and certainly want to destroy the Geth utterly by taking over their minds and wiping them out.

[wulf3n]

Null_ wrote...

Can we have a friendly AI tell us about synthetic morality standards? Some organics here say that you justify killing bilions of harmless civilians.

Can morality even be applied to Synthetic Intelligence? morality is based on emotion and empathy, which geth don't have. Therefore they have no real concept of right and wrong, only what is necessary for survival.

Modifié par wulf3n, 06 février 2011 - 02:13 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
By a human defintion.

That is the only definition of people. Aliens would have their own word for a group of their species.

People is a human word, to specifiy a group of human beings.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/people

It doesn't just apply to humans.

[NeroSparda]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
By a human defintion.

That is the only definition of people. Aliens would have their own word for a group of their species.

People is a human word, to specifiy a group of human beings.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/people

It doesn't just apply to humans.

Edit: Nevermind, I reread the definitions.

Modifié par NeroSparda, 06 février 2011 - 02:20 .

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
http://www.yourdictionary.com/people

It doesn't just apply to humans.

So are dogs people? what about cats? dolphins? Apes? reptiles?

Besides every explanation in that page refers to humans.Person, Religion, Race, Nation! these all relate to human beings.

[Zing Freelancer]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...



1) The Morning War only lasted as long as the Quarians wanted to fight it. If they had left sooner there would be more Quarians. The Geth never wanted to fight a war with them and when they left they never followed. If the Quarians stayed and waited until they were 99.9% dead before having the thought to retreat than that's there fault for being stuborn. In war the reason why our wars having gone to such extremes in life lost is because the lossing side gave up before it got to such death tolls. If Germany or Japan had refused to surrender than guess what eventually we would have had a 80-90% kill off. If the Quarians had realised they'd lost earlier there wouldn't have been a holocast.



2) Would you consider a race that wants to brainwash your entire specie and then remove all of your inteligence until you're nothing but a husk to be a danger? Because that's what the Quarians are trying to do the the Geth from the moment the Morning War started to now. So the Qurarians may not have the ablility to destroy Geth Fleets but they might have the ability and certainly want to destroy the Geth utterly by taking over their minds and wiping them out.

Well said kind sir. But there is certain elements who think that Geth simply went on rampage and slaughtered Quarians. They fail to consider the fact that Quarians was the one driving the fight.



As for your analogy, what would you say to Soviet enforcing their believes on American people. Pretty much the same as Quarians and Geth.

[Pro_Consul]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The term "people" doesn't just apply to humans.

actually it does. it is the plural of human beings. not plural of sentient organics.

Null_ wrote...
Humans arent people either, they're aliens(from other races perspective)
See what I did there?

Sure humans are aliens from another species perspective, but people is the plural of humans, so non-humans are not people by the definition.

No, quit changing the definitions of words to suit your own purposes. The plural of "human" is "humans". "People" is the plural of "person". Granted there is one definition in the dictionary that specifically states human as the definition. But there is also another definiton that states that a person is: "one that is recognized by law as the subject of rights and duties". So the question is reduced to whether you think sentient being have rights innately, or if rights are inherent only for humans, or only for organics, or only for those you approve of....

[Null_]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

The Geth are justified 100%. When we defend ourselves from the Reapers in ME3 will the same people who say that the Geth went too far in protecting themselves say the same thing about us if we end up killing all the Reapers?

If we don't need to and not all the Reapers are out to kill us?

Yes. It would be going too far.

When your opponent wants to destroy you and everyone like you because of your specie than they only thing you can do is fight them until they are no longer a threat to you. The death toll of the Quarians regretable but had the Quarians won you would have had a complete genocide rather than a partial one with the Geth winning.

Which has nothing to do with whether the geth stopped at the point at which the Quarians were no longer a threat to them.

We've had more than enough wars to demonstrate that you can bomb a population to pre-industrial levels without wiping the population out. And also enough wars to demonstrate that a pre-industrial civilization is not a credible threat to an industrial civilization.

So let me ask the people who are saying that the Geth went too far a question. If we end up destroying all of the Reapers were we wrong for committing genocide on a specie that wanted our destruction first?

If not all the Reapers are trying to kill us, have never tried to kill us, are innocent of the crime of trying to kill us, and are not capable of waging war against us?

Yes.

Of course, Reapers are giant super-dreadnaughts which can single-handidly fight fleets, meaning their capability to do immense harm is built in, whereas Quarians are... not.

1) The Morning War only lasted as long as the Quarians wanted to fight it. If they had left sooner there would be more Quarians. The Geth never wanted to fight a war with them and when they left they never followed. If the Quarians stayed and waited until they were 99.9% dead before having the thought to retreat than that's there fault for being stuborn. In war the reason why our wars having gone to such extremes in life lost is because the lossing side gave up before it got to such death tolls. If Germany or Japan had refused to surrender than guess what eventually we would have had a 80-90% kill off. If the Quarians had realised they'd lost earlier there wouldn't have been a holocast.

2) Would you consider a race that wants to brainwash your entire specie and then remove all of your inteligence until you're nothing but a husk to be a danger? Because that's what the Quarians are trying to do the the Geth from the moment the Morning War started to now. So the Qurarians may not have the ablility to destroy Geth Fleets but they might have the ability and certainly want to destroy the Geth utterly by taking over their minds and wiping them out.

1)sorry but... lol wut? Why would Quarians leave the only planet they can live normal lifes on while geth dont even NEED the planet (stated in the game, they live on spacestations and mine asteroids, they keep the planet for no reason)
2)Not all quarians want to brainwash/destroy all geth. Do Tali loyality quest. Some quarians want peace. Some want war.


Its pretty clear Quarians would be open to peace if Geth gave their homeworld back

Modifié par Null_, 06 février 2011 - 02:21 .

[Zing Freelancer]

Null_ wrote...
1)sorry but... lol wut? Why would Quarians leave the only planet they can live normal lifes on while geth dont even NEED the planet (stated in the game, they live on spacestations and mine asteroids)
2)Not all quarians want to brainwash/destroy all geth. Do Tali loyality quest. Some quarians want peace. Some want war.

Its pretty clear Quarians would be open to peace if Geth gave their homeworld back

Null, we already been through this. You cant expect a 10 year old child leave his home without knowledge and understanding of what he is, where he should go and what he should do.
Besides, leaving their world is another word for NOT WANTING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY and admit defeat.

2) If the consensus cannot be achieved, the other half of the equation cannot be completed. So did Legion say.

Its pretty clear that there would be peace if Quarians ever thought about it.

Modifié par Zing Freelancer, 06 février 2011 - 02:24 .

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Geth ARE machinery. As we all know, with sentience comes independent thought. The Quarians were wrong for allowing them to become sentient (which made the Geth have indpendent thought), which made the Geth do what they did. I don't know if I'm wording this correctly.

It sounds like you are still waffling, so if that was not your intent then I guess you were not wording it correctly. But we are making progress nevertheless. You have admitted the Quarians were wrong for making the Geth as they did (sentient), and you admit that this was the cause of everything that the Geth subsequently did. Do you also admit that there is a direct link of responsibility between those two facts? IOW do you agree that the fact that the Quarians were wrong to make the Geth as they did combined with the fact that this wrong action caused a host of bad consequences means that the Quarians are responsible for all those consequences?

Modifié par Pro_Consul, 06 février 2011 - 02:24 .

[wulf3n]

Pro_Consul wrote...
No, quit changing the definitions of words to suit your own purposes.

I can't change the definition of words, i just point them out.

Pro_Consul wrote...
The plural of "human" is "humans". "People" is the plural of "person". Granted there is one definition in the dictionary that specifically states human as the definition.

... so you admit i didn't change the meaning of the word.

Pro_Consul wrote...
So the question is reduced to whether you think sentient being have rights innately, or if rights are inherent only for humans, or only for organics, or only for those you approve of....

See, this is why i believe you don't read my posts. You seem to be of the opinion that i don't believe geth have rights as a sentient intelligence, where as my post was actually pointing out ramirez' hypocracy by calling quarians people, but not geth, even though people is a human concept, that either applies to all sentient beings, or just humans.