368 réponses à ce sujet

[DarthSliver]

Quarians had a chance to keep peace with the Geth, instead they choose to attack the Geth and shut them down. The Quarians in a way end up building their own Skynet without realizing it, just this Skynet only attacked after be provoked.

[Siansonea]

Quarians are nuts. Daro'Xen and Han'Garrel are especially crazy. Only Zaal'Koris is the voice of reason, and he's a toolbag. Shaala'Ran is an unknown quantity, but she seems to fall toward the Han'Garrel side of the equation. The Heretic Geth are also nuts, so they should be virused to accept the truth of the True Geth. The True Geth are the only ones in the conflict that aren't nuts. Go True Geth.

[Praetor Knight]

Siansonea II wrote...

We are building consensus. Please come back later.

Siansonea II wrote...

Quarians are nuts. Daro'Xen and Han'Garrel are especially crazy. Only Zaal'Koris is the voice of reason, and he's a toolbag. Shaala'Ran is an unknown quantity, but she seems to fall toward the Han'Garrel side of the equation. The Heretic Geth are also nuts, so they should be virused to accept the truth of the True Geth. The True Geth are the only ones in the conflict that aren't nuts. Go True Geth.

Consensus achieved.



*************************************************************************************************************

I still would prefer more input.

[Schneidend]

adam_grif wrote...

That would have to be an enormous ass asteroid, and is something that requires orbital supremacy to achieve. If you already have orbital supremacy, then you have dominated the battlefield, you can sit up high and pick off military installations and troop formations with impunity. If the Geth are in such a situation where they have already won but still feel the need to wipe people out en masse, then that's unjustifiable.

I'd also still want a quote before assuming this to be the case. I don't recall anything of the sort from my chats with Legion.

An enormous ass asteroid like the one in Bring Down the Sky? Finding bigass objects in space is easy.

Orbital supremacy isn't necessarily a prerequisite. Such an object would be unstoppable once it was pushed in the right direction unless acted on by an opposite force that pushes it away. Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest sonunva**** in space, after all. All the geth would have to do is keep the quarians from tampering with the asteroid.

As for the quote, well, it's been a while since I exhausted all of Legion's dialogue options, but I believe if you take the upper-right option at 0:25 in this video Legion will say something to the effect of both sides being relentless and brutal opponents to one another.

DarthSliver wrote...

Quarians had a chance to keep peace
with the Geth, instead they choose to attack the Geth and shut them
down. The Quarians in a way end up building their own Skynet without
realizing it, just this Skynet only attacked after be provoked.

As Legion points out, it wouldn't even occur to the average quarian to try and make peace. The fear of intelligent machines would be enough to start a violent panic.
"What would the rest of the galaxy think if they found out?"
"What will happen to our economy without a huge, cheap labor force?"
"What if the geth realize they're essentially slaves and violently rebel?"

All it takes to freak people out is to make them think things will change. Look at my fellow US citizens and I. I'm ashamed to say that half of us absolutely browned our trousers at the thought that a black man or a woman might become the next president. Sure, we didn't try to commit genocide over it, but a lot of people went nuts all the same.

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 février 2011 - 07:17 .

[AkiKishi]

Schneidend wrote...

An enormous ass asteroid like the one in Bring Down the Sky? Finding bigass objects in space is easy.

Orbital supremacy isn't necessarily a prerequisite. Such an object would be unstoppable once it was pushed in the right direction unless acted on by an opposite force that pushes it away. Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest sonunva**** in space, after all. All the geth would have to do is keep the quarians from tampering with the asteroid.

Isn't that a bit like how the Bugs attacked in Starship Troopers?

Given Tali's character of curiosity she's the most likely candidate for "getting to know" the Geth. Even after the confrontation on the ship both she and Legion reached a compromise (wtih the blue option anyway).

Oh, if you havn't done so Bring Legion to the Flotila , treason for live Geth parts lol , Look behind you.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 février 2011 - 07:19 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Geth were justified in defending themselves from Quarian attempts to shut them down, of course. They were not justified in committing near total genocide against the Quarians, especially since the war was evidently going decisively in their favor.

[Schneidend]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Oh, if you havn't done so Bring Legion to the Flotila , treason for live Geth parts lol , Look behind you.

Also, Tali's recruitment mission.

Kal'Reegar: ...! There's a geth! Right behind you!

Legion: We will fight the geth in this location.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I actually wish there would have been a scene where Shepard looks back at Legion and facepalms after he hears the charges against Tali. Especially if he or she just got in a big argument with the captain about bringing Legion aboard.

[adam_grif]

An enormous ass asteroid like the one in Bring Down the Sky? Finding bigass objects in space is easy.

In BDtS all ith ad to do was wipe out a small centralized human colony. The kind of colony that could be obliterated with a pair of nukes anyway. It was also slowly dragged there by colonists unopposed and then hijacked by Batarian terrorists (I think, never purchased it myself and I'm just going off what I've read). It was supposed to be an artificial moon, yes?

Orbital supremacy isn't necessarily a prerequisite. Such an object would be unstoppable once it was pushed in the right direction unless acted on by an opposite force that pushes it away

I guess I should have said "space supremacy" since you need to attach huge boosters to asteroids to steer them into collision courses. You're not just zipping up a big rock to smash it into the planet, you're adjusting the natural course of existing things so that instead of flying past the planet it will run into it. To do this you have to be unopposed in space, because otherwise they can just fly up and blow up the engines you've attached to it once they notice that it's being steered off course, or intercept you before you even manage to get there. If you're controlling the space around the planet then you almost certainly have control of their orbital space too, since in MEvers practically anything that can make orbit can zip around the solar system. For this not to be true there would have to be like, massive ass orbital battle stations that couldn't move. Although this doesn't seem a good idea because objects whose position you know at all times and can accurate predict in the future are highly vulnerable to long range fire and "drop out of FTL right on top of you" style attacks. I'm not sure if there's any precedent for this kind of thing in MEverse, the only orbital battle stations I know of are on Tuchanka, and they're designed to keep the Krogan in, not defend it from external assaults.

As for the quote, well, it's been a while since I exhausted all of Legion's dialogue options, but I believe if you take the upper-right option at 0:25 in this video Legion will say something to the effect of both sides being relentless and brutal opponents to one another.

I think you forgot to put the link in

[AkiKishi]

Because Geth don't see individuals the outlook is different. When Legion is reporting back after Tal's loyalty mission. Although those crimes were commited by an individual Quarian (or a group). The Gether would see it as a crime of "Quarrion" or "Creator" the collective.

The Geths actions may seem like over reactions. But it's all very logical based on how they view the world. It also makes them quite dangerous if a group like Cerberus were to go after them.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 03 février 2011 - 09:07 .

[Schneidend]

adam_grif wrote...

In BDtS all ith ad to do was wipe out a small centralized human colony. The kind of colony that could be obliterated with a pair of nukes anyway. It was also slowly dragged there by colonists unopposed and then hijacked by Batarian terrorists (I think, never purchased it myself and I'm just going off what I've read). It was supposed to be an artificial moon, yes?

They were going to mine it in orbit and then use it for some kind of space station, if I recall correctly. The asteroid was also large enough to kill all life on the entire planet and make it uninhabitable for centuries. One of the human engineers who survives the whole ordeal tells you as much. Further, it wasn't just a "small centralized human colony." The main settlement was metropolitan and there were smaller outlying settlements.

Orbital supremacy isn't necessarily a prerequisite. Such an object would be unstoppable once it was pushed in the right direction unless acted on by an opposite force that pushes it away

I guess I should have said "space supremacy" since you need to attach huge boosters to asteroids to steer them into collision courses. You're not just zipping up a big rock to smash it into the planet, you're adjusting the natural course of existing things so that instead of flying past the planet it will run into it. To do this you have to be unopposed in space, because otherwise they can just fly up and blow up the engines you've attached to it once they notice that it's being steered off course, or intercept you before you even manage to get there. If you're controlling the space around the planet then you almost certainly have control of their orbital space too, since in MEvers practically anything that can make orbit can zip around the solar system. For this not to be true there would have to be like, massive ass orbital battle stations that couldn't move. Although this doesn't seem a good idea because objects whose position you know at all times and can accurate predict in the future are highly vulnerable to long range fire and "drop out of FTL right on top of you" style attacks. I'm not sure if there's any precedent for this kind of thing in MEverse, the only orbital battle stations I know of are on Tuchanka, and they're designed to keep the Krogan in, not defend it from external assaults.

The geth could quickly build a booster installation on an asteroid like the one in Bring Down the Sky in a remote portion of quarian space and then direct it at a planet. Space is a huge place. The quarians weren't just flying around inspecting every part of their territory at all times while simultaneously fighting an unstoppable horde of synthetic killing machines.

I think you forgot to put the link in

Pfffffffft....I did. Because it's late, probably, lol. Sorry. Here it be: 

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

adam_grif wrote...

In BDtS all ith ad to do was wipe out a small centralized human colony. The kind of colony that could be obliterated with a pair of nukes anyway. It was also slowly dragged there by colonists unopposed and then hijacked by Batarian terrorists (I think, never purchased it myself and I'm just going off what I've read). It was supposed to be an artificial moon, yes?

They were going to mine it in orbit and then use it for some kind of space station, if I recall correctly. The asteroid was also large enough to kill all life on the entire planet and make it uninhabitable for centuries. One of the human engineers who survives the whole ordeal tells you as much. Further, it wasn't just a "small centralized human colony." The main settlement was metropolitan and there were smaller outlying settlements.

That is a centralized colony, when the majority of the population is in one place and there are only small settlements outside. And besides the fanciful literary interpretation of non-nuclear nuclear winter, it really doesn't invalidate Adam's point: the colony could pretty much be wiped out by a few nukes anyway.

The geth could quickly build a booster installation on an asteroid like the one in Bring Down the Sky in a remote portion of quarian space and then direct it at a planet. Space is a huge place. The quarians weren't just flying around inspecting every part of their territory at all times while simultaneously fighting an unstoppable horde of synthetic killing machines.

And then the Quarians could just shoot it off at range during the transit, canceling the needed acceleration or re-directing it.

That's how we saved the day in Bring Down the Sky: by cutting off the boosters, we didn't stop the asteroid, but merely changed what it's course would have been. This is why Adam's point about needing space supremacy is still valid: to do a Bring Down the Sky operation, you not only need to be able to reach an asteroid, you need to protect it during the transit to prevent interference.

[azerSheppard]

adam_grif wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

adam_grif wrote...
No.

Well that was easy. Systmatically exterminating the Quarian people, and only failing because their last remaining survivors fled is what we would consider a war crime.

Both sides went to excessive and brutal extremes to try and take each other out completely.

Genocide is not acceptable just because the other side wanted to do it to you first. The geth should have defeated the Quarian miliatary then fled. At worst, you could justify the occupation of the Quarian civilian population and maybe even forcibly relocating them (maybe). You can't justify total obliteration.

This reminds me of the Walking Dead, the part where cannibals are caught by the main char, they get brutally murdered. Now there was no need for a "brutal" death, there was however a need to exterminate the cannibals, because they would not stop until they killed and ate the other party.

Just like how the Quarians won't stop until all geth are dead.

When someone will go to any lenght to kill you, you won't be thinking about "genocide", you will engage in MK to save your ass. 
Just like how many ****'s where plainly executed with a so-called "trial", it was just a sysyemathic annahilation, exactly what they did their fellow man.

[EternalPink]

in BDtS they take over a rock that was being moved to a safe orbit so they only have the time from it being captured to you arriving to apply accelleration to it, if you started with a rock further out and applied accelleration for a longer time by the time it reached the star system it would have to much force for you to stop/deflect it, so space supremacy wouldn't matter.

You would however need to get your maths right since a tiny error would result in you hitting a different planet or missing.

As to the geth they awoke into sentience to find there creator trying to kill them, not a very nice welcome to the universe/sentience, so a simplistic answer of kill all quarians is justified to me considering they would have been very simplistic to begin with.

Now that they have had 300 years of sentience to consider there actions and have the intellect to understand what they did, why they did it, the consequences of what they choose to do and potentially other solutions it wouldn't be.

Modifié par EternalPink, 03 février 2011 - 12:27 .

[008Zulu]

STG wrote...

It was self defense that went too far. So yes and no.

In the fight for survival, there are no rules.

Did the Quarians watch too much western sci-fi? What was their reason for thinking that the Geth would wipe them out just because the gained self awareness? Only reason I can think of is that the Quarians severely mistreated and outright abused the Geth. I cant help but reason that the Quarians brought it on themselves.

The Geth could have chosen to pursue and exterminate the Quarrians, but they chose to be the better man and let them go. They knew then that wiping out an entire species was wrong.

[adam_grif]

Just like how the Quarians won't stop until all geth are dead.

No, it's not like that, because cannibals made a lifestyle choice to eat other humans to live. Quarians don't need to kill Geth to live, peace absolutely can be brokered. The galaxy was and still is plenty big enough for both of them to peacefully coexist.



The very act of the Geth showing mercy to Quarians and not attacking non-military targets makes the Quarians more likely to treat the Geth as equals who can be reasoned with, as opposed to just another race of genocidal machines who just want all Quarians dead. What I see all around here is a bunch of people who are using their 20-20 hindsight to go "yep, those geth were totally innocent and the Quarians were evil for doing what they did", which is total bull. Yeah, the Quarians misunderstood the nature of the Geth as well as their motivations, but the geth made no attempt to be understood. It's not sufficient for them to just throw their hands up and shout "they started it!" At no point did they attempt diplomacy, and in the hundreds of years since the Geth uprisings not only have they made no attempt at diplomacy, they have also destroyed anybody who attempted to contact them, just for committing the crime of entering Geth territory.



The Quarians understood the Geth as a dangerous threat that needed to be destroyed at any cost because that's how the Geth were behaving, and the Geth made no attempts to indicate that they were anything but. This is why it's difficult to blame the Quarians retrospectively - they were rational beings acting on the information they had. It's funny that in the video someone linked above, the Geth say that the Quarians have to meet them halfway for peace, because the Geth refuse to even try.

The Geth could have chosen to pursue and exterminate the Quarrians, but they chose to be the better man and let them go. They knew then that wiping out an entire species was wrong.

Yeah, even though they indiscriminately slaughtered tens of billions of civilians, they're the good guys because they didn't go out of their way to slaughter the last couple of thousand after they retreated? Try again. You have zero evidence to suggest that this is even the reason why they didn't kill them, as opposed to just because they didn't know where they had run away to, or because they fled to council space and the Geth pursuing meant triggering a war they could never win.



But even if it was, it doesn't make them "good". By any stretch of the imagination.

In the fight for survival, there are no rules.

Right, so when the Geth had won the fight to survival and could go wherever they wanted and had the Quarians military well and truly defeated, and they decided to just keep fighting them instead of negotiating a peace, that was... what exactly?

[DarthSliver]

Schneidend wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Oh, if you havn't done so Bring Legion to the Flotila , treason for live Geth parts lol , Look behind you.

Also, Tali's recruitment mission.

Kal'Reegar: ...! There's a geth! Right behind you!

Legion: We will fight the geth in this location.

Haha i plan to do that on my renegede shepard, hey i cant openly allow the crew to die with paragon. But than i could save Tali's Loyalty mission for after the Derelict Reaper. I was able to do 2 missions before the crew was kidnapped after activating Legion.

[shatteredstar56]

The geth are justified in fighting for their freedom, however I don't think they are justified in keeping the quarian homeworld. I think they're keeping it because it would give a huge advantage the quarians, and they can keep them at bay otherwise. The geth don't need to live in any one environment, they are machines and can live wherever they want.



I feel bad that they're controlled by the reapers, to an extent, but they did follow that road and become that way. If the geth are to be treated as a race, in some point at the future, then they should be held accountable for all actions.

[Schneidend]

Edit: The forums are really starting to ****** me off when my posts don't even appear and I end up posting them twice.

Modifié par Schneidend, 03 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[Big I]

The geth were justified in fighting back, but they went too far (unless it turn out the quarians wiped out their own populations through nukes or something).

[Schneidend]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That is a centralized colony, when the majority of the population is in one place and there are only small settlements outside. And besides the fanciful literary interpretation of non-nuclear nuclear winter, it really doesn't invalidate Adam's point: the colony could pretty much be wiped out by a few nukes anyway.

Big asteroid impacts annihilate planetary life and cause climate shifts. There's nothing literary about that. It's something that has factually occured at least once. Besides, I was only correcting Adam's inaccuracies about Bring Down the Sky, IIRC.

And then the Quarians could just shoot it off at range during the transit, canceling the needed acceleration or re-directing it.

That's how we saved the day in Bring Down the Sky: by cutting off the boosters, we didn't stop the asteroid, but merely changed what it's course would have been. This is why Adam's point about needing space supremacy is still valid: to do a Bring Down the Sky operation, you not only need to be able to reach an asteroid, you need to protect it during the transit to prevent interference.

And that's why I said the geth had to defend the asteroid from quarian interference in my original post that Adam was replying to. This doesn't require orbital dominance. They could easily do it as a suicide run since they have no need to fear death.

[Whatever42]

Geth are computer programs. Quarians are a threat and logical response is to remove the threat in the most expedient manner possible. That Quarians even still exist at all likely means that the Geth see some purpose to the existance of the Quarians more important than their continuing threat.



It could be as simple that the resources that would be required to finish off the Quarians are not worth the result (especially with the Reapers stalking about). It could be that the Geth think that the Quarians may provide some value to them in the future. It could be that by finish the job that the Geth are worried that they would be plunged into conflicts with other organics.



But justified does't really come into it, I don't believe.

[DPSSOC]

adam_grif wrote...

In the fight for survival, there are no rules.

Right, so when the Geth had won the fight to survival and could go wherever they wanted and had the Quarians military well and truly defeated, and they decided to just keep fighting them instead of negotiating a peace, that was... what exactly?

I believe I said it earlier but it bears repeating.  When your enemy desires nothing but your extinction the fight for survival doesn't end when they're beaten it ends when they're destroyed.

And while it's true the Geth made no attempts at brokering peace did the Quarians?  Neither side was willing to sit down and settle for peace and we can't even be sure the Geth intelligence was sophisticated enough to grasp the concept.  Another problem is we don't have any good info on the War.  Maybe the Geth did offer terms of surrender/peace and the Quarians just didn't accept them or vice-versa.

[Dean_the_Young]

Schneidend wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That is a centralized colony, when the majority of the population is in one place and there are only small settlements outside. And besides the fanciful literary interpretation of non-nuclear nuclear winter, it really doesn't invalidate Adam's point: the colony could pretty much be wiped out by a few nukes anyway.

Big asteroid impacts annihilate planetary life and cause climate shifts. There's nothing literary about that. It's something that has factually occured at least once. Besides, I was only correcting Adam's inaccuracies about Bring Down the Sky, IIRC.

It's also occured in circumstances far different than the one at hand.

And that's why I said the geth had to defend the asteroid from quarian interference in my original post that Adam was replying to. This doesn't require orbital dominance. They could easily do it as a suicide run since they have no need to fear death.

The fact that it requires an extensive amount of time makes it require sustained orbital dominance to not be disarmed.

Fearing death has nothing to do with it.

[hawat333]

DarthSliver wrote...

Quarians had a chance to keep peace with the Geth, instead they choose to attack the Geth and shut them down. The Quarians in a way end up building their own Skynet without realizing it, just this Skynet only attacked after be provoked.