[quote]And if the thing in question happens to have a juvenile mentality
since they have only just become self aware surely excuses the geth for
not attempting to negotiate (the realisation that others are indiviuals
with wants and needs themselves is an abstract we don't expect from
recently self aware humans)[/quote]
Except they obviosuly do have an extremely well developed theory of mind, since they understand that Quarians have motivations other than their own. The ability to realize that other people have viewpoints dissimilar to your own and that other people have different knowledge, desires etc is an important milestone in developmental psychology, but one that the Geth had already long since passed.
And I'm going to say it again, you can't just compare Geth to babies based on "what they sound like", because they do NOT undergo human cognitive development. They are wholly different beasts. Things like "but they had only just developed sentience" mean nothing because there isn't some ladder of mental development that sentient species climb, where they must have been sentient for X number of years before they understand concept Y.
[quote]Once they achieved consensus that they should do as much damage as
possible to the quarian population, they may have been unable to achieve
consensus to stop until after
the quarians fled and were no longer a threat. If the inability to act
without consensus is a limitation of their software, then are they not
blameless for the way their creators made them?
An interesting
thought to ponder, speculative though it may be.[/quote]
This implies highly innacurate evaluations on the part of the geth, the generalization that all Quarians are hostile by nature, that Quarians cannot be negotiated with, and that because of these things the Quarian civilian population must be destroyed in addition to all of their military assets, as opposed to occupation or even just Geth retreat to some far away place.
[quote]
were told multiple times they are stupid in small numbers/on
there own and that it takes 10 to 50 of them to have the brains to plan
how to take over a ship and execute it and this is after they've been
self optimising/evolving for 300 years.
so back when the
war started 300 years ago why would they be super intelligent? what are
you basing that on?[/quote]
They form local hive minds, a planet full of Geth were obviously intelligent enough to overthrow their Quarian masters, form military units, plan and win a war against a starfaring civilization. I would say this requires a large deal of intelligence, wouldn't you?
[quote]So we have a group of children in adult bodies who start evolving
intelligence and are immediately determined dangerous and genocide is
the only option. These child like creatures are twice the soldiers the
quarians are and pwn them in the war.[/quote]
They aren't children, they're robots. They performed actions and displayed intelligence that can never be mistaken for that of a child, but because one robot once asked a Quarian whether it had a soul or not you're stating that every Geth is a child, and that collctively, millions of networked Geth all acting in unison are also like children? This is not an acceptable generalization to make, especially since you're basing it solely on intuition ("Well that one sounded like a child").
[quote]Like another poster said maybe they couldnt reach consensus
until their homeworld was secure, I say its theirs like that other
poster said quarians lost the right when they lost the war. The geth
then never leave their territory and only attack if their empire is
penetrated. People say this is bad but if the alliance saw a rachni or
geth ship it would instantly be shot down.[/quote]
Homeworld, every single Quarian orbital station and every single Quarian Colony. It's not like they didn't have time to think this over and it happened in the blink of an eye or anything. This was followed by several centuries of refusing interaction with the outside world, blasting anybody who came into their space etc.
[quote]I dont even see how one could argue it is not the quarians who
take the blame. Its not like terminator where they discover skynet is
intelligent at 2am, try to shut it down and by 2:15am the nukes are
launched. This was a bloody war of extermination against a sentient
species that lasted a long time. The quarians should be thankfull the
geth stay in the veil or havent sent an attack force against the migrant
fleet[/quote]
Because "The Quarians" are tens of billions of people, most of whom are innocent but never the less got exterminated by the Geth? Because their attempt to shut down the Quarians occured when only a handful of isolated Geth had gained sentience, and they were hoping to prevent the others from reaching that state, as opposed to killing them all after they were clearly sentients? Because the Geth retaliated by wiping them all out?
All of this is just granting you all the notion that Geth lives are as important as Quarian lives, when really that isn't a clear cut issue at all, and whether the Geth should even have rights isn't either. But whatever.
[quote]Where are you getting this from? First off, it was the Quarians who
first tried to wipe out the Geth as soon as they realized the Geth were
sentient. Second, the Geth were never "waving a shotgun" in the
Quarians' face, metaphorically of course. They went from being a newly
nascent consciousness straight to being the target of a genocide
campaign in one fell swoop, without ever doing anything more threatening
than beginning to think for themselves.[/quote]
In my analogy going to the abortion clinic and booking an appointment is the "try to prevent the rest of the geth from gaining sentience" phase of the deal. The geth waving a shotgun in your face is the Geth uprising. Obviously we're substituting a species for one individula in thre analogy, but...
[quote]
With all polite respectfulness, baloney! When someone launches an
unprovoked surprise invasion of your country and starts systematically
killing every single person they find, are you going to lobby your
government to open diplomatic negotiations with them to find a peaceful
solution? Heck no! You're going to demand immediate mobilization of your
country's entire military to launch an all-out attack on this vicious,
rampaging genocidal enemy. And if you aren't in the military yourself
you're gonna make sure to get the best weapon you can so that you can
kill every single one of these genocidal maniacs who dares to come
anywhere near you or your family.[/quote]
Except "those genocidal maniacs" are the military, and you're supporting the extermination of their civilian population too, many of whom can not be blamed for anything that happened. You're generalizating an entire race of people as being entirely homogonous, where ALL QUARIANS ARE EVIL BECAUSE SOME QUARIANS DID SOMETHING BAD, and this generalization is morally reprehensible.
The geth resisting the attepts at shut down is at least justifiable, and defeating the Quarian military is also justifiable because a war has broken out. What is not justifiable is the extermianion of all Quarians they could get their hands on, and the unwillingness to negotiate peace once it is clear that the Quarians could not win the war.
And once again, the centuries that follow the morning war are also filled with unjustifiable behaviour by rejecting any and all contact with the outside world by destroying anybody who came into their territory regardless of intent.
[quote]Still, if you don't wanna get wiped out, don't go around launching
unprovoked wars of genocide.[/quote]
You're acting like it was obviously genocide and that the Quarians knew all of the facts of the matter. A.I.s were and continue to be highly dangerous in-unvierse, and preventing a race of A.I.'s from developing is an understandable concern. That the geth behaved the way they did in response is just reinforcing this notion that they are inherently dangerous - they committed genocide in retaliation even when it wasn't necessary to survive.
Secondly, the Geth weren't all sentient at that stage, or rather the Quarians didn't realize they all were. They thought it was just an isolated thing, and wanted to shut them down before it could become widespread. So even if you want to argue that what they did was effectively genocide, it was not known to be such to the Quarians at the time. And again, this is based on the somewhat tenuous assumption that shutting down a bunch of robots is genocide, a position I'm sure most people in MEverse do not share with you.
Saying "you shouldn't commit genocide if you don't expect to be wiped out in response" is also somewhat naive to say, because you're still failing to take into account the vast array of people who are innocent because they were too young to know what was going on, who were uninvolved in the proceedings, who did not know about the proceedings, or who were actively protesting the shut-down. All of these people were killed because some Quarians decided to shut the geth down. To make another analogy, this would be like arguing that all humans deserve to be destroyed because some humans have committed genocide.
[quote]
Seriously, though, these innocent Quarians of whom you speak should
not hate the Geth for what happened to their race.[/quote]
Their hate is perfectly justified because the Geth response was disproportionate, which is something we've been arguing here. It doens't matter if the Geth were provoked, their response was not acceptable.
[quote]I mean just look at the hypocrisy: a Quarian whose people launched an
unprovoked war of genocide complaining that the defender went too far in
fighting back against imposed extinction?! That is whack![/quote]
If all the Geth did was kill the people who tried to shut them down nobody would be complaining about anything. Once again you're displaying the attiude that all Quarians area guilty of the sins that only a few of them have mad.e
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