368 réponses à ce sujet

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Which is what I mean. They stopped attacking when they left the Quarians former terriotory, not immediately after they fled the homeworld.

Not seeing your point here. Are you trying to say that because hostilities did not completely end until the Quarians had fled beyond the Veil that this somehow proves that extermination of non-combatants took place during the war? Or that it proves that the Geth attacked the evacuees on the flotilla at some point? I am missing something here. What is the significance of the point you are making here.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Which is what I mean. They stopped attacking when they left the Quarians former terriotory, not immediately after they fled the homeworld.

Not seeing your point here. Are you trying to say that because hostilities did not completely end until the Quarians had fled beyond the Veil that this somehow proves that extermination of non-combatants took place during the war? Or that it proves that the Geth attacked the evacuees on the flotilla at some point? I am missing something here. What is the significance of the point you are making here.

The Geth could have stopped attacking them and they didn't. That is my point.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Geth could have stopped attacking them and they didn't. That is my point.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Fighting =/= attacking. Fighting=/= fighting with evacuees. (See other thread.)

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Geth could have stopped attacking them and they didn't. That is my point.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Fighting =/= attacking. Fighting=/= fighting with evacuees. (See other thread.)

What does "=/=" mean?

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What does "=/=" mean?

It means "is not equal to". Basically I was pointing out that nothing in the source material you are speaking of actually says what you are asserting. In short, your source does not support your argument.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What does "=/=" mean?

It means "is not equal to". Basically I was pointing out that nothing in the source material you are speaking of actually says what you are asserting. In short, your source does not support your argument.

Fighting does equal with attacking. In fight between boxers, they are both attacking each other.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Fighting does equal with attacking. In fight between boxers, they are both attacking each other.

Fighting = you engaged in conflict
Attacking = you initiating conflict.

Theres a bit of difference

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Fighting does equal with attacking. In fight between boxers, they are both attacking each other.

Fighting = you engaged in conflict
Attacking = you initiating conflict.

Theres a bit of difference

No, that's being an aggressor.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 05 février 2011 - 06:42 .

[STG]

When geth woke up they were primitive and they were also young, with a mind of a child. First memory for them is their "Gods" trying to wipe them out. They fought back out of a natural instinct all life has, self-preservation.



I assume by that point they didn't even understand "life" that organics possess. A person dying is a sad event to us because all it was is gone forever, but geth does not live in that same way. When we kill one geth trooper it's easy to assume that we just killed a single individual because that is what we are and we judge based on our experience. In reality all we did was destroy programs while geth itself still exists and they never felt pain, sorrow or loss when that platform was destroyed. If they viewed life in that way then what they did in Morning War can at least partially be justified. Because in our eyes they killed millions of people but in their eyes they destroyed enemy's mobile platforms and caused it to retreat, never realizing how many actual individuals died.



After that they were hostile towards all organics. A normal stance considering their very first experience with our kind.



Real question should be, were the quarians justified? They also acted out of self-preservation but they also acted out of fear and their actions were based on assumptions. They didn't try to shut the geth down because they were actively hostile but because they one day might be. I could understand using a preemptive strike if your "enemy" gave you a reason but until that point geth never did.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

STG wrote...

When geth woke up they were primitive and they were also young, with a mind of a child. First memory for them is their "Gods" trying to wipe them out. They fought back out of a natural instinct all life has, self-preservation.

I assume by that point they didn't even understand "life" that organics possess. A person dying is a sad event to us because all it was is gone forever, but geth does not live in that same way. When we kill one geth trooper it's easy to assume that we just killed a single individual because that is what we are and we judge based on our experience. In reality all we did was destroy programs while geth itself still exists and they never felt pain, sorrow or loss when that platform was destroyed. If they viewed life in that way then what they did in Morning War can at least partially be justified. Because in our eyes they killed millions of people but in their eyes they destroyed enemy's mobile platforms and caused it to retreat, never realizing how many actual individuals died.

After that they were hostile towards all organics. A normal stance considering their very first experience with our kind.

Real question should be, were the quarians justified? They also acted out of self-preservation but they also acted out of fear and their actions were based on assumptions. They didn't try to shut the geth down because they were actively hostile but because they one day might be. I could understand using a preemptive strike if your "enemy" gave you a reason but until that point geth never did.

By our standards? No. By the laws of galactic civilization in their world? Yes.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Fighting does equal with attacking. In fight between boxers, they are both attacking each other.

Fighting = you engaged in conflict
Attacking = you initiating conflict.

Theres a bit of difference

No, that's being an aggressor.

yeah its basically the same thing. If you're just fighting, you may not have a choice, and have to fight in order to survive.  If you're attacking you're choosing to fight, you're doing everything you can to to get into the fight, starting it if you have to.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
By our standards? No. By the laws of galactic civilization in their world? Yes.

where in the game does the council say genocide is legal?

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 06:45 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Fighting does equal with attacking. In fight between boxers, they are both attacking each other.

Fighting = you engaged in conflict
Attacking = you initiating conflict.

Theres a bit of difference

No, that's being an aggressor.

yeah its basically the same thing. If you're just fighting, you may not have a choice, and have to fight in order to survive.  If you're attacking you're choosing to fight, you're doing everything you can to to get into the fight, starting it if you have to.

It's called the a war, so both sides fought. That being said, I don't think the Quarians wouldn't have abandoned their homeworld and colonies if the Geth never attacked.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't think the Quarians wouldn't have abandoned their homeworld and colonies if the Geth never attacked.

neither do i, but fighting isn't the same as attacking. And im still not convinced the geth had enough awareness to be held at fault. People are too willing to put their own level of awareness on an intelligence that has only just achieved sentience.

[008Zulu]

Slayer299 wrote...
Nope, sorry, I can't agree with you at all with that conclusion that it was "mass self-defense". That is just a convenient label to whitewash/justify their genocide. Using that label says that it justifies the murder of children and no, there is ZERO reasoning that can excuse that. Period. None. Whatsoever. At. All.

The Quarians overreacted in trying to deactivate all the Geth, but the Geth went about a systematic genocide of ALL Quarians, and not the military forces/factories/bases of the Quarians. 

Genocide is premeditated, 11 billion Quarians simultaneously dying at the hands of their (probably) mistreated artificial servants (whom they intended to murder) is self defense. I would submit that it is the Quarians who are guilty of (attempted) genocide, not the Geth.

If the Geth wanted the Quarrians erased from the galaxy, then they wouldnt have stopped after driving them off their homeworlds.

[jeweledleah]

008Zulu wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...
Nope, sorry, I can't agree with you at all with that conclusion that it was "mass self-defense". That is just a convenient label to whitewash/justify their genocide. Using that label says that it justifies the murder of children and no, there is ZERO reasoning that can excuse that. Period. None. Whatsoever. At. All.

The Quarians overreacted in trying to deactivate all the Geth, but the Geth went about a systematic genocide of ALL Quarians, and not the military forces/factories/bases of the Quarians. 

Genocide is premeditated, 11 billion Quarians simultaneously dying at the hands of their (probably) mistreated artificial servants (whom they intended to murder) is self defense. I would submit that it is the Quarians who are guilty of (attempted) genocide, not the Geth.

If the Geth wanted the Quarrians erased from the galaxy, then they wouldnt have stopped after driving them off their homeworlds.

very much this.

genocide requires intent and action to continue extermination of the species untill its no more. I want to compare this to real life example, but I'm not allowed :/  either way, for Geth perpetuating genocide on quarians, they would have to keep chasing them and attacking the flotilla as well as individual quarians outside of it, untill all quarians were dead.  Geth did no such thing.  they only fought within the confines of the original quarian space.

[STG]

wulf3n wrote...

where in the game does the council say genocide is legal?

Nowhere. However geth are still AI. Very advanced and with sentience of their own but AI nonetheless. I assume that council law never prohibited destruction of AI platforms. Quarians probably didn't understand how advanced the geth have become by that point.

Just like the geth viewed the quarians as walking platforms, quarians viewed them as machines.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Fighting does equal with attacking. In fight between boxers, they are both attacking each other.

Fighting = you engaged in conflict
Attacking = you initiating conflict.

Theres a bit of difference

No, that's being an aggressor.

yeah its basically the same thing. If you're just fighting, you may not have a choice, and have to fight in order to survive.  If you're attacking you're choosing to fight, you're doing everything you can to to get into the fight, starting it if you have to.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
By our standards? No. By the laws of galactic civilization in their world? Yes.

where in the game does the council say genocide is legal?

How is it genocide? The Quarians allowed the Geth to become sentient AIs which is illegal by Council standards. The Quarians tried to fix this. So if the Quarians succeeded, would it have been viewed as genocide or would it have been viewed as fixing a mistake and a crime?

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
How is it genocide? The Quarians allowed the Geth to become sentient AIs which is illegal by Council standards. The Quarians tried to fix this. So if the Quarians succeeded, would it have been viewed as genocide or would it have been viewed as fixing a mistake and a crime?

How they viewed it is irrelevant. They did what they did, and that was genocide. There are no "by our standards" as genocide isn't up for interpretation. The quarians may not have seen it as wrong, but that doesn't mean that they aren't at fault, that just means they're morally f****d up.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

It's called the a war, so both sides fought. That being said, I don't think the Quarians wouldn't have abandoned their homeworld and colonies if the Geth never attacked.

But you not thinking it happened that way does not mean it didn't happen that way. The lore says that 98% of the offensives during the war were launched by the Quarians. That does not leave a lot of wiggle room to blame all the Quarians' casualties on Geth attacks. The lore also states that the Geth deployed mobile platforms to clean up all the damage and toxic afteraffects of the war on Rannoch to make it habitable once more for the Quarians. If the planet was so toxic that it was uninhabitable, and if 98% of the offensive actions were Quarian initiated, it stands to reason that there is a 98% chance that the Quarians were responsible for rendering their own planet uninhabitable, or that 98% of the damage was caused by the Quarians. That is more than ample reason for them to abandon that homeworld and does not involve any Geth attacks to explain it.

You keep repeating your assertion over and over that the Geth were trying to systematically exterminate the Quarians, and yet you still have yet to provide one piece of evidence that supports that claim more than it supports my assertion that the Quarians' mindless aggression and the war environment itself were most likely the principle causes of the Quarians' near extinction.

[Pro_Consul]

STG wrote...

Just like the geth viewed the quarians as walking platforms, quarians viewed them as machines.

Actually not, and therein lies the root moral problem with the Quarians. They tried to exterminate the Geth precisely because they realized they had gone beyond being merely machines and become sentient.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
How is it genocide? The Quarians allowed the Geth to become sentient AIs which is illegal by Council standards. The Quarians tried to fix this. So if the Quarians succeeded, would it have been viewed as genocide or would it have been viewed as fixing a mistake and a crime?

How they viewed it is irrelevant. They did what they did, and that was genocide. There are no "by our standards" as genocide isn't up for interpretation. The quarians may not have seen it as wrong, but that doesn't mean that they aren't at fault, that just means they're morally f****d up.

According to US, they are. Who are we to judge them by their choice in morals?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

It's called the a war, so both sides fought. That being said, I don't think the Quarians wouldn't have abandoned their homeworld and colonies if the Geth never attacked.

But you not thinking it happened that way does not mean it didn't happen that way. The lore says that 98% of the offensives during the war were launched by the Quarians. That does not leave a lot of wiggle room to blame all the Quarians' casualties on Geth attacks. The lore also states that the Geth deployed mobile platforms to clean up all the damage and toxic afteraffects of the war on Rannoch to make it habitable once more for the Quarians. If the planet was so toxic that it was uninhabitable, and if 98% of the offensive actions were Quarian initiated, it stands to reason that there is a 98% chance that the Quarians were responsible for rendering their own planet uninhabitable, or that 98% of the damage was caused by the Quarians. That is more than ample reason for them to abandon that homeworld and does not involve any Geth attacks to explain it.

You keep repeating your assertion over and over that the Geth were trying to systematically exterminate the Quarians, and yet you still have yet to provide one piece of evidence that supports that claim more than it supports my assertion that the Quarians' mindless aggression and the war environment itself were most likely the principle causes of the Quarians' near extinction.

What about the Quarian colonies? The Geth overran those.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

What about the Quarian colonies? The Geth overran those.

According to what source? As near as I can tell that is merely your own assertion. I can find no mention of the Geth attacking a single Quarian colony during the war. Please post your source, or at least a link. Thx.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
According to US, they are. Who are we to judge them by their choice in morals?

Morality is pretty straightforward and concrete in most cases, especially when it comes to genocide. 

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

According to US, they are. Who are we to judge them by their choice in morals?

More double standard. Nice. You are unwilling to arrogate to yourself the right to judge the morality of the Quarians attempt to exterminate the Geth. But you only too willing to condemn the Geth for an alleged attempt to do the same to the Quarians, and that even despite your inability to show that any such attempt took place.