450 réponses à ce sujet

[V-rex]

James2912 wrote...

I didn't call you a n a z i.

I know you didn't call ME anything because I haven't been involved in this conversation so far, so how could you have? I was calling you out on accusing people who liked the Geth as being 'N*zi's'. Taken from your post on page eight:

I don't consider computers to be alive so I would side with the
Quarians. Plus a computer civilization might decide with cold logic to
wipe out humanity as a threat knowing our history.

Plus I agree
with GeneralUser, the death of billions is not justifiable. The Geth
comitted genocide they could have taken prisoners instead they killed
every, man, woman, child, toddler well you get the idea
People who support Geth=N A Z I S

It can still easily be attributed to accusing people who like Geth as being N A Z I S. As that seems to be literally exactly what you are saying in this regard, and that's what I was calling you out on.

I called the Geth space n a z is.

I don't see how the Quarians are any LESS N A Z I in this regard considering they too attempted genocide and have been continuing to plan all out genocidal war on the Geth for three centuries now.
If anything both sides are in the same hot seat, equally being dicks to an equal degree.

And you are fanatical in your defense of the Geth look how much you have written on the topic!

Ask anyone who knows me on the Bioware Social Network, anyone who knows me well enough would know that I am a notorious Wall-o-Text producer.
Seriously though, you think THIS is making a huge response, you should see how I respond when someon starts accusing Ashley of being racist.
Makes this wall look like a footnote.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Also the Quarians don't have better ships than anyone. Sure they outnumber, but note that not every ship in the Quarians fleet is prepped for war. Some are only prepped for defense.

[Pro_Consul]

James2912 wrote...

How else did the Quarian homeworld go from a population of 2 billion Quarrians to 17 million after the war?

Famine. Disease. Collateral damage from friendly use of WMDs. Radiation sickness. Disease. Collateral damage from enemy use of WMDs in retaliatory strikes. Disease. Radiation sickness. Famine. Freezing to death in nuclear winter caused by use of WMDs. Disease.

You should get the general picture. There are plenty of ways, absent any genocidal campaign of extermination on the part of the Geth, that the organic population of Rannoch could be reduced to a small fraction of its original 2 billion. And then one must consider the evacuation. How many evacuees would they really have ships to lift in that exodus? What would be the fate of those left behind? (Hint: Disease. Famine.) It is entirely conceivable that the near extinction of the Quarian race could have been little more than the inevitable result of their starting, and losing, a planetwide total war, one in which there were no clear battle lines and in which they themselves were both the instigators and then the ones who refused to cease launching new offensives despite numerous breaks in the fighting. They shattered their own planetary infrastructure with their singleminded determination to keep attacking the Geth no matter the cost. And because of that the cost is completely on their own heads. There is no need to assume any kind of genocidal, systematic extermination process in order to explain the near extinction of Rannoch's original organic population.

James2912 wrote...

Genocide is never right the Quarians were wrong to try it on the Geth however the Allies didn't turn around and send all the germans to concentration camps because of what they did to the Jews, two wrongs do not make a right.

Assumes facts not in evidence (see above). If the Geth were actually engaged in genocide, then why did they take no steps to stop the evacuation of the Quarians? Why did they take no steps to intercept and destroy the flotilla before it passed beyond the Veil? Why have they taken no steps to attack the flotilla in the 300 years since? Why have they devoted so many resources toward cleaning up and rehabilitating the shattered ecosphere of Rannoch to make it once more habitable by Quarians? And what does the fact that Rannoch NEEDED such rehabilitation in order to be habitable once more tell you about how the Quarian people died in the first place?

[James2912]

I wasn't talking to you. I meant to say People who support Geth, Geth= N A Z I that was a typo. I apologize.And on everything else I wasn't talking to you I was talking to the other person (I forgot their username).

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I misspelled some words (dammit). The Geth are the most advanced sentient species besides the Reapers. The Quarians are not. They are also less likely to threaten the galaxy because the other races have:

1) Better equipped soldiers
2) Better tech
3)Superior numbers

I'm not saying the quarians are going to try and start long wars, but they're past actions show they think only of themselves when they feel even slightly threatened, so as soon as resources start becoming scarce they'll most likely start taking them from council worlds. Whereas the geth have spent practically the entirety of their existence keeping to themselves.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I misspelled some words (dammit). The Geth are the most advanced sentient species besides the Reapers. The Quarians are not. They are also less likely to threaten the galaxy because the other races have:

1) Better equipped soldiers
2) Better tech
3)Superior numbers

I'm not saying the quarians are going to try and start long wars, but they're past actions show they think only of themselves when they feel even slightly threatened, so as soon as resources start becoming scarce they'll most likely start taking them from council worlds. Whereas the geth have spent practically the entirety of their existence keeping to themselves.

There is a good part of the galaxy that isn't Council space. They would more than likely go there as to avoid confrontation with the Council.

[wulf3n]

V-rex wrote...
If anything both sides are in the same hot seat, equally being dicks to an equal degree.

Not really, the geth are new to the whole being conscious thing, whereas the quarians have had plenty of time to develop morality yet haven't

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
There is a good part of the galaxy that isn't Council space. They would more than likely go there as to avoid confrontation with the Council.

Sure, but what happens when that's no longer an option? They already go into inhabited systems and take resources, so they have no problem stealing.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 05:16 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

V-rex wrote...
If anything both sides are in the same hot seat, equally being dicks to an equal degree.

Not really, the geth are new to the whole being conscious thing, whereas the quarians have had plenty of time to develop morality yet haven't

Who says that they haven't developed morality?

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Who says that they haven't developed morality?

Attempted genocide, Illegal AI research, No remorse for past actions, Theft. 

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

V-rex wrote...
If anything both sides are in the same hot seat, equally being dicks to an equal degree.

Not really, the geth are new to the whole being conscious thing, whereas the quarians have had plenty of time to develop morality yet haven't

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
There is a good part of the galaxy that isn't Council space. They would more than likely go there as to avoid confrontation with the Council.

Sure, but what happens when that's no longer an option? They already go into inhabited systems and take resources, so they have no problem stealing.

Where does it say they steal? I remember reading that they allowed themselves to be hired as cheap labor and that others didn't like it.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Who says that they haven't developed morality?

Attempted genocide, Illegal AI research, No remorse for past actions, Theft. 

That's just one event. And the present-day Quarians could also be angry that they have to live in suits and it could be clouding their judgement.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Where does it say they steal? I remember reading that they allowed themselves to be hired as cheap labor and that others didn't like it.

"Another means of resource income for the Fleet is from whatever system that the Migrant Fleet is passing through at the time; the quarians will strip-mine any promising planets for resources with well-trained efficiency. Any other races with industrial or corporate interests in that system will often offer a "gift" of ships, food, or other supplies to encourage the Fleet to leave. Usually, the Admiralty Board accepts the gift, as the Migrant Fleet is in no position to decline resources."

It's from the wiki, so i cant be 100% certain of its validity.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Where does it say they steal? I remember reading that they allowed themselves to be hired as cheap labor and that others didn't like it.

"Another means of resource income for the Fleet is from whatever system that the Migrant Fleet is passing through at the time; the quarians will strip-mine any promising planets for resources with well-trained efficiency. Any other races with industrial or corporate interests in that system will often offer a "gift" of ships, food, or other supplies to encourage the Fleet to leave. Usually, the Admiralty Board accepts the gift, as the Migrant Fleet is in no position to decline resources."

It's from the wiki, so i cant be 100% certain of its validity.

I don't think that's 100% true. I remember the game saying that other races try to keep the Migrant Fleet away because it has an "undesirable" look (I think).

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't think that's 100% true. I remember the game saying that other races try to keep the Migrant Fleet away because it has an "undesirable" look (I think).

Not a big deal, they've still done plenty of questionable things and show no remorse. "Sure we tried to kill off a new form of intelligence, but hey they were dangerous, i mean they didn't do anything threatening, but we couldn't keep using them as slaves or they'd rebel so what else were we supposed to do?"

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

There is a good part of the galaxy that isn't Council space. They would more than likely go there as to avoid confrontation with the Council.

For the most part that is where they have been, mostly because they are made so unwelcome most places within Council space. The sad truth is that there is no future for the Quarian people unless they do one of two things:

1. Bite bullet and colonize a new planet, accepting that it will be several generations before they can inhabit it without suits.

2. Grow up, swallow their pride and make real peace with the Geth, so that they can then return in safety to Rannoch, which the Geth have restored and preserved for them.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I don't think that's 100% true. I remember the game saying that other races try to keep the Migrant Fleet away because it has an "undesirable" look (I think).

Not a big deal, they've still done plenty of questionable things and show no remorse. "Sure we tried to kill off a new form of intelligence, but hey they were dangerous, i mean they didn't do anything threatening, but we couldn't keep using them as slaves or they'd rebel so what else were we supposed to do?"

The Quarians acted out of self-preservation. What they tried to do
was unnecessary, but understandable. But it still doesn't give the Geth a
right to almost completely exterminate the Quarians.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Who says that they haven't developed morality?

Three centuries after they tried to commit an unprovoked genocide and nearly became extinct as a result...and they are still planning ways to either exterminate the Geth or force them back into slavery. The prosecution rests.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Pro_Consul wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Who says that they haven't developed morality?

Three centuries after they tried to commit an unprovoked genocide and nearly became extinct as a result...and they are still planning ways to either exterminate the Geth or force them back into slavery. The prosecution rests.

The Quarians haven't been around for only three centuries. What about before then?

[wulf3n]

Pro_Consul wrote...
For the most part that is where they have been, mostly because they are made so unwelcome most places within Council space. The sad truth is that there is no future for the Quarian people unless they do one of two things:

1. Bite bullet and colonize a new planet, accepting that it will be several generations before they can inhabit it without suits.

2. Grow up, swallow their pride and make real peace with the Geth, so that they can then return in safety to Rannoch, which the Geth have restored and preserved for them.

I think their's plenty they could do without going to war.

Terraform a new planet with no bacteria, hire scientists to create a quarian super immune system.

This is why i don't like the whole quarian situation. They're in a universe where people can be effectively brought back from a severe case of death, and yet something as simple as engineering a beneficial bacteria that will protect them from most harmfull bacteria, has eluded them for 300 years, plus however many years they we're trying to colonize planets for.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians acted out of self-preservation. What they tried to do 
was unnecessary, but understandable.

It was an alarmist reaction, to their own prejudice. The geth showed no signs of hostility, and their is no proof they would have.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
But it still doesn't give the Geth a
right to almost completely exterminate the Quarians.

Im not saying the geth had the right to do what they did either, im saying they didn't know better given that they had just developed consciousness. I doubt the geth knew the difference between right and wrong, they were just reacting to an unprovoked attack.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians haven't been around for only three centuries. What about before then?

Before then they thought genocide was ok.

Modifié par wulf3n, 05 février 2011 - 05:39 .

[volus4life]

i would side with the quarians probably. the quarians have some sort of moral compass that allows them to identify with other organic races to a certain degree. if the geth start expanding outside of perseus veil, i'm not sure how they'll react to other organic races. the geth might be logical enough to have some peaceful coexistence, like how legion behaves. but it's also entirely possible they will try to build two trillions of themselves and try to take over the galaxy.

Modifié par volus4life, 05 février 2011 - 05:34 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Pro_Consul wrote...
For the most part that is where they have been, mostly because they are made so unwelcome most places within Council space. The sad truth is that there is no future for the Quarian people unless they do one of two things:

1. Bite bullet and colonize a new planet, accepting that it will be several generations before they can inhabit it without suits.

2. Grow up, swallow their pride and make real peace with the Geth, so that they can then return in safety to Rannoch, which the Geth have restored and preserved for them.

I think their's plenty they could do without going to war.

Terraform a new planet with no bacteria, hire scientists to create a quarian super immune system.

This is why i don't like the whole quarian situation. They're in a universe where people can be effectively brought back from a severe case of death, and yet something as simple as engineering a beneficial bacteria that will protect them from most harmfull bacteria, has eluded them for 300 years, plus however many years they we're trying to colonize planets for.

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
The Quarians haven't been around for only three centuries. What about before then?

Before then they thought genocide was ok.

I'm talking about before the Morning War.

[wulf3n]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm talking about before the Morning War.

I'm not sure i understand the point you're trying to make.
If they were willing to commit genocide at the time of the morning war, then theoretically they would have been willing to do it before then as well.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

wulf3n wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I'm talking about before the Morning War.

I'm not sure i understand the point you're trying to make.
If they were willing to commit genocide at the time of the morning war, then theoretically they would have been willing to do it before then as well.

The Quarians committed a crime by a sentient AI. They then tried to fix that crime. That might not be viewed as genocide.

[Exile Isan]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
I will take that as legitimate proof. But on the other hand, it still doesn't mean they are not a bigger threat.

Here watch this if you want to see the actual conversation.

[Pro_Consul]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

The Quarians haven't been around for only three centuries. What about before then?

Before then they were developing a system of morality in which the appropriate reaction to the discovery of a newly born form of sentient life was apparently to try to exterminate it. At the outset of the war they apparently thought genocide was acceptable. During the war they were relentlessly aggressive in the attempts to execute their genocidal plan, almost to the point of their own extinction. And now, 300 years later, they are STILL looking for ways to renew and complete their genocidal plans.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again: on an individual basis Quarians are capable of being wonderful people, e.g. Tali and Reegar. They are also capable of being suicidally genocidal idiots, e.g. Tali's father. As a species, however, they seem to lean far more to the latter than the former.